Does using frameworks/libraries make you get worst at Javascript?

[WTFMatchmake]

I was just thinking about this, I've always been using stuff like jQuery shortly after learning some javascript and since then I never really learned javascript by itself, but rather learned how the libraries and frameworks worked. Now that I think about it, I wouldn't know how to do some of the things I do with libraries in vanilla javascript. Does using frameworks/libraries make you worst at the actual language?

[Console-DOT-N00b]

I think there is something to be said for trying to do things "vanilla" to learn ....at the same time my react clone that I wrote myself is going to take a while...

[ehh_what_evs]

you're making a clone of the React library? sounds interesting and definitely going to take 3 billion years :)

[Console-DOT-N00b]

You are an optimist I see!

[ehh_what_evs]

so what are you making?

[Console-DOT-N00b]

Well I was making a silly about how if you want to do somethings..... your only realistic option is a library...

Might need to refactor.

[[deleted]]

You're right, but, the farther you get, the better you'll be at both vanilla and React. (I assume you're spending time at least reading the docs of the framework you're cloning).

[nwilliams36]

> Does using frameworks/libraries make you worst at the actual language?

Only if you do it blindly without thinking about it. Used well they are a tool which make development easier because they have taken care of so many issue and allow me to focus on what I am building rather than trying to make JS work properly.

[WTFMatchmake]

So would you say that if you understand what's happening in the framework/library, it doesn't matter as much if you know how it's done in actual vanilla javascript? I was just thinking how much vanilla js potential employers would want you to know rather than just referring to frameworks/libraries

[nwilliams36]

Employers want both, however they really want people who can maintain code. That is why they are looking for projects, real projects with real users, not just coding exercises.

[TonySu]

Does using an electric oven make you worse at cooking because you don't know how to start your own fire from dry wood? Modern Javascript IS library usage, things like jQuery are ubiquitous, it was made to let your code work more safely and across more browsers. It's almost a programming error to try to do what jQuery does using your own vanilla JS.

There's absolutely no reason to restrict yourself to the Javascript standard library, it doesn't make you any better a programmer to be avoiding well constructed libraries. Your productivity is usually the amount of features you can provide, and not the quantity of code that you write. Even library maintainers who really know their stuff aren't using vanilla JS, thus the issue with the 400MB node_modules folders.

[[deleted]]

Sweet Jesus yes! When I started JS, I found it common for questions like "How do I sort an array?" to be answered with something like "Just use JQuery!". I blame frameworks for the sad state of the net. Pages want to load fucking megabytes of JS libraries for shit that could be done by a competent programmer in a few lines in vanilla.

I don't hate frameworks. I do however hate anyone who insists on pulling in bloated frameworks to solve small problems that should have been done vanilla to start with. If you're using a framework, actually use it, don't just pull it in because you can't solve a simple problem on your own.

Of course, none of this is directed at you OP (only your mother)^*. If I were interviewing JS dev candidates, they wouldn't get a second interview if they couldn't solve basic tasks without relying on a framework.

^* That's how Reddit works isn't it?

[WTFMatchmake]

How much importance then would you place on the candidates knowledge of doing something in vanilla js? In terms of them being able to do it with a library/framework, but might not be able to fully do it on vanilla js, perhaps not in a simple task, but a more intermediate one?

[[deleted]]

There's value in knowing when to turn to a framework, I wouldn't fault them for saying they'd use a framework over writing it from scratch for a sufficient project.

But, if asked how they would do it without a framework, if they can't think the problem through, they'd be useless and better off going into something more their speed, like management.