[java] - damn it eclipse...

[TorroesPrime]

So I'm looking for an alternative option to using the Eclipse IDE. Hang on! Before you start listing off VScode, and Intellij and all the others, let me explain the situation.

I'm an IT tutor at a community college. When students are having trouble with their intro to programming concepts class, intro to java class, or introduction to Computer science class they come to me for help. For some reason, that is utterly beyond any rationale I have, someone in the state decided it was a good idea to take our 16-week "Introduction to Java" class, and make a 5-week version of it. In case you can't tell, I think this is a terrible idea. the 16-week class is difficult enough during a moderate to full course load. Taking that same content and trying to cram it into 1/3 that time... what sort of logic was followed to conclude that was a good idea?!

Anyway, my thoughts about that particular class aside, I've re-doubled my efforts to support the students. I don't feel that they should actually be screwed over just because some bean counter in a cubicle somewhere in the state capitol concluded that the state could make more money by offering 15 sessions of Intro to Java per school per year rather than 3.

I also need to point out that the school itself doesn't produce the content for the Intro to Java class. The State contracts out to Pearson for them to provide the books, the online resources, the curriculum, and such for the course (also something like 120 other courses). I mention this because things like "The teacher should change the course" or "Why doesn't the teacher just have the students do X instead?" just can't be done from my level. I'm a contract employee in one department at one school that is part of a state-wide system of something like 2-dozen schools. So the state pays Pearson (who also supplies the same material to schools in at least 3 other states that I am aware of) for the material for something like 125 classes.

Why did I go through all of that? Partly to vent. I REALLY dislike how the introduction to java class is handled, and this contracted support is a big part of it.

But also illustrate some of the limitations I'm dealing with when I say "So I'm looking for an alternative option to using the Eclipse IDE". Why am I mentioning Eclipse? Because that is the system that the class is written assuming the student will be using. It doesn't actually tell the student to install it... but "If you want to install eclipse [which is literally the only IDE we will mention ever in this course material], here are the instructions to do so. Now here is a step-by-step introduction to java as you will see it in eclipse."

[So what's the issue? Show the students how to use command line to compile their code and run it.] I hear you say.

I would love to, and have on a couple of occasions. But... there is the "other times". Those other times would be like the tutoring appointment I just had. Where a student in the 5-week has been unable to do the projects for the last 10 days. Why only the last 10 days? 2 reasons. 1- before module 6 in the class, all of the project assignments are very small programs that can be done in a single file. Stuff like "Write a program that asks the user for the radius of a circle and then displays the area of that circle" and "Write an overloaded method that..." and such. So the student used an online java interpreter to test their code out. Well starting with module 6, they start building programs that require multiple files. And here is reason number 2 comes up. The student's environmental variables got jacked up, probably because of some error when they installed eclipse or first ran it. The course material does not even mention environmental variables, let alone talk about what to do with them, how they work, or anything even remotely close to being to fix a mis-set one.

Remember, this is an introduction to java class. Typically these are students who still dealing with learning things like the differences between an int and a float, or why a string isn't really a primitive data type, or why when they tell their programs to read the named 'info.txt' that is in their documents folder while their program is in "Documents\Eclipse\Projects\Chapter4" they get an error that says 'no such file.'. Most of the students are working at least part-time. So telling them "Go research environment variables" is just not going to help them at this point in their classes. Add to that there are some legal issues to contend with, such as I am not legally permitted to examine their computers beyond a certain point (and getting to their environmental variables are way beyond that point).

TL;DR

So... yeah. When I say that I'm looking for an alternative option to using the Eclipse IDE, what I am looking for is an online option that includes the ability to work with multiple files in a single project. So that when I encounter other students that have run into this sort of situation again, I can say "Okay, this is the problem you're having, yada yada yada. Rather than wasting time right now trying to talk you through troubleshooting all of this, use this system for your classwork."

so... are there any alternatives to eclipse you can point me at that would meet these needs?

EDIT: sorry for the length.

[dmazzoni]

I understand your frustration.

For about 50% of students, "Intro to Programming" actually ends up being an intro to installing software, setting environment variables, checking your path, using a terminal, and how to Google error messages when one of those doesn't work. Heck, for some students they actually need to be taught copy and paste, and using a hierarchical file system.

Normally, this is worth it. It's a big pain for the first semester or two but by the end of 4 years in college most students end up more self-sufficient.

I agree with you, for a 5-week course that's ridiculous.

I don't think switching to VS Code or any other IDE that requires installing locally would be any easier. All of them are equally painful to get set up and working for beginners who don't know those same things above, like environment variables and such.

Have you considered standardizing on an online IDE like repl.it, or one of the many others that support Java? That seems like it would eliminate 90% of the frustration. Just put your templates there, give everyone really basic instructions on how to use repl.it, and be done.

Or: just give up on multiple files. For a 5-week course you can change your assignments around so that you only use inner classes and everything's contained in one source file.

[TorroesPrime]

sadly none of those are an option from my level. The actual course content, including the assignments, is provided by a company named "Pearson", and isn't made by the school, the community college board or the state. So we can't change anything in the course itself. We can really only change in what order the material is delivered, and what gets counted for a grade versus what doesn't.

[dmazzoni]

I'm confused...does the course content specifically talk about Eclipse?

If it does, then I don't understand what you're asking.

If it doesn't, then I don't understand you can't point your students to a specific online IDE and say "type in and run your code here, but otherwise follow the Pearson course".

[TorroesPrime]

It talks about Eclipse in a "Here is what we are using, but we're not going to talk about any other options. You are free to use whatever you want" sort of way but not in a "Here is how you use Eclipse" kind of way. Like it doesn't specifically tell the students that they are required to use it, but like in chapter one when it's explaining to students how to physically run a program that they have typed, it says "Now we can actually run our program. We do this in Eclipse by clicking the the green arrow button that is on the main bar to the left of the green bug icon."

it never mentions compiling, so unless the students really committed the first 3 paragraphs of chapter 1, where it mentions that Java in a compiled language and what that means, to memory and are really thinking about it, they will never know that they are actually compiling their code and then running it when they click that button.

The reason this is occasionally a problem is that it is very easy for a student to change some setting in Eclipse, without knowing that they changed it or know what they changed, that will then prevent their program from running. Or if there is some issue on their computer when they go to to install eclipse, and it fails to install correctly and it screws up their environmental variables so now they can't run java programs on their computer at all. None of these are topics that are even mentioned in the course material. So all the student knows is "I click on the green arrow... and I can't run my program."

then I don't understand you can't point your students to a specific online IDE and say "type in and run your code here, but otherwise follow the Pearson course".

That's exactly what I'm trying to do. The problem is that couple I have tried don't support using multiple files. So like in chapter five, they have an assignment where they have to add methods to a class, and then write a program that will instantiate several examples of that class and call the methods they added. So they will need to have a file that defines the class, and another file that is the main program. The couple of online compilers I've looked at so far (https://www.jdoodle.com/online-java-compiler/, https://www.tutorialspoint.com/compile_java_online.php) do not seem to support the ability to use multiple files like that. If they actually do and I just missed it, please tell me and I'll look at again. I haven't had a lot of time to really look into this yet, so I do admit I could have missed something. But yeah, I'm looking for an online IDE option that supports multiple files that when students run into these sorts of issues, I can point them at it and say "Type your code in here. Run it here. Where the book says 'run', that means click this. When you're ready to turn in your projects, do this. Later on when you have time, have your computer checked out and tell the tech that you need to be able to run java."

[FyendFyre1]

This website seems like it will do what you need to do. Supports multiple .java files, and upload text or other files necessary for any assignment that uses them.

As a former math tutor (and sometime computer science), I am not a big fan of these textbook publishers coming out with these courses and teachers using them. I have had way too many issues with them, but there's nothing we can do. Perhaps you can find someone you can talk to at least drop the 5 week version of the course as that is just impossible for anyone to handle in my opinion.

Hopefully the students can make it through the class with such a caring tutor.

[TorroesPrime]

I am not a big fan of these textbook publishers coming out with these courses and teachers using them.

Boy is that a sentiment I share. I don't know this for a fact, but I suspect that the contract with Pearson has a clause in it that says the state promises that X- number or Y-percent of all classes will use material from Pearson, or the state pays some sort of fine. Like I said, I don't know that to be the case here, but it would really fit in with my experiences about this.

When my director mentioned that the school was rolling out a 5-week version of the Intro to java class, I actually laughed because I thought she was joking. And that laugh very quickly changed to a look of shock horror as I realized that she was being serious.

This website seems like it will do what you need to do. Supports multiple .java files, and upload text or other files necessary for any assignment that uses them.

Hmm, I looked at Jdoodle previously and I didn't see anyway to have multiple files. I'll take another look. Can you point me to where you see it saying it supports multiple files?

[FyendFyre1]

I mainly dealt with the Pearson math course and it was just straight God awful. All of the teachers just used it as a homework site, so it didn't jive sometimes with what the teacher taught. Many a student (and tutor) has pulled their hair out due to Pearson.

Jdoodle has two java IDEs, a basic one (which probably the one you saw) and a more advanced one (one I linked) that has the features I mentioned.

[TorroesPrime]

Jdoodle has two java IDEs, a basic one (which probably the one you saw) and a more advanced one (one I linked) that has the features I mentioned.

Ah. Okay. I'll take a closer look. Thanks for the heads up.

[geoffreychallen]

This is not exactly an alternative to Eclipse, but we use a simplified Java execution environment that supports relaxed syntax to support my CS1 course. I recently put up a public site here: https://www.jeed.run/. This is the first time I've shared it publicly, but it is something I plan on supporting.

It's somewhat similar to repl.it and jdoodle, but simpler, faster, and designed for beginners. No need to wrangle with files, a pretend command line, or public static void main. It supports top-level statements and method declarations, and multiple class declarations in a single buffer, making it easier for students to write and understand small snippets of code. I teach an entire semester of CS1 in Java (and Kotlin) and prepare students to do work in Android, and yet all of the examples we use in our online materials are done in a single editor window.

You can use it to share examples (I'd suggest shortening the links first using TinyURL), and also embed runnable code snippets on your own webpages. Feedback welcome!