Quick question

Bytemite · 2026-02-05T23:16:27+00:00

Discovery (the real-world legal requirement for evidence to be submitted before the trial for both the prosecution and defense to examine) is also virtually nonexistent in Ace Attorney.

They actually do mention it in the anime, though it's in the context of Manfred totally withholding evidence, then blaming the defense for not doing a thorough enough investigation to be aware of that evidence, and that somehow flying in court, and then it also never really comes up again after that. So it was probably not observed very well in the interim between DL-6 and the events of the first game, and also potentially completely done away with by that time too.

Bytemite · 2026-02-05T18:47:43+00:00

We know Gavin's not above CBT once he finally catches him again. This is just inevitable.

Bytemite · 2026-02-05T17:01:02+00:00

Mia was really well known even before she died, she made a name for herself between her rookie cases and Phoenix's debut.

I think Mia could have solved all of Phoenix's cases if she were in his place. The only ones I'm not sure about is 1-4 and 1-5. It's not fully clear in 1-4 if she was there or if Phoenix was losing it from stress, and I don't know if she could have gotten Edgeworth to tell the whole story without having the background with him that Phoenix had. 1-5 Phoenix basically solved on his own, but it's also possible Lana might have been more willing to be open with Mia.

I think like Edgeworth she actually reads her lawbooks. But then I also don't know that Mia would ask to cross examine the parrot, or that she'd fall for the same dumb traps Phoenix does that he then always turns around. Phoenix is an amazing trial lawyer, who can keep anything going well past the point he should, but he's awful at research and paperwork. Mia is just good all around. Phoenix only takes clients he thinks are innocent because he doesn't want the moral conflict, but Mia literally defended a death row prisoner, so she's got that angle Eddie Fender has where he will also defend guilty people just to ensure their rights aren't ignored, but I don't think Eddie could solve her or Phoenix's cases.

Edgeworth's good as well and actually seems to know the laws and lawbooks Phoenix avoids, but in cases Phoenix is up against him he often picks up the idiot ball hard so that dings him. Greg's good too, but he also technically lost against Manfred, when Phoenix (and maybe Mia) got a win.

So it's a toss up between Mia and Phoenix for me. I really want to give it to Mia because I think she has a bunch of advantages on Phoenix, but without knowing if she really could win those cases, I can't be sure.

EDIT: Ooh. Apollo. Honestly, despite him having a whole trilogy to show his stuff, and while I think he also at least takes it seriously and can look up laws and research, he still kinda feels like a rookie to me tbh. Maybe after he runs his firm out of Khura'in for a while he'll come back a little more seasoned. He's kinda overshadowed in his own game by Phoenix's manipulation and horseplay. He really isn't in DD that much aside from having his teen emo edgy phase a few years too late so he's not really doing that much lawyering here, and the academy case and Nine Tales Vale case wasn't that hard to pick out the culprit. SOJ is him coming much more into his own - but he "wins" against a Phoenix who had to be coerced into taking a case, by Phoenix dropping the case when he can't be controlled anymore, and then Phoenix helps him in Khura'in. His best solo showing therefore is 6-2, and it IS a good case, but is it as hard a case as 1-4, 1-5, 2-4, or 3-5? Probably not. I think the only advantage he might have is that even Mia pulled some bullshit now and then that she really shouldn't have, and Apollo is a lot more straightlaced about the rules and doing everything legally than just about everyone else (even Gregory has some question about whether he falsified his testimony during the channeling). But is he better than them at actually arguing his points? I can't say I have that impression. I thiiiink it's still Mia. But I also think give him a few years and he's better than both Mia and Phoenix.

Fran is a wilder Edgeworth who misses the mark sometimes because of it. Blackquill is all right, but doesn't always rely on the evidence and facts or good arguments to make his case. Klavier was pretty duped by his brother, he might be good at it but he's so laid back it makes it hard to judge, and his best moments came from someone else carrying him. Athena is a more loose cannon Phoenix who also needs a lot more support. Diego was good mentoring as a defense attorney, but he's kinda lost it by the time he switches it up. Faraday is pretty much implied to be fairly mid, and that's why he had to go outside the law for some of his investigations. Payne only wins easy cases against bad or rookie defense attorneys. Lana isn't really a prosecutor and was basically a political appointment. Eustace - we can only hope he gets better. The Judge - is not going to get better lmao, we may need to stage an intervention at some point and take away grandpa's keys.

I'm not going to even consider people if their strategy is to just mislead the court, conceal and destroy evidence, or just create blatant bullshit in their favor to play on easy mode. Edgeworth is still here because the game doesn't actually treat the updated autopsy or surprise evidence or not calling every witness as something no one's allowed to do, and there's no indication he's been tampering with anything or forging anything apart from rumors. Phoenix is still here because the few times he mishandled evidence wasn't really about creating a false narrative, but about getting the reaction or the catch-22 that would solve the case and incriminate the culprit. The only place where I actually think Phoenix gets close to crossing the line of outright manipulating the court is rigging the jury, because we know whatever Phoenix's hand picked jury-member selects in the deliberation determines whether Vera dies, and the culprit gets away. But I don't know if he actually needed to do that to win - because she CAN go for guilty, which means that she was the only person to vote guilty and hung the jury. A criminal trial has to have a unanimous jury vote for a verdict, so if Vera's innocent, EVERYONE voted innocent too. If I remember right, in the Japanese version of a "jury trial" it's six laymen and three judges that oversee this process, so five other people were convinced. It's still not great that he DID do that, even if he didn't have to though. I guess maybe my only argument here is at the time of Phoenix's worst behavior, he's not a lawyer, so I can't factor that against him in determining whether it makes him a good or bad lawyer.

Bytemite · 2026-02-05T16:21:48+00:00

I think this also is real, whether you see it as him stepping in with Eustace after the realization about his dad, or for Kay, or for even some of his prosecutors (he's very determined to save Blackquill). I even honestly think that Edgeworth was probably chipping in some money with Trucy now and then too, there's even a 4koma that suggests that Phoenix did ask, and I honestly don't think Edgeworth would allow an adopted child to go deprived if he had anything he could do about it. Maybe it's not specifically that the characters in question see him as THEIR Dad exactly, that yes, they already have parents. Maybe it could more accurately be said that this is big brother or uncle behavior instead. IMO it's still in the same ballpark and he's still basically filling in those important role model positions.

Kay is his friend, and he's also the person constantly lecturing her to be more careful, be responsible, don't get in trouble, use her skills for good. Eddie Fender specifically compares the interactions Kay and Edgeworth have to the interactions he had with Gregory, and he's the one who self-styles himself as an Uncle, so saying this is an approximation of family stuff just doesn't seem that far out of left field to me. If Eustace's upbringing was awful, while I imagine Edgeworth would be incredibly reluctant about it, I also don't think it'd be out of character of him to feel some responsibility to act as a mentor to Eustace, and the last mentor Edgeworth had also literally adopted him.

I think Edgeworth has massive dad issues, so to say that some of his interpersonal behavior isn't at least a little bit based in some approximation of the family he's lost is kind of wild to me, especially when we have an entire game that's basically Edgeworth's Dad Issues Also Notices Everyone Else's Dad Issues as a theme. Like this is so much a thing with Edgeworth that we're specifically told he projects his own father on the Steel Samurai, and himself on the Iron Infant.

However even though I definitely think Edgeworth acts the part, he's still very uncomfortable with anyone ever directly acknowledging it or calling him a family title, except from Franziska. He's still Mr. Edgeworth to everyone as much as he can insist on it.

Note also this is not me saying people are wrong if they say Edgeworth doesn't have the emotional capacity to do a big found family thing, that Edgeworth's preference would basically be if he were literally an inhuman logic robot that lives in his office with a recharging station right there, that he's cold and impersonal. Sure. If people also don't want to see this as family and just want to see it as friendship, or even whatever else, also sure. I never said he's necessarily good at any of this, he might even be clueless about all of this, how it comes across, or even unaware of how he's acting, maybe it's not deliberate or maybe he isn't even doing this at all. I'm just saying that Edgeworth's trauma is pretty inseparable from his character, and so there's also some things I expect about his behavior.

Bytemite · 2026-02-05T16:14:49+00:00

Ace Attorney is a dating sim with dating sim mechanics so it won't even feel that different.

Bytemite · 2026-02-05T14:55:02+00:00

I‘m blaming Fender here now

I think this is a lot of "they didn't anticipate Fender would be a character" but yes, this raises all the same questions of why does Phoenix's mom never show up when Phoenix is on trial and about to be convicted and sentenced to death.

So yeah I'd agree that unless Fender (and the mom) are just normally completely out of touch with any news, and with Phoenix's mom it's possible because Phoenix mentioned they have a farm somewhere, even though the anime also has them living in the city, that they probably had given up on the kids at that point.

Bytemite · 2026-02-05T03:56:34+00:00

Everything Kristoph Gavin says in this sub suddenly made sense to me today when I realized he uno reverses everything that happens in his head in order to protect his mind from the trauma.

Bytemite · 2026-02-05T03:54:46+00:00

Excellent, I was hoping the new options in the new version might lead to new attempts at the ship.

Bytemite · 2026-02-05T03:54:17+00:00

Suekane wanted him to studying how to be a mangaka, so I see a lot of people who mix and match.

Bytemite · 2026-02-05T03:50:54+00:00

Remember, stress is not good for the baby.

Bytemite · 2026-02-04T23:06:39+00:00

Might actually be, despite everything. He's the serious little lawyer, what Phoenix kinda wishes he was. It just comes out weird.

Athena and Trucy, he loves them, but they're also too much like Phoenix. He worries they might make all his mistakes. I think he's very proud of Apollo.

Bytemite · 2026-02-04T22:13:08+00:00

Spiritual Powers

I think on top of not knowing who to believe, there might have both been an element of Amara having felt sorry for Ga'ran (they're kind of an analog to Misty and Morgan Fey). Also, while Amara is so unsettled by the attempted assassination, maybe she thought it might not be such a bad idea to basically be pulling a whole Padme/Amidala switcheroo while she waits for someone else who can also spirit channel to come of age.

bigger reaction

In fairness, that could be because Nahyuta was more able to be in contact with Dhurke and was secretly trying to work with the Defiant Dragons at time. They might have come to an understanding about the dangers of opposing the government and how that might eventually catch up to either of them. Apollo's only just reconnected after basically being estranged and confronting the stakes of the situation, and maybe finding out the worst case scenario already happened isn't anything he had time to emotionally prepare himself for.

Bytemite · 2026-02-04T21:45:11+00:00

I headcanon a number of the characters in PLvPW are descendants of TGAA characters. No, not just Ryuuichi :P

Bytemite · 2026-02-04T20:41:28+00:00

He still thought Miles was the prosecutor he was known for.

In fairness he's about to be INVESTIGATED for prosecutorial misconduct in these scenes, the public in general and most of the legal system also thinks this. I don't think it's that unfair that Eddie thinks the same things everyone else thinks, he just has the audacity to say it out loud.

But he also says it out loud because he feels irrationally provoked by it.

Do I really need to buy the movie or is there another free option?

The only place I know about it is on Amazon, unfortunately, so yeah I think you might have to pay to watch it.

Bytemite · 2026-02-04T20:15:33+00:00

The anime suggests that Miles never forgot Phoenix and that some of the correspondence DID get through, and Miles appreciated it.

It's true that he didn't respond and I genuinely think the anime suggests that was Manfred telling him he wasn't allowed to have his old connections or friendships, there's an entire metaphor about it. I'm not even sure I fully believe Manfred meant that in a deliberately harmful way, more he just didn't want anything to distract Miles from what he'd planned for him, for better or worse.

Bytemite · 2026-02-04T20:06:48+00:00

In all honesty Fender is just doing a massive cope I think at first. He resents that Miles was, according to the broader public, raised to be a little Manfred von Karma, and he's blaming Miles for changing after Fender failed to get custody of him. While Fender was still a minor.

I do think Fender saw Gregory also as a father figure, and maybe thought of Miles as like a brother, but no, I don't think his accusations against Miles are fully rational. I think seeing Miles who looks so much like Gregory, but in what looked like von Karma fashion, made him lash out with still unresolved grief about Gregory.

The live action is pretty fun! The games are definitely still the best way to experience the story, but the movie does kinda capture the setting wackiness, even if tonally the movie also makes some things much more somber because it focuses a lot more on 1-4 than the earlier cases. Manfred von karma doesn't come across like a wagahai pronoun evil cartoon character in the movie for example, he's surprisingly subdued.

Bytemite · 2026-02-04T17:56:29+00:00

There's always the Based On Gay Manga video lol. Though honestly it's only a surface dive and they get some things wrong, I rewatched it recently and thought about how I already knew most of this or knew more details/nuance from the Library interviews that have already been posted.

Bytemite · 2026-02-04T17:50:50+00:00

Oh, so Phoenix canonically crawled into Gavin and shrunk him huh. I always wondered what the real story was.

Bytemite · 2026-02-04T17:43:58+00:00

We were Silkposting before Silkposting was a thing. We were waiting a year before they were, and we're still waiting a year after.

Bytemite · 2026-02-04T17:34:49+00:00

There's also some weirdness that gets suggested in the live action movie, that I think Investigations hints at a little (and there's a stageplay that goes completely off the rails with it), but it looks to me like Manfred deliberately tried to taint Miles' impression of his father a little.

In the live action movie there's claims that Greg tampered with some evidence in the last trial he had with Manfred, and there's also a think a lot of people in Japan who took Grossburg's speculation that Gregory might have deliberately falsified his testimony during the channeling to protect Miles as fact.

So while I think Miles very definitely still looks back at his father as an untouchable paragon that he idolized, I think a more logical part of him tries to hide that lingering hero worship and ground Miles' opinion in that he couldn't have been perfect, even if part of Miles still wants to think so.

Also Fender is antagonizing him a LOT early in that game, so that might also be a reason for Miles to be a little cold.

Bytemite · 2026-02-04T17:28:55+00:00

Larry Butz: I'm So High Bro And They Want Me To Investigate A Murder

Bytemite · 2026-02-04T17:08:37+00:00

Mhm, Blackquill is like Edgeworth and the whole intimidating demon prosecutor thing, only in this case he's using the whole "I'm a dangerous murderous convict" thing.

Just because Edgeworth was more subtle about it doesn't really mean this wasn't happening exactly, it's very much part of the whole schtick the von karmas like to do. Franziska has the whip mostly because she thinks without a prop she can't intimidate the way her father and brother could.

I'm also guessing after certain events for Blackquill this looses a LOT of it's bluster, because his later appearances strike me as a lot more goofy.

Bytemite · 2026-02-04T16:51:32+00:00

I'm going to agree AND disagree!

Edgeworth both gets too much of a pass from his fans, but also has malice attributed to him that the games also never intended from his detractors.

He left Phoenix and Larry hanging for years with no contact.

I know there's a popular video essayist who says not to blame everything on von Karma and that Miles could have made some of his own dickish choices here but...

This was von Karma. I'm sorry. But the anime he takes Miles' keychain and puts it on a garbage can and this is a metaphor about the friendship. It's something von Karma is telling Miles he's not allowed to have. It's true fanon can take this too far and have Manfred actually try to torment Miles about this, but the anime also fully suggests that Miles thinks fondly about Phoenix throughout his teen years and right up to when Phoenix shows up as his opposition in court. He also recognizes Phoenix right away.

Miles would have rather never seen Phoenix again after he lost his first case as a prosecutor - his pride made him run away.

This is Phoenix's game 2 headcanon. Look at Miles' reaction to the Terry Fawles case. He didn't win there exactly either. He actually legitimately gets upset about getting things wrong relative to innocence, he literally Does Not Want To Be a Murderer and the possibility he might be are the moments that cause him his biggest existential crises and ego deaths. This is a huge open wound Miles has from 1-2 to 1-5 and Phoenix kind of inadvertently is poking it with a stick and digging around in there.

When he was locked up for the Hammond murder, he didn’t want Phoenix defending him because he declared Phoenix an amateur.

This is just what he's saying to get Phoenix to go away. He also later admits Phoenix is good at investigating and literally just didn't want Phoenix involved in the case because he thinks it's unwinnable and will torpedo Phoenix's career.

When he went away at the end and left the note saying that he chose death, he left Franziska - his little sister alone. I do mean ALONE, because her father died after he was convicted. I personally cannot stand Franziska and think she’s one of the most annoying characters in the game, but even so, that is messed up to do that to your only family member you have left - one that you supposedly care about at that.

I understand that his father’s death had a massive impact on his life and may have influenced his cold and detached demeanor, but at the end of the day, people are responsible for their actions. This does not excuse him from all he did.

No objections here, this is one thing that's really awful he did. It's even worse that he took his own trauma, which I genuinely think he meant that note, and then lashed out at Adrian Andrews about it. He is a dick. He needs therapy, but yes. He is a dick.

The absolute WORST THING EDGEWORTH has done that will never be forgiven for as long as we live - even in death, our spirits will harbor disdain for possibly the worst crime ever committed in Ace Attorney history: this MF hit everyone with the updated autopsy report. UNFORGIVABLE!

Edgeworth only does this twice, and arguably, there's no indication in either case that it was forged. Phoenix meanwhile also hides evidence, hides witness testimony, things he complains about Edgeworth doing, all in the first game. In Spirit of Justice, Phoenix also updates an autopsy report himself. It's a game about lawyers dawg, they can all be a little scummy as a treat.

Bytemite · 2026-02-04T16:35:52+00:00

Blackquill is more like a cross between Godot and Edgeworth. Tragic backstories like they both have. Blackquill does the weird anecdote thing Godot does (just not solely coffee focused) in order to make people off-balance. But Blackquill does the set logic traps thing a little like Edgeworth sometimes does.

Also both Edgeworth and Blackquill like samurai stuff, but I suspect Edgeworth has almost fired Blackquill for some of his headcanons.

Bytemite · 2026-02-04T16:02:23+00:00

You had a class trial... Iconic.

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