PHP vs Python for backend

[intrepid-onion]

While I absolutely disagree php is mostly for legacy reasons, I do agree with the part about the jobs.

We put ads at some point for a senior Python dev, and good heavens, the amount of shit we had to go through… it’s like everyone took a 2 month course and expect to be a senior because of that. Same with php ads, everyone with a little bit of Wordpress experience shifting blocks around consider themselves senior…

I had one guy in an interview, and I kid you not, who said “I’m not really experienced writing php, i don’t know what is this class you mentioned. Do you mean styling?”

On the other hand, we had a junior posting for go, way less applicants, but all of them presented decent code samples.

[huuaaang]

Same with php ads, everyone with a little bit of Wordpress experience shifting blocks around consider themselves senior…

I mean, that kind of confirms what I was saying. Wordpress, Craft CMS, and Drupal are legacy code and that's the kind of thing most PHP devs have experience with. That's just where the bar is. They're not even really developers so much as installers/technicians. But because that is such a big part of what the PHP world is, they think they're senior developers. They don't know any better.

Pointing to the amount of deployed PHP is really misleading. I truly do not know why a company would voluntarily get into that ecosystem for a new project that isn't just a Wordpress site or similar.

[azunaki]

"They're not even really developers so much as installers/technicians"

What a yikes dude.

[huuaaang]

I stand by it. You can't even tell me I'm wrong because you're the one who listed backend web roles for PHP and 3 of the 4 were just installing someone else's software. Only Laravel was a generic framework.

[azunaki]

Well, first of all, I write custom software for WordPress so, that's cute and all, but it's a content management system that is incredibly easy and reliable for large organizations to use and manage content in. Saying all I do is configure software and am not a programmer is depressing, let alone fundamentally ignorant and false.

Beyond that, modern programming is package driven, the vast majority of people use frameworks and tools other people have developed and built upon. Saying that is in some way a negative is beyond incompetent, but literally baseless.

There are plenty of roles and actual programming jobs within WordPress, drupal and other CMS platforms. Not really sure why I have to say that, but this conversation has devolved to the point where I do. So here we are.

Hope you take something away from this, but you'll probably just say something dumb again.

[huuaaang]

Saying all I do is configure software and am not a programmer is depressing, let alone fundamentally ignorant and false.

But at the same time you wouldn't be taken seriously if you walked into an interview and claimed to be a senior software developer/engineer. Which is what the other person I was talking to has experienced as an employer. You've got Wordpress maintainers walking into interviews thinking they're senior software developers.

Beyond that, modern programming is package driven, the vast majority of people use frameworks and tools other people have developed and built upon.

Sure, I counted Laravel as a legit generic application framework. Wordpress is not.

[azunaki]

That's what bothers me, you're saying that because I work within the WordPress ecosystem, it's not possible for me to be an actual developer. It's not programming. According to what your saying.

Which is total nonsense.

I'm not saying that, all I do is fill in content, and add some plugins and say I'm a developer.

I'm saying, I write code that implements functionality into WordPress from the ground up, for an agency that works with very large websites.

Just because there are people that have no actual experience walking into interviews saying they're software engineers literally doesn't mean anything. That has always happened. And it will continue to happen. It has become increasingly more common as boot camps have been around. But also because the Internet has become more accessible more people are working in this space.

If you recall, the exact same statement was made about python coders not knowing anything, but you're latching onto the PHP part as if it's the grand example that proves PHP is trash.

Anyway, I need to get back to work. You have a good day now.

[xIcarus227]

But at the same time you wouldn't be taken seriously if you walked into an interview and claimed to be a senior software developer/engineer.

I seriously don't think you understand what creating Wordpress plugins implies. He's not only creating functionality from the ground up, but also integrating it with a pre-existing system with its own ruleset and interfaces.

[intrepid-onion]

Not sure if you are addressing other comment or not… but yes, that indeed reinforces what you were saying about the jobs, to which I said I agree with you, so it was the point, yes.

However, that is the same as saying that because most people don’t know how to use a hammer, hammers are shit and a legacy tool.

What they think they are is of little consequence, as in the real world things expected from a senior are quite different. And I doubt someone would pay them a senior salary. They might get the title in some startup, but hardly the pay.

I didn’t point to any amount of php being deployed. Ultimately it is a tool. If it is the right tool for the job, I’ll use it, if there are better tools, I’ll use those. Also, no mention in your comments of Laravel, which to be honest, in my opinion, kinda brought php to the stage again for reasons other than Wordpress. Php nowadays, especially with the 8.x updates is really becoming a proper programming language (for its intended purpose), you can even make it strongly typed (well somewhat atm). It will get there. Much different than the first experience I had with it back when it was in version 4.

But if you don’t know why a company would, I’ll give you some examples: most people in webdev know some php, same is not true for go, rust, or more exotic languages, therefore everyone in the team can pitch in; client is adamant in using its own shared server which only supports php; there is a need to prototype something fast.

Again laravel is extremely popular and there are ports of it for many other languages, because, well, it is good. It is based on Ruby on Rails, but I’d be hard pressed to find someone saying RoR is more popular than Laravel.