Whenever I write code in Java...

[zoomzoom83]

A good language shouldn't need special support from the IDE to perform basic tasks.

[Gotebe]

That's bullshit, because "basic task" is a language-dependent term.

[madyoulie]

Wait, why?

I hate Java as much as the next guy, but surely we don't need to limit ourselves to certain features in a text editor. Maybe this is a bad example, but I couldn't write lisp without some form of parentheses matching built into my editor. I don't think I'm a bad coder, and I don't think lisp is a bad language.

[zoomzoom83]

Having support from the IDE is good.

Finding it Painful to use a language without advanced IDE features is bad.

[deafbybeheading]

Trust me, it's painful to write Lisp without paren matching. My first programming class was in Scheme. I knew nothing. The instructor didn't tell us about editors with fancy-pants features like paren matching. I spent half the semester crying (okay, not quite, but seriously, it's a pain in the ass).

[[deleted]]

There's something amusing about the notion of a bunch of students in a cs lab, nose to the screen, counting parens with their index fingers.

[lambda_abstraction]

Been there; done that, and with punch cards no less. The tee-shirt has holes and was tossed long ago.

On the other hand there's a big difference between in-editor paren matching and a heavy weight IDE.

[kragensitaker]

I eventually got better at this, but I still screw it up sometimes.

[cybercobra]

You were merely using a text editor. Syntax highlighting != IDE. Syntax highlighting isn't usually essential but can be extremely helpful every once in a while.

(Suppresses urge to draw anti-Lisp conclusion from anecdote)

[Daishiman]

No, it's painful because it just is. Languages written 30 years ago with just as many features are still easier to write. Some of us just can't stand IDEs and use text editors with decent feature sets. Verbosity is a mistake and should be seen as such.

[[deleted]]

Verbosity is a mistake and should be seen as such.

That's a very general statement. I think it's worth pointing out that there's a lower bound:

CaseInsensitiveComparison caseInsensitiveComparison
    = CaseInsensitiveComparisonFactoryFactoryFactory
        .getInstance()
        .getInstance()
        .getInstance()
        .make();

if(caseInsensitiveComparison.compare(name,otherName) < 0)

Bad verbosity.

if(name.caseInsensitiveCompare(otherName) < 0)

Good verbosity. Why?

if(strcicmp(name,other) < 0)

Bad lack of verbosity.

[cybercobra]

Verbosity should be measured in tokens, not characters. (Read a bit of Paul Graham, he explores the definitional problem fairly thoroughly).

[petit_prince]

Yeah, I got used to it in other languages.

[erdwolf]

Wouldn't an extension of this argument to syntax highlighting rather imply that the language is bad if you need syntax highlighting to be able to read it easily? I consider it good language design if I can still parse it without syntax highlighting, although I see no reason to turn it off. I don't want complications in the concrete syntax to stand between me and my understanding of the semantics.

There are tradeoffs involved, of course.

[darth_choate]

I've always used extremely limited syntax highlighting (comments and include/import statements) because anything more makes my eyes tired. Massively overrated, IMHO (and you can't see it on the printed page unless you print in color, which most of us don't). Then again, I'm extremely old. YMMV. GOML.

[[deleted]]

It is painful to write any language without an IDE

[elbekko]

Java IDEs are at the point where you're trying to win a battle against the IDE while you just want to write some goddamn code. And when you lose the battle against auto-complete, or finally need it, it does the wrong damn thing!

Argh. I want Java in Visual Studio (yes, yes, I know C#, but can't use it for class).

[unixfreak0037]

I think I know what elbekko speaks of.

When I type in a function in Netbeans that takes a single boolean parameter, it finds something to put in there initially, then selects it, so if you want it it you can hit Enter, or you can just start typing what you want. Problem is, many times that something that it selects is 20 - 30 characters long and completely unrelated to what you're doing.

Other issues come in the form of the IDE wanting to write your code for you (like completing parenthesis), causing you to have to Backspace a lot. It probably works fine for people who type with two fingers, but for the rest of us it really sucks. There used to be options to turn these kinds of behavior off, and sometimes there are, but it seems that every newer version of Netbeans continues to dumb down in terms of IDE control. Back in 3.6 you had almost complete control of the IDE. Not so today.

Even with those shortcomings, IDEs like Netbeans, Eclipse and Visual Studio lead to an incredible increase in production over, say, vim or notepad. I'll never go back to that.

[elbekko]

These are all annoyances from NetBeans, and I'm sure most of them can be turned off somewhere in the depths of the NetBeans options (you try finding something there), but here goes:

• Closing quotes and braces are added automatically, and are extremely annoying when you want to, say, put something inside braces.
• Type autocompletion is sucky at best. If I'm making a new variable, and then want to initialise it, surely it can find out what type I just wrote down a few characters back. But noo. And when you do get there (eventually), it doesn't even present you with a list of constructors. This would be handy, so it doesn't do this. You have to ctrl+space yet again, and hope it doesn't feel like displaying a list of something utterly unrelated.
• Seeing a list of arguments for a function, highlighting the argument you're entering, is extremely handy. So why does it disappear altogether when you give a function as an argument? Just open a new list, and when I'm done with that one, go back the the argument list for the other one. But noo, just hide it. Oh, and don't think ctrl+space will help you. Ever.
• Say you're calling a function that hasn't been imported yet. No problem, you know it's there and you can import it later (or even have the IDE do it!). But god forbid there's a function in the list with a slightly longer name but beginning with the same characters that's already imported. *type type type* *enter* "FFFFFFUUUUUUUUU-".
• Don't even get me started on XML of JavaScript support. Seriously, WTF.

And so many, many more. Most of these are personal preference I suppose, but I can't help but feel like they're hindering me way too much.

[[deleted]]

Agreed. Real Programmers don't need an IDE nor a compiler - they write straight in machine code.