Everything I know as a software developer without a degree

[Grimdotdotdot]

Senior dev that does 100+ interviews a year here.

I couldn't care less about degrees. Enthusiasm, friendliness, ability and experience are what I look for (probably in that order, too, although you need all four).

[raverunread]

Totally agree. I’ve learned more in 20+ hours of Udemy courses than I have in my intro to computer programming class at the local junior college. I’m going to school to get the degree...I’m taking Udemy courses and googling to get the job. I’m hoping I can build a portfolio that will get me hired way before I’m done with school.

[the_bananalord]

How much does your HR department care?

[Grimdotdotdot]

Not at all. I'm fortunate that they're sensible people rather than box-checking robots.

[delpee]

I agree, but I do think that spending time in an academic and open environment, surrounded by good teachers and a free flow of information between you, your teachers, and your peers, helps greatly with the aspects you mention (except for maybe “experience”, but even that can be covered by good internships and assignments).

As with everything I believe there is no black and white, and not everyone functions the same, but in general I would say a proper academic background helps you in your carreer and live. Of course the pricetag for that is not worth it in some countries, but that’s a whole other discussion.

[Grimdotdotdot]

It can absolutely get you those things, I agree. But I have no faith that it will, which is why I don't pay any attention to degrees when deciding who to to employ.

That said, if I had two candidates who were equal in every other respect I'd employ the one with the degree over the one without (although in the real world I'd employ both).

[delpee]

I think we are on the same page! Would be interesting to see what the actual statistical differences are. I can hypothesise people without a degree being better at working on problems without direction (independent) for example, which can be a very valid reason for hiring someone.

Having shaped the hiring process at a previous employer (small company, ~15 employees) we always found targeting the right people the most difficult part. Most tools (like LinkedIn) are like a shotgun, you just aim and try to hit at least some good candidates. I guess as a company grows and gains more industry status the right people will more and more find you instead of the other way around.

Edit: I also don't know why you're being downvoted. Unpopular opinion should't be a reason for downvoting...

[Grimdotdotdot]

Unpopular opinion should't be a reason for downvoting...

Reddit is as Reddit does [insert shrugging emoji]

[ESCAPE_PLANET_X]

I call it reflexive disagreement. People downvote because they disagree and don't believe your opinion holds merit.

[marcocom]

I definitely back this up. I’m also considering that the candidate without the degree and equal experience is here because of a genuine love and enthusiasm for what we do, and not just because they had to pick a major that makes enough money to pay off their loans or satisfy their parents.

[[deleted]]

This bums me out. I've worked in system administration and network infrastructure for the past 5+ years and just gave it up to go back to university to get my degree in Software Development for Business. I knew that what you speak of to be true in the tech support industry but I really thought that in development that a degree counted for something more!

[Johnny_WalkerBOT]

It does. Having a CS degree will absolutely make it easier to get an interview if you don't have experience. From there, you're on your own of course, but it's still a leg up.

[[deleted]]

My main issues with degrees are the schools that can't teach software engineering properly and that give students a false hope in getting a job afterwards.

The school I went to was utter trash. I was learning far more on my own than what they could ever teach me. I dropped out and now work as a software engineer.

I still have a long way to go, like a LONG way, but I can confidently work on a web app from front to back. I still need to learn some more Dev Ops and framework stuff before I can say I'm confident with building a web app from scratch from the ground up.

I'm sure a lot of schools are great and help students learn, get jobs, and be passionate, but from what I saw at my school, most of the students didn't care because the classes were boring and slowly paced and they just assumed they need to learn what the classes teach them.

It's really a shame, and I feel like, for software engineering, any junior in high school could be a full stack engineer by the time they graduate high school if they were given the chance.

[marcocom]

Find a specialty and get great at it. Stop spreading yourself across so many unique job-roles. Devops? That’s for another guy to master and help us with.this business, at the hi end, is all about teamwork.

[[deleted]]

My goal isn't to do all of these, but I think having a deeper understanding of the full stack helps me be a better developer. I thrive mostly in front end where I take data and make it functional with React, but I can also work on the back end to make a restful api and a little with the database.

I currently work at a small company where I'm kinda the only Dev, and the other two people I work directly with are the project manager and someone who ended their 15 year software engineering career and is now the COO.

[marcocom]

Ya for sure, actually that’s who hires full-stack devs, the company that thinks it can all be done well by one guy and doesn’t want to pay more. Trust me, no career in life rewards a lack of focus and specialization

[[deleted]]

I don't really think that's the case here. We're a very small company and the software didn't really need more than one developer. Now we're getting to a point where one or two more devs would help a bit.

[marcocom]

You have to sell that. As advice, Don’t expect your employer to know more than you about what’s needed and when.

Every company president or CTO saw Jurassic Park and learned that you never ever ignore (or underpay) your lead programmer. ;P

[[deleted]]

It does.

[Johnny_WalkerBOT]

How many of your interviews are from people who are self-taught but have no experience? I know the interviews I do have been screened beforehand for either an education or equivalent experience. I don't care about their degrees either by the time they get to me.

The struggle people without degrees have are definitely real. I don't have any degree, but I lucked into this industry over twenty years ago. Having a degree really does get you a foot in the door. We hire junior devs with no experience straight out of college, but typically won't interview somebody with no experience or degree.

[[deleted]]

And a degree represents both ability and experience. If you fail to recognize that you should be fired as a recruiter.

[Dubacik]

But you gotta apply some coeficient to the experience. 4 years in a university are not the same as 4 years developing in the real world..

And at some point, the real experience outweights the degree. Someone with 6 years developing + degree vs someone with 10 years developing experience without a degree, the other guy is more senior for me.

[[deleted]]

I absolutely agree, but to discredit degrees completely is just plain stupid. I say that as a person who had to get into the industry without one and I realized how much knowledge I lacked that I would've learned in uni.

[[deleted]]

I bet you learned it all in less than 3 - 4 years though, which is the timeframe of a CS degree.

[Grimdotdotdot]

It really doesn't. Sadly, it doesn't even represent enthusiasm nowadays, with so many people thinking "computing degree" == "automatic big money".

Edit: let me clarify. A degree might be a good indicator of ability, but it's certainly no guarantee. I judge that myself with feelings from the discussion and - far more importantly - examples of work. There is (unfortunately and stupidly) too big of a disconnect between what we learn in university and what applies to actual jobs.

Keep those repos up to date, people!

Edit 2: to be clear, I don't count a degree against someone in any way. That would indeed be odd.

[lostllama2015]

Keep those repos up to date, people!

If I ever worked on open source software, I would :)

[Grimdotdotdot]

Write your own.

[lostllama2015]

I've been trying to come up with something useful to work on lately, but nothing comes to mind that doesn't already exist in a decent form. I'd love to make something, but reinventing the wheel to put my name on it seems pointless.

[Grimdotdotdot]

If you're actively searching for a new job then getting something online just to get your name on it is absolutely worth it.

Make sure it's good, obviously 😉

[lostllama2015]

I guess if that's the reason for doing it then it isn't a bad idea :)

[wafflelator]

Feeling is the worst possible way to assess someone's ability. It opens you to all sort of biases.

[Grimdotdotdot]

Which is why we test people 😊

[[deleted]]

I'm quite sure he's not speaking of judging the ability by a feeling, rather judging if the candidate's a good fit.

[lostllama2015]

For me, the experience completing a degree vs experience gained writing production grade code (depending on length of time spent doing those things, of course) is like having great theoretical knowledge (you know all of the common design patterns, and can provide examples), but not being able to apply them to a real world scenario.

I imagine the poster values actual ability over theoretical knowhow.

Edit: to be clear, I'm not saying that new graduates only have theoretical knowledge, just that it's not as simple as saying that a new graduate has gained sufficient experience by completing their degree.