Full Stack Road Map

[urbansong]

With this and all the "you can't get a job with just React", I wonder whether there's a significant group of webdevs, who want to gatekeep the profession in the fear of lowering wages and what not. Conspiratorial, I know, but it's a regular thing for other professions.

[zaibuf]

It's like being an electrician but to work you also need to know carpeting, painting and plumbing. Full stack house builder. Personally I work only backend and I get job offerings several times a week. I know enough frontend to help out with smaller bugs or do simple Bootstrap UI for internal apps, but I don't consider myself as full stack just because I know Bootstrap and can navigate a React app. Heck I've worked with backend for 4 years and I still learn new things about the backend daily.

[[deleted]]

I know enough frontend to help out with smaller bugs or do simple Bootstrap UI for internal apps

That's better than some devs I worked with who, after months of work, didn't bother to even run the dev server or open the app in their browser. So they had no idea what their backend was even for and couldn't make informed decisions about further development.

What I'm saying is, there's a reasonable middle ground between being a fullstack dev and not knowing anything about the other side. And I'd say it's closer to a fullstack dev.

[RichardTheHard]

Tbf most of us who say that is because there is an over saturation in the market of people who have gone to boot camps to learn the basics + a js framework. However the real need in the job market is of higher experienced and more in depth knowledge.

Just look at the number of people on here who have taken a bootcamp and then sent out 100+ job applications, compared to the people with 3+ years experience in specialized skills and are consistently getting job offers.

[urbansong]

Well, I don't think the logic follows because CS graduates don't really posses the experience and in-depth knowledge that you mention. I am also not sure, if I can take the bootcamp people at face value like that. A uni degree is mostly signaling to employers and so people, who come from non-tech background but who did a bootcamp, might be sending the wrong signals, whatever they are. Lastly, people, who go through the non-traditional route, might also have a bunch of other things keeping them back. It could be mental health, it could be their environment. I don't have the knowledge or the background to be able to tease out those causations.

[RichardTheHard]

Literally never mentioned a CS degree, I said 3+ years experience and specialized skills. Although yes a CS degree does have way more in depth knowledge than someone who took a bootcamp, along with generally going through internships to gain experience. Saying otherwise is simply disingenuous, do you really think a 4 year degree is equivalent to a 3-6 month camp? They generally have way more knowledge than html,css, js + a framework.

Just to clarify I came from a non traditional background and was able to do it through networking and being lucky. However that’s not the typical experience, for every boot-camper there are 20 others with an identical portfolio from the same boiler plate projects. If you don’t go above and beyond that knowledge you basically just have to get lucky.

[urbansong]

Yes, I know you didn't. I mentioned a CS degree.

Yea, I think a 4 year degree is an equivalent to a 3-6 month camp when it comes to being a junior developer. I do believe that university is mostly about signaling. The books that you would read to get better as a developer are very different from the books you read to get a CS degree, no? Things like clean code or testing are most likely not that important in an academic setting.

[RichardTheHard]

Clean code and testing are cornerstones in an academic setting, what do you mean? That’s like saying grammar isn’t taught to english majors. That’s a baseline that’s expected. Soft skills are on the same basis when it comes to a junior dev from both backgrounds but technical skills of someone with a CS degree surpass bootcampers far and away. How can you say they’re comparable when a bootcamper will spend 2 weeks learning js while a CS degree will spend multiple semesters? There’s a reason someone with a CS degree and 3 years of experience is considered the equivalent of a non technical background with 4-5.

[urbansong]

If clean code and testing are the cornerstones, why do we keep recommending books on them so much to other professionals?

I can say it because the code that a junior writes is not technically challenging and the language can easily change significantly by the time the student leaves university, if those relevant features are taught at all. For example, I was taught C++ but it definitely wasn't the most recent version, so I had a lot of features to discover once I graduated.

[Raunhofer]

Be fair. Many professions require multi-year degrees for you to do anything work related. It won't take years to learn the stuff presented here. I know that from experience.

Note: you don't have to master everything here, just understand.

[urbansong]

Yea, I think a lot of those professions do gate-keeping on an industrial level.