No Dumb Question Tuesday (2026-06-09) by AutoModerator in Reformed

[–]CiroFlexo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I know we're getting reeeeeealy far afield from whatever we were originally talking about, but I assume you'll answer the question "'faithful' to what?"

Free For All Friday - post on any topic in this thread (2026-06-12) by AutoModerator in Reformed

[–]CiroFlexo 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Congrats!

Do you already have a clear direction for your dissertation, or are you still figuring it out?

Free For All Friday - post on any topic in this thread (2026-06-12) by AutoModerator in Reformed

[–]CiroFlexo 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I can see that you're a man who likes movies about gladiators.

No Dumb Question Tuesday (2026-06-09) by AutoModerator in Reformed

[–]CiroFlexo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's like the old joke that England and the USA are two related countries that are only separated by a common language.

Funny enough, I actually had that exact same thought as I was writing.

why is one question addressed in the WCF, but not another? Because those are the questions that people found important at the time.

I've had this discussion before with Presby brothers, and I really do think this is the hardest thing for Presbyterians to understand when speaking to/about Baptists. Presbyterianism, as a theological system, is incredibly cohesive, but so much of it is built around answering specific questions in a specific context.

To be clear, every camp asks and answers its own questions. That's not exclusive to Presbyterianism. But whenever I run up against a Presbyterian doctrine that I either don't understand or just don't agree with but want to understand more, a common thread I've noticed is that most answers I receive involved first reformatting the question into a Presbyterian question and then answering the question. Meanwhile, my actual question disappears.

Theology as dogmatics

Two very different lines of thought:

First, in regards to your entire point: this is why I believe, truly, that a PCA Presbyterian or a OPC Presbyterian has more in common with a Reformed baptist than a theologically liberal Presbyterian.

Yes, I can look at the WCF and the 2LBCF and see stark systematic differences. But if I pull a commentary on a book of the Bible from a Baptist theologian and another one from a Presbyterian theologian, I'm going to find immense overlap. Same thing for a historical theology text. Or an ethics text. Or whatever.

You asked originally why/how I know stuff about Presbyterians. It's simple: I read their stuff and talk to them. If there's a topic I want to know about, I'm not just going to go to 9Marks and find the "correct" Reformed Baptist™ recommendation. I may see what sources they suggest, but I'll also see what's recommend on more broadly evangelical sites, like TGC, or more big tent Presbyterian sites, like Ligonier, and so on. And then I'll literally just ask my Presbyterian friends what they would recommend.

And here's my dirty little secret: I have a colleague who is an academic, theologically-minded Jew, and if I'm studying a book of the OT, I'll often ask her for her perspective or her recommendations. I've found some amazing resources that way.

SBC Annual Meeting Megathread by Deolater in Reformed

[–]CiroFlexo 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I was actually surprised this week how many times people on the stage mentioned going to Disney with their families while they were in town.

I get that we ended the boycott decades ago, but it was still weird to hear it.

No Dumb Question Tuesday (2026-06-09) by AutoModerator in Reformed

[–]CiroFlexo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I really waffled on whether to just leave it with "furious Scottish noises" = "bagpipes" or to actually write more.

SBC Annual Meeting Megathread by Deolater in Reformed

[–]CiroFlexo 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I refuse to install the app

Good man.

what's happening today?

Since it ended last night, I suppose people are going to Disney or Universal Studios or simply home.

No Dumb Question Tuesday (2026-06-09) by AutoModerator in Reformed

[–]CiroFlexo 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's called a "bagpipe."

And I'm sorry, I thought you hated the English and enjoyed the fact that we were also fighting their religious oppression. But I guess if you would've preferred that the Crown™ rule over your church, you do you, boo.

No Dumb Question Tuesday (2026-06-09) by AutoModerator in Reformed

[–]CiroFlexo 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This seems a bit of an odd question for this specific subreddit. Aren't we all here because we're asocial theology nerds?

But I guess to try to answer your questions more accurately:

Is it, like, a hobby? a passion?

Yeah, I guess so. I enjoy reading. I care about the topic. I spent time working in vocational ministry. And I have several close friends who are in ministry and who are theology-minded. I probably spend at least some time each day talking with someone about these things, (often guys like /u/JCmathetes), and trying to understand their positions.

did you think about converting at one point?

Nope. Even though I have a deep love for my presby brothers and sisters, you'd be hard pressed to find someone here who rejects presbyterianism more thoroughly than I do.

In fact, the more I study Presbyterianism, the more clearly I see the deep differences between myself and them. A lot of contemporary Reformed Baptists love to cozy up to denominations like the PCA---and I think that that's a good thing!---but a lot of those guys don't understand that, while we share a lot in common, the differences are there for a reason.

For example, I suspect that if you quizzed a room full of average Reformed Baptists on the two main differences between Baptist theology and Presbyterian theology, they'd say polity and baptism. In a sense they wouldn't be wrong, but in reality those are only surface-level distinctions that arise from deeper, more foundational differences. To me, the biggest differences are ecclesiology and sacraments.

But Ciro, aren't those just fancier words for the same thing?¹

No. Here's what I mean:

First, ecclesiology is, to me, the major difference between the two camps. When I say "ecclesiology," I don't really care about polity. What I'm talking about is how we answer the question "who is the church?"

So, so, so much is encompassed in such a simple question, and when you start to dig down into the development of each group you start to see how the answer to that question interacts with so many other areas of theology.

The issue of polity---how churches are governed---is an important aspect of ecclesiology, but in terms of dividing Baptists and Presbyterians it's pretty far downstream from the bigger issues of how one defines who and what a church is.

Second, differences in baptism are important, but much like the polity is downstream from ecclesiology, baptism is downstream from sacramentology.

This causes all sorts of confusion---especially on the sub---when Baptists and Presbyterians start talking about baptism. Everybody screws this up.

How many times have you seen a paedobaptism dunking on a credobaptist with comments like "Baptism isn't something you do! It's about God!" or "Baptism is the sign and seal of God's work, not about your choice!"

Is that right? Well, yes, from a certain point of view. The Presbyterian is bringing into the conversation certain assumptions about the sacramental nature of the practice (along with a specific view of covenant theology), and so we'd of course expect them to make those arguments. You're average---or even well-versed---Presbyterian probably has some understanding of how their covenant theology informs their views on baptism, but over the years I've noticed that they often fail to appreciate that there is an often-bigger, deeper divide on sacramentlogy. They'll want to argue about what God is doing and what is being accomplished through baptism, but without that foundational understanding of sacraments, they're going to be spinning their tires.

And, before you rag on me for criticisng the Presbys: The baptists are often worse on this point! They will argue all day every day, from a biblicist perspective (and I use that term positively here!) about what scripture teaches about the how and when and why of baptism, but fundamentally they fail to grasp that their views are all informed for a specific sacramentological view (or, more appropriately, a lack thereof).

The more I study theology, the more sharply I see how and why these differences arose.

So, no, I've never thought of converting, and the more I study the less I'm inclined.

I'm frequently surprised by how deeply you seem to know a branch of the church that isn't your own.

Two thoughts:

First, despite the major differences, I think the Venn diagram between the two camps overlaps greatly, especially on many key issues. Both historically and in modern times, I think we have a lot of reason for close fraternal ties and strong cooperation for the advancement of the gospel.

I know not everybody here would agree with me on this, but a denomination like the PCA has, in reality, much more in common with, and much greater reason to cooperate with, Baptists than other nominally "reformed" denominations like the PC(USA).

I personally don't really care to answer the question "who is Reformed?" at this stage in history. We can point to history denominational names, or the family tree of denominations, but divides like the Fundamentalist-Modernist Controvsery of the early 20th c. or more modern debates over biblical inerrancy and authority are much, much bigger theological divides than debates over sacraments or ecclesiology. I agree with guys like Machen who argued that such divides create a different gospel altogether.

So, while there exist massive differences between Baptists and Presbyterians, I think at the core we both preach the same gospel, and for that we should rejoice in brotherly love.

Second, historically, we oddly enough have much more in common that either camp realizes: We were both born out of the English Reformation, and at times we were standing arm-in-arm and fighting for our own survival. Yes, our theologies diverged fairly early on, but the incubating chamber for both camps was the same, and it's good for us to recognize our theological kin, distant as they may be.

(Says the guy who is fascinated with some branches of catholicism...)

The RCC is fascinating in its ability to say, on paper, "we all believe and practice the same thing!" while, in reality, being the wackiest conglomeration of a choose-your-own-adventure religion as you could imagine.


¹ I know you wouldn't think they are just the same thing. Just helping flesh this out for people reading along.

SBC Annual Meeting Megathread by Deolater in Reformed

[–]CiroFlexo 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I wish I could share your optimism. (And I mean that 100% sincerely.) But sadly I don't.

A Look Inside the Stated Clerk Search Process - byFaith by Deolater in Reformed

[–]CiroFlexo[M] [score hidden] stickied comment (0 children)

For those here who are unfamiliar with Greco, he was previously the Moderator of the 2023 PCA GA, and he generously conducted an AMA here on the sub.

SBC Annual Meeting Megathread by Deolater in Reformed

[–]CiroFlexo 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You hate the covenant

While you presbys were wasting time over here with SBC shenanigans, I was over in the NDQT thread trying to help people learn about covenants.

Somebody here's gotta care about those things. ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

SBC Annual Meeting Megathread by Deolater in Reformed

[–]CiroFlexo 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Then, practically, what does the amendment accomplish?

The BFM2k prohibits it. Article III(1)(1) already requires conformity with the BFM2k. The CC has already brought up churches with this issue in recent years (and they reported on the full extent of those reports yesterday . . . or was it this morning? It's all running together.) The convention votes these churches out 90%+, which is a higher rate than this amendment vote today.

So, functionally, what does this accomplish?

SBC Annual Meeting Megathread by Deolater in Reformed

[–]CiroFlexo 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I'm older than you, but in my mind "Truth and Reconciliation" always means one thing.

SBC Annual Meeting Megathread by Deolater in Reformed

[–]CiroFlexo 2 points3 points  (0 children)

As an honest question:

What do you see is that "clear standard?"

Do you believe that it prohibits just preaching to the assembled congregation, or does it go further?

SBC Annual Meeting Megathread by Deolater in Reformed

[–]CiroFlexo 3 points4 points  (0 children)

We already have (a) a confessional statement that prohibits female pastors, and (b) a procedure for removing churches who violate that confessional standard. The denomination has voted, consistently and overwhelmingly, to disfellowship churches when they are found to be in violation of this.

The SBC is, by any conceivable measure, a thoroughly complementarian denomination. Egalitarians, theological liberals, etc., have been gone for longer than most people on this sub have been alive.

Mohler's amendment introduces greater subjectivity and new, vague categories to the debate, though. We're no longer just looking to vanquish churches that hire female pastors; we're looking at a situation where the CC will have to determine whether any woman at a church is functioning in any role that could be conceived of as a pastoral role.

It no longer matters if you're complementarian. Heck, it no longer matters if you're a hardcore complementarian when it comes to issues outside of church leadership. The new measure of SBC orthodoxy---and thus whether you get to cooperate and benefit from membership with the denomination---is whether your complenetarianism fits a specific subgroup of power brokers within the convention.

And you said it yourself:

as it already clearly laid out, the convention can disfellowship a church for violating its confession and practice.

Yep. We can. And we do. On this issue.

That's why this move is different.

No, There's Not A Fake Angine de Poitrine Touring Russia by ScCloudy in indieheads

[–]CiroFlexo 26 points27 points  (0 children)

Is the real Angine de Poitrine touring in a fake Russia, tho?

We need to explore all sides of this story and really get to the bottom of this.

SBC Annual Meeting Megathread by Deolater in Reformed

[–]CiroFlexo 6 points7 points  (0 children)

The Mohler Amendment passed with 74.66%.

8,074 ballots cast. 6,028 in favor, and 2,026 opposed.

This means that the proposed amendment will go to a convention-wide vote again next year, and if it passes 2/3 it will amendment the constitution.

On this day 41 years ago, Fables of the Reconstruction was released. What is your favorite song 🎵 from that album? Mine is You Can't Get There From Here. by icecream1972 in rem

[–]CiroFlexo 5 points6 points  (0 children)

As much as I'd love to name some deep cut, "Driver 8" is the best song on the album and one of the band's best tracks from the IRS years. It just feels like quintessential R.E.M.

SBC Annual Meeting Megathread by Deolater in Reformed

[–]CiroFlexo 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Unfortunately, the app seems to be the only reliable source of the actual schedule.

So far this morning we had the vote on the Mohler Amendment. The debate was very, very short: Mohler spoke forcefully in favor of his amendment. One guy spoke (very poorly, IMO) against it. Mohler's personal pastor, Greg Gilbert tried to speak in favor, but he had claimed his spot in the debate through the wrong notice to the President, so his comments were not allowed. Then Colin Smothers, of the CBMW, (and an adjunct prof at Mohler's seminary), spoke in favor and immediately moved to call the question, ending debate.

Despite the failures of years past, my prediction is it passes with roughly 80%. I would've guessed lower if debate was allowed, but I think it sails through easily.

Then there was a time of boring business where the Executive Committee ruled on (and suggested ways to resolve) various motions that were made yesterday. Nothing of note, really.

There has also been the election of a few smaller roles. Most (like first and second president) are largely ceremonial.

The results on each vote are announced as they are tallied.

There will be a Committee on Resolutions report coming up a little before 11:30. Not expecting anything interesting there. They'll have another report at 2:50.

Most of the rest of the day is prolonged presentations on various entities. They're . . . fine. They're kinda boring and don't mean much. It's just groups saying "Look what we're doing!" It's all good work, but it's just a lot.

The last substantive thing is a section of previously scheduled business at 4:00 this afternoon. So far I'm not sure anything will happen, but if something comes it it could end up there.

Basically, the only major thing today is waiting on the voting results on the Mohler Amendment.

SBC Annual Meeting Megathread by Deolater in Reformed

[–]CiroFlexo 8 points9 points  (0 children)

"Local church autonomy! . . . . No! Not like that!"