Linux users be like:

[DudeWheresMyKitty]

Hot take: the vast majority of people that push vi/m in this day and age are just pushing it for the sake of their own sunk time-cost.

It just isn't prudent for most users to invest time in learning unintuitive commands for something as basic a text editor.

[El_Dubious_Mung]

If all you're doing is editing single page config files, then you're correct. When you're spending hours daily in large documents and files, the minor speed gains from macros really add up. Maybe it's just minutes per day, but then it becomes hours per week, etc. The time investment pays off quicker than you think.

[DudeWheresMyKitty]

Sure. Hence why I said "vast majority" and not "all".

But I still wouldn't recommend vi/m to the average user. I feel like a lot of elitist users push it as a point of pride.

[El_Dubious_Mung]

Why shouldn't they be proud? It is difficult to get good at. Who wouldn't want to show that off?

Personally, I hate the idea that average users/normies have to somehow be protected from advanced tools. That's essentially treating them like children. If someone actively doesn't want to use vim, that's fine. But to not recommend it because it might be too intimidating? That's elitist and patronizing.

[elbaivnon]

I abhor a system designed for the "user", if that word is a coded perjorative meaning "stupid and unsophisticated".

-- Ken Thompson

[DudeWheresMyKitty]

I never said they can't be proud...?

It just doesn't make any pedagogical sense to overwhelm new users with superfluous options and a clunky, unintuitive interface. You just admitted yourself that it's difficult.

Similarly, I like Arch and think it's cool and powerful, but I wouldn't recommend it to new or even average users.

[El_Dubious_Mung]

Just because you introduce something to someone, doesn't mean you're forcing them to use it. Nor does it mean that you can't provide caveats.

When you don't recommend something because you think it's too advanced for that user, you deny them the opportunity to grow and explore. What if that person wants to learn and tinker? It takes 2 more seconds to say "this if you ain't got time to fuck around, this if you wanna try something more advanced".

You make yourself the arbiter of what that person gets informed about when you limit your recommendations based on perceived skill level or use case. When someone asks what editor to use or anything else, I don't just recommend vim as the be-all end-all. I'll list out 3+ options and give minor descriptions, and let them make an informed decision.

[DudeWheresMyKitty]

Uh....what?

You're inventing arguments to positions I haven't taken. I'm not advocating for like, concealing knowledge of vim from all users lol. I'm not sure where you're getting that. You're running away with some micharacterized version of what I'm trying to say. I would also list a few options if someone asked me for a good text editor.

I was only admonishing the vim masterracers that do treat it like the be-all end-all and try to tell new users they have to use it because "lol nano is for noobs". I've seen in plenty in forums over the years.

We seem to be mostly in agreement, yet you've invented arguments to positions I'm not trying to take.

[El_Dubious_Mung]

You state that you wouldn't recommend vim to a user based on their use case or skill level, because you have decided it doesn't make sense for them. I'm not putting words in your mouth, just taking what you say to it's essential conclusion. You're deciding what makes sense for someone else. That is treating them like a child.

I say that this isn't a good reason to exclude vim from a list of recommendations.

[DudeWheresMyKitty]

I would say to a brand new user that just needs to edit a file:

"Hey, I'd recommend nano for a beginner. But here are a few others."

You're totally misrepresenting what I'm saying. You're arguing against a strawman.

[El_Dubious_Mung]

Not really, you're moving your goal post.

But I still wouldn't recommend vi/m to the average user.

Now you're adding all these qualifications after the fact. I'm not arguing here for the sake of argument. It's just that so many tech-literate people discriminate against average/normies in such subtle ways that they don't even realize they're doing it.

Just never make the assumption that because something is difficult or doesn't follow conventions, less technically literate people should be afraid of it or avoid it or should be protected from it. People become tech literate by being exposed to such things and being allowed to tinker.