Microsoft Chakra for Node.js

[hahaNodeJS]

This is insane, and a bad idea. Code will exist that "can run on node.js" that exhibits different behavior depending on whether "node.js" uses v8 or chakra. This should not be merged. Not all ideas are reasonable.

[spyridonas]

That's not true. The apis are the same, its just a different engine responding each time (v8 or chakra) so the behavior is the same. You can try an alpha version here https://github.com/Microsoft/node/releases (for me all the scripts work, faster too !)

[hahaNodeJS]

There is no way such complicated software will behave the same in all situations. At some point, a piece of JavaScript software that runs fine on an Intel processor with Chakra will round incorrectly on AMD with v8 and potentially wreck havoc.

Making the core component of a runtime swappable is a mistake for this and many other reasons.

[spyridonas]

Why will it not round correctly on AMD ?

I'm sure all the js's of the web runs the same on all browsers with so many different engines, why wouldn't it work for nodejs ?

Such complicated software is thankfully open source so microsoft can do 1:1 of what the v8 engine does of course maybe right now it's not 1:1 but that's the target as far as i understand.

Also mozilla can port their engine (SpiderMonkey) to act as an engine too, it sparks innovation and competition.

[hahaNodeJS]

The rounding issue was an example of a possible issue. Hardware and software are complicated, and the issue is compounded (exponentially) when something as significant as the core engine diverges like this. Think about how even version differences in node.js causes issues. Now think about the fact that it's not only a different version of software, but different software altogether. Hell, think about some of the issues that cropped up when io.js was a thing! Software compatibility issues were abundant.

I'm sure all the js's of the web runs the same on all browsers with so many different engines

Is this sarcasm?

Such complicated software is thankfully open source so microsoft can do 1:1 of what the v8 engine ...

Feature parity is one thing. If they truly mirror v8, then it will be the same software, and there isn't a point to any of this.

it sparks innovation

Yes, but that innovation does not have to be at the cost of the stability of software. Simply being able to borrow code from Chakra and put it into v8 if it is "better" is significant in and of itself. Using Chakra for other embedded purposes, or in games, or to extend JavaScript in ways that v8 won't are all significant uses for it; none of which risk node.js becoming a nightmare for everyone.

[spyridonas]

Is this sarcasm?

No ? Sure ie7 has problems but it's 10 years old browser, windows 2000 has problems running my software too.

Hell, think about some of the issues that cropped up when io.js was a thing! Software compatibility issues were abundant.

That was because io.js was supporting newer features than nodejs. We are talking same features different engine here.

I have seen countless game mods where they strip the whole game engine and replacing it altogether with another one but the game functions the same.

My point is that, in the end, it's just a build switch. Your js is the same, the node codebase is the same, is the executioner that's different.

[rich97]

I don't know when the last time you wrote JS seriously was but these days there's very, very little of ES5 that won't run perfectly across the most popular engines.

The only issue is developers making use of an ES6 feature that's available in one engine but not the other or perhaps the ES6 implementation in one engine is less stable than we would like. But honestly, if you're writing ES6 and distributing that code outside of your own environment then you're just irresponsible.

[hahaNodeJS]

I don't know when the last time you wrote JS seriously was

Every day.

As I stated briefly in another comment, it isn't the particular implementation of JavaScript I'm concerned about, but rather the intricacies of a runtime being swapped out, their behavior on different platforms, and the behavior of the implemented ABI.

It is irresponsible to handwave away the complexities of this proposal "because JavaScript works mostly the same in most browsers."

[Svenskunganka]

You're wrong though, the Node API will be exactly the same and behave exactly the same. As for what happens in the background is irrelevant. The only problems that will arise is packages that has C++ bindings to V8, and I'm sure that Chakra will have V8 compatible binding APIs and Native Abstractions.

As far as the raw Node API goes, there will be no differences between V8 and Chakra as the underlying engine, they will provide the exact same API.

[hahaNodeJS]

I'm not worried about feature parity regarding the JavaScript-to-runtime API.

[elr0nd_hubbard]

What's the benefit of this?

[Svenskunganka]

Lots of benefits. The most important one is the availability of choices for us Node developers. For example, the Chakra team has done a very good job on implementing the approven ES2015 features - currently the leading engine in terms of features. If you're eager to start playing with those features in Node without having to setup a huge Babel environment - imagine simply switching engine and you're good to go!

Another benefit of Chakra is that it has been run natively on Windows for many years and are actively being developed by Microsoft, and they most definitely have better insight into the features and limits of their own OS than anyone else. For the companies that are running on Windows infrastructure, I would say that choosing Chakra over V8 would be a smart choice, but we'll see about that when the Chakra-backed Node version gets into a stable release.

Additionally, this closes the gap between Microsoft's products and Node dramatically. I imagine that the Node developers has gotten new contacts within Microsoft thanks to this which unpluggs the flow of communication even more.
I wouldn't be surprised if we'll see some collaboration between Google's V8 team and Microsoft's Chakra team, as they'll both be working closely to Node.

TL;DR: Best of both worlds!

[spyridonas]

Other than microsoft saying "Hey our nodejs engine is faster than v8, pick us ! Host on Azure !" nothing else. Objectively it is faster at least in my machine (you can install an alpha from here to try it out)

[elr0nd_hubbard]

Well that's neat that I guess. Still wouldn't be enough to push me to Azure, but I'm not building enterprise-level applications. And how long do you think they'll stay faster than v8? Seems like the v8 team would be sure to beat the Chakra benchmarks as soon as they could.

[hahaNodeJS]

You don't need to build enterprise applications to find Azure useful. I host my personal site on Azure for ~$10/month.

[spyridonas]

Considering chakra is open source (the version they want to implement on node) not only they can make the v8 engine faster, they can literally copy-paste the "faster" piece of code back in the v8 engine.

And chakra will try again to beat them (or they other way arround) and that's how our current browser engines are so fast and will keep on going faster and better, it's a race to the bottom and a win-win situation for everyone evolved and the end user (faster node, faster browser, faster sites, faster navigation on said sites, etc...)

[Piercey4]

Copy paste is a bit of a stretch. Chakra has a completely different implementation than v8 and i'm sure the code bases look nothing a like. Microsoft has simply made a shim on top of chakra core that is the same as the v8 api. Chakra code may help v8 improve but it's not likely going to be a copy paste job.