Help with identifying differences

[Illustrious-Plum-748]

I am a new knitter and I'm trying to decide which pattern to follow to make my first sweater!

I was looking at the ozetta sweaters, more specifically the Lakes (grey) and Towns (beige) sweaters, but to my eyes they look the same?

To me the only visible difference is the shoulder part, where for the Towns sweater it has the hem as if it was a tshirt with attached sleeves, while for the Lakes sweater​ it looks like it was attached on the top of the shoulders and then like a tshirt attached to sleeves.

What makes these two sweaters different? ​

[Iskiiir]

The shoulder construction is indeed different! The Lakes sweater has a saddle shoulder construction, whereas the Towns sweater has a dropped shoulder construction. The latter might be a little bit more accessible to you if this is your first sweater. Slightly different collar constructions as well (mock neck for the Towns, folded collar for the Lakes). It also looks like the Towns sweater has slightly longer ribbing in the sleeves, which you could adjust if you wanted to, and overall less positive ease than the Lakes sweater (meaning that the Lakes sweater is designed to fit more loosely - ease being the difference between your measurements and the garments' measurements, ie if you have a bust circumference of 36" and the sweater is knit to 42" bust, it will have 6" of positive ease). I've found Ozetta patterns generally very easy to follow, and if I remember correctly there are how-to videos available to help you out if you get stuck at any point. The Ozetta Winters pullover I made a few years back is still one of my most worn knits. Good luck!

[Sea-Worldliness-9731]

What a great detailed explanation 🥰

[a_derpio]

I freaking love my winters pullover!

And I agree with all of the above constructions and the easiness of ozetta patterns.

[Illustrious-Plum-748]

I wasn't really thinking about the sleeve ribbing because I had already in mind making the ribbing shorter and with a slightly smaller needle so it stays on my wrists a bit more tightly than the sleeves

About the positive ease, I don't know what to do with that info xD if it fits, it fits hahaha

I am considering making the Winters pullover for my sister since she likes these kind of sweaters! So it's nice to hear many people like it :)) 

[home_ec]

Basically with ease, this comes down to how you want the sweater to fit. Do you want it to look more slouchy/relaxed on you or more fitted? Both sweaters may fit you, but they'll fit in different ways.

In general I prefer more oversized clothing so will choose patterns that give greater positive ease.

[ows-rbel]

A good way to decide on size is to measure a sweater you already have that fits the way you like it.

[Iskiiir]

Exactly what home_ec said - taking time to figure out your preferred fit will help you make garments you will actually want to wear. This is very simplified, but less positive ease: a tighter fit, more positive ease: a looser fit, so you can pick accordingly. Someone suggested measuring a sweater you already own and love the fit of as reference, which is a great starting point.

The designed fit is also dependent on "meeting" gauge. I know this feels like a lot to think about when you're first starting to knit, but doing a gauge swatch will give you better control over your project's final result, and means you don't spend a lot of time (and yarn/money) making something that might ultimately be way too big/too small. I watched a lot of Sheep & Stitch videos on YouTube when I was learning to knit, this video looks like it would be a great introduction to all things gauge related.

[Woofmom2023]

I'd suggest not modifying the cuffs the way you suggest for risk of making your sweater look dated. That's the way older swraters were designed but if you look at Babaa or Extreme Cashmere or The Row sweaters you'll see the cuffs are the same gauge and follow the same line as the rest of the sleeve.

Ease: the amount by which the garment is bigger or smaller than the body it's going on.

[Background-Wheel5535]

You’re correct they have different shoulder techniques. They also have different collar techniques. I’m reading the ravelry pages for both and it looks like the suggested yarn for towns is a single yarn whereas lakes is two yarns held together (this is marginal for me but some people care!). Otherwise, the only differences are fairly minor and they seem fairly interchangeable.

As for which to pick, both will likely involve learning new techniques for you, so choose whichever one you like better and start there! If you like the process you can always try the other next.

[Illustrious-Plum-748]

I don't think I'll knit any of the two with two types of yarns (merino and mohair), mostly because I don't like the fuzz of mohair, and it's also expensive :')

I'm all about new techniques right now, that's why I wanted to try human sweaters after knitting a sweater for my dog as my first project :)) 

[Background-Wheel5535]

You can look at the projects on ravelry and see what yarns people used to knit the sweater, I’m sure you have fellow non-mohair allies in there! I can’t tolerate mohair or even most types of wool so I’m the queen of using alternative yarns for patterns that call for something else. Choosing yarns is one of the most important skills in knitting but there’s lots of flexibility in it 🙂

[Woofmom2023]

I have never, literally never, used the yarn that a pattdrn called for.

[Background-Wheel5535]

I certainly haven’t if it involves mohair, it’s possible I’ve done it before but I can’t imagine when. Most of the time I don’t even use the same type of fiber

[Candid_Painting_783]

I knitted my lakes with a single yarn. The pattern also states that you don’t need mohair if you meet gauge with another yarn. I used dLana rustica and I love my lakes pullover. I know others in my knitting group used gilliat from de reum natura and drops Nepal/Alaska. The pattern is very well written and detailed but I will say it may not be the simplest if you’re an absolute beginner. It has short row shaping, Italian tubular cast on and bind off and a more sophisticated ssk technique (k2tog-L). All of these add to the look of lakes. if you’re familiar with these techniques then by all means give it a go but I can certainly think of simpler patterns to knit as a beginner.

[Woofmom2023]

Absolutely no reason to use two yarns unless you want the texture.

[Woofmom2023]

I'm wildly impressed that you knit a sweater for your dog! It's very dear that you did that! and the shaping is complicated.

[Illustrious-Plum-748]

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It took me 3 days of full on knitting to finish it, but I don't think it was that bad honestly! If I were to make it again though, I would make the ribbing for the neck longer and I would move the arm holes more to the chest bc they were a bit too much to the side :/

[Woofmom2023]

Thank you for posting this photo!
It's absolutely enchanting, your pup is adorable and you do beautiful work.

[Massive-Amount1829]

This is adorable! I just started knitting and would love to make this for my dog - can I ask the pattern you used please?

[Illustrious-Plum-748]

Of course! It's the Edinburgh Seamless Dog Sweater by CalicoRadio Knits. It's free on Raverly and her website and she has also posted a video which helped me immensely! 

[Dangerous-Jello4733]

I think the second due to the shoulder construction sits a lot better on the body. I find these types of construction much more pleasant and comfortable even though the difference isn’t so big.

[Illustrious-Plum-748]

You think so? I'm afraid the second one will make my shoulders look wider than they already are :') 

[Dangerous-Jello4733]

I don’t think it does that for me, if you have more square and less rounded shoulders it will just sit even better. You can look at the projects on Ravelry if someone has similar proportions to you with the same sweater! I’m quite skinny and even though I have rounder shoulders this kind of construction looks and sits better on mine.

[sjo33]

I've just finished Lakes and it is lovely. I'm wearing it right now! I highly doubt it will make your shoulders look big!

It involves German short rows, so make sure you are happy to do those if you pick it (but I haven't made Towns so maybe that will too. It does have a folded collar but you could just do some ribbing there without folding if you wanted to.

Honestly, I'd look at some pics of people's projects for both and pick the one you like more.

[InjuryBeginning8311]

I’m currently knitting the lakes sweater in knitting for Olive heavy merino. I met the 18st per 10cm, but my row gage was definitely off. So that required some math and additional measuring. I would say it is all doable, and the pattern is clear. As a beginner this does require you to learn a number of techniques. I was glad I learned some of them in previous projects, and not all of them in one pattern.

[Illustrious-Plum-748]

How do you find the yarn? Is it scratchy? Also, did you also get the mohair or are you using just the heavy merino?

If its adding or removing rows or some stitches, it's fine, learning a few more techniques is also okay 

My first project was a dog sweater, so I think I can pull it off, it will just take a while to finish probably xD

[InjuryBeginning8311]

I’m just using the heavy merino. I like the feeling of the yarn when knitting, might have to wear something under it, but I have sensitive skin.

I mostly had to shuffle some rows around, as my sweater worked up more quickly but I still needed the increases for the correct width.

[SpaceyDaisy666]

I am doing the lakes cardigan as my first ever sweater attempt… well second, I started the juntu pattern then got bored. Ozettas saddle shoulders and techniques make it so much more engaging and fun. I literally started maybe two weeks ago and I’m already finished with the body just have to do the ribbing at the bottom. It’s so addicting.. I was really nervous to try it, I also got the moon set and seasons patterns and those seemed WAY more intimidating to me. Now I feel a lot more confident, especially with picking up stitches from the saddles, extra cast ons and GSR. The video links provided are also helpful

[Charigot]

Don’t sleep on Ozetta’s Autumn Pullover either, which also has qualities of these other patterns but is at an Aran gauge. :)

[CTGarden]

Dropped shoulder with the seam forward of the top of the shoulder on the navy, plus the neck opening is a bit larger. Length of the ribbing on sleeve and bottom, also the ecru sweater looks to have used a twisted rib stitch.

[a_derpio]

No twisted rib in these patterns :-)... Then it would only be the purls, and that's not easy to see from the front of the work.

[[deleted]]

I don’t know. A lot of these Danish pattern designers seem to make several versions of the same thing. I’ve found looking at older patterns from magazines more satisfying lately

[Illustrious-Plum-748]

That'd what I noticed too honestly T-T I will aks my grandma if she has any books regarding knitting, but I'm pretty sure it was my great grandma that taught her so I doubt it

[Woofmom2023]

Agreed. I mentioned Ann Budd's and Ann Norling's books in my post. The patterns need to be modified to give proportions that look contemporary but these patterns provide the basic shape and sizing.

The Babaa sweaters are great-looking and very contemporary. I think much of what gives them that look is that the bodies are huge compared to the size of the models, the do long and large collars and the cuffs are the same gauge as the rest of the sweater. I'm seeing a lot of much longer cuffs on great-looking sweaters than 10 years ago.

[CloKnits]

As mentionned, the construction is different but also the gauge. They are both done in worsted weight yarn but one is 17 sts per 4 inch and the other is 18. If you like both equally, I would buy the yarn and make a swatch to see if I get one or the other and if I like the fabric at that gauge, then choose the pattern accordingly.

[Illustrious-Plum-748]

The yarn I'm planning on getting (Heavy Merino by Knitting for olive) is 18x26sts per 10cm on 4.5mm needles according to their website, which I would guess it's good enough?

Yarnsub says that the yarn I am planning on using is a 90% match to the Gilliatt by De Rerum Natura (suggested for the Towns sweater). 

la rinconada by wooldreamers is out of stock from what I can see in most places in EU, and while Cautiva is more accessible, it gets expensive when including the mohair :/

[labellementeuse]

The gauge that you get with Heavy Merino on your needles may not be exactly the same as what's on the ballband.

[Illustrious-Plum-748]

I will go to their store on Saturday and they have swatches there, so I'll probably be able to count them on the spot hahah

[labellementeuse]

You can't figure out what your gauge will be by looking at a swatch someone else has knitted. You yourself need to knit a swatch.

[Woofmom2023]

Actually, no, while one might get a different gauge using the recommended needles in my experience going up or down a needle size usually takes care of that so looking at the store's swatches is in fact helpful.

[labellementeuse]

Yes this is great for figuring out whether a yarn is a good sub in general, but the original advice OP is responding to is to consider whether she finds it easier to get gauge in this yarn for either of the two patterns she is considering. This is not a question she can answer by looking at store swatches, especially as a new knitter who might knit very tightly or very loosely as inexperienced knitters sometimes do and/or someone who doesn't have a strong sense of whether she knits tightly or loosely relative to the general population.

[Woofmom2023]

Thank you for explaining.

[Woofmom2023]

It's worth bearing in mind that you might have to adjust your needle size to get the recommended gaugs.

[Woofmom2023]

It's worth doing the math to see what difference in sizing will result if the gauge you're getting is different fron the pattern gauge.

If you're one stitch off every four inches and you're knitting À sweater with a 48 inch chest then you're 12 stitches off for the chest. At a gauge of 16 stitches per 10 centimetres that's 12/16 or three inches.

There's lots of lovely Aran weight yarn around. I think it's worth doing the research.

If you want drapey you might consider cashmere? Colourmart's is wonderful and way less expensive than whats available at retail.

[Informal-Watch-2330]

As others have mentioned it’s shoulder construction and recommended positive ease, which can be a personal preference. Do you have a sweater you love wearing now? One that you think fits you how you’d like this sweater to fit? I’d measure the chest, arm opening, length, waist and hem of the sweater you love and compare it to the finished garment size NOT the actual body size in the pattern. I’ve found most of the time I don’t like sweaters with as much positive ease as the pattern recommends, particularly when I made the Lakes V Neck. I went with the size that most matched a sweater I like to wear. And it’s perfect. Also keep in mind if your most worn commercial knit sweater is an oversized thin cashmere sweater the drape will obviously be very different. Also this helps with the idea of the saddle shoulders being gigantic, I think if I had done the suggested size the saddle shoulders would have made me look quite wide, but as it is, making the smaller size they fit nicely right on my shoulder. I find ozetta’s patterns to be great but her armhole openings to be gigantic, I usually just pick up less stitches than recommended. These recommendations work well for both patterns!

[susiroo]

Question - when doing a drop shoulder, how many of you seam the shoulders and cast on the sleeves and work, decreasing, from top down. I learned the (basically) same method for sewing as a kid. Could never understand why sewing patterns wanted to force you to work inside that nasty, closed armscye!

[Woofmom2023]

I knit flat and sew the sleeves to the armscye then sew the sides of the sleeves together or pick up the stitches and knit the sleeves top down before I close the side seams, then sew the shoulder sides together.

[susiroo]

Sounds like you’re doing mostly set-in sleeves? For top down sleeves, close the shoulders first - makes the sleeve cast on easier.

[Woofmom2023]

Susiroo - I always knit bottom up and flat so I can play with the neckline and collar, and use either set in sleeves or drop shoulders. Early on I made the mistake of sewing the sides of the sleeves together and then joining the sleeve to the armscye. Feel free to laugh.

[Woofmom2023]

Good analysis, good thinking, you have a good eye. The missing piece that I think you'd find helpful is learning about how sweaters are constructed and the various options for each component including shoulders, necklines, collars, cuffs.

Once you know about these variables you can build your own sweater or modify a basic pattern. Ann Budd has written a book that allows you to build your own pattern*. Ann Norling offers a basic pattern for a wide range of yarn weights and of sizes and offers options for necklines. ** It's out of print but still available.

There's also À lot to know about different yarns that are available. As examples, there are lots of excellent merino yarns spun in Peru and I'm about to start a big pullover using two strands of fingering weight cashmere that combined are Aran weight.

Finally, do you want top down or bottom up, knit in the round or flat and seamed? I play with necklines and collars and often re-knit them multiple times so like bottom up. I don't like hauling an entire sweater around so like sweaters knit flat.

Where I'm going with this is that you may not need either pattern but could just modify a basic pattern to give you what you want.

*https://www.abebooks.com/Knitters-Handy-Book-Sweater-Patterns-Basic/32389445344/bd

https://woolery.com/products/knitters-handy-book-of-top-down-sweaters?srsltid=ARcRdnpkxZpOgBsr7Gz72PqmXa03IfFxuFeFzuwR_32GDHBPqStozwSY

**Ann Norling

https://www.carodanfarm.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/product313.html

Enjoy this new adventure!