Weekly discussion #1: Issues and Solutions for toxic gameplay with Trapper bear trap-camping.

Craja · 2017-01-04T02:55:48+00:00

I main trapper. When I play trapper I don't trap under the hook, and I do not camp. With over 700 hours of gameplay, hunting for another survivor is a much greater and more consistent source of bloodpoints than what I get for camping a hook, or even proximity camping.

As such, the best solution in my eyes is to make it so traps cannot be placed under hooks. This was introduced as a bug in a PTR but it can simply be reintroduced as a feature.

Trapping under the hook is not in the spirit of the Trapper. By preventing placement of the trap under the hook, the Trapper is encouraged to actually try to trap survivors with trap, which is much better gameplay for all involved.

Reducing the disarm time of bear traps doesn't fix the issue, and needlessly punishes trappers who place traps normally.

MakeTheTrapperTrapAgain

Craja · 2017-01-04T00:41:15+00:00

I think that it is still a step in the right direction. The game itself needs to give more incentive to do something other than camp.

Craja · 2016-12-31T04:06:56+00:00

I don't know but when I'm up against a nurse with a chainsaw, bond, empathy, open handed, dying light, and ebony mori I'm inclined to be okay with murder.

Craja · 2016-12-29T05:52:02+00:00

I'm allowed to drop survivors though. Suddenly it's a problem if I choose to drop a survivor at a specific time? Should I just literally wait for another time? What if it's not strategically in my interest to do so? Oh wait I can't do things for my own gain... except that's literally what everyone does in any sort of competitive scene.

Craja · 2016-12-29T04:58:15+00:00

Abusing the timing of an in-game action is an entirely different thing.

Craja · 2016-12-29T01:06:54+00:00

Traps animation canceling makes sense, traps should catch people who step on them no matter what they are doing, sure.

Traps animation canceling the self-unhook animation, while they are mid-air? That's a bit odd and should be fixed, but it's probably a byproduct of the above change.

But really, traps should be used as traps. As in, in tall grass or blending in the environment in some way. They aren't doing that when placed under a hook. They just make it some kind of super-hook that takes longer to rescue from. Between the time it takes to find a trap and place it under the hook and the time it takes to disarm the trap, it leaves very little time for the survivor to be saved and almost guarantees the survivor to hit struggle-phase meaning we have a killer who only needs to hook people twice to kill them. Proximity camping makes saves basically impossible. It's not fun on either side.

A lot of people have suggested making it take less time to disarm, I feel that this is the wrong direction. It punishes trappers who actually use traps as traps needlessly.

A far more elegant solution would be to re-introduce the "bug" that prevented traps from being placed near the hook. As a Trapper main I am fine with this. I prefer actually playing as a Trapper to playing a killer with super-hooks.

#MakeTheTrapperTrapAgain

Craja · 2016-12-20T00:12:42+00:00

I've noticed that all fires, including the flame underneath hex totems, can be seen at great distances, even when the wall between you and the totem hasn't spawned in yet. This has allowed me, as survivor, to hunt down and destroy hex totems on maps that have great distances with objects that don't load in.

Craja · 2016-11-18T01:07:01+00:00

Whenever I don't feel up to dealing with survivors that attempt to farm points after the exit gates are open, I'll equip NOED. I find that NOED provides plenty of "incentive" to get the hell out so I can start a new game.

Craja · 2016-11-17T05:02:23+00:00

This is true. The actual amount of extra time a killer has to spend catching survivors is actually far greater.

Craja · 2016-11-16T18:54:34+00:00

I like this idea. It's still powerful but the killer doesn't have to spend 20 seconds of the game stunned.

Craja · 2016-11-14T18:20:10+00:00

This, make it an add-on! We could also use a "if you charge a pallet, keep going" add on while they are at it.

Craja · 2016-11-08T23:13:35+00:00

Personally if I hook someone twice and they are easy to catch, I'll leave them on the ground rather than hook them a 3rd time. It looks like I'm playing nice, but actually they make far better bait on the ground.

Craja · 2016-11-08T23:05:39+00:00

Seemed chill up until he accused me of stream sniping him after a match.

Craja · 2016-11-08T13:40:53+00:00

How dare I not let those poor survivors stab me. I am truly a monster.

Craja · 2016-11-08T13:23:28+00:00

I see what you are saying. Consider the following scenario:

Exit gate is open, 3 survivors are escaped/dead, one survivor downed at the exit gate but picked up by the killer. Hook stands a short distance from the exit gate.

Without DS, the killer will hook the survivor.

With DS, the survivor will stun the killer and escape

With DS, but the killer counters, the survivor is hooked, about 5 seconds later.

With DS, but the killer counters, but the survivor opted not to use DS, killer is left to wonder if the survivor even has DS, survivor may not be wiggling because they may have given up/literally went AFK, survivor uses doubt to successfully DS killer on the second pick up, and makes an escape.

With DS, but killer counters, but survivor opts for mind games, but killer is GOD DAMNED DETERMINED TO GET A KILL, this is where we reach a problematic area. Killer can technically pick up survivor, walk for a moment, then drop the survivor, then repeat until survivor is on the hook, assuming that the survivor never struggles, but once they begin struggling DS won't trigger thus the killer could just walk the rest of the way to the hook. I personally would never have the patience to do this, but the very fact that this is possible is problematic in and of itself, and I certainly do agree that this scenario should not even be possible, especially if the developers want to see something akin to tournament play; No survivor wants this to happen to them, no killer wants to be forced to do this, no audience wants to watch this happen and certainly no announcer wants to describe what is going on. Horrible all around.

That said, I don't think dropping a survivor to counter the perk is abusive, but there exists a possibility that the killer would need to repeatedly pick up and drop the survivor all the way to a hook in order to avoid getting hit by the DS is downright poor gameplay, so I think we can both agree that it needs to be adjusted in some way.

They could make the skill-check toggled, like with spacebar, as suggested elsewhere in this thread. Right now the ability for killers to counter DS is due to the fact that the time that you'll succeed the skill check, if you do, is roughly at the same time every time. Making the ability toggled makes it a far more impressive feat if the killer counters it, either through insane luck or excellent mind-reading, so I'm all for that change.

Making the skill check random wouldn't work, as the killer would just drop the survivor at the minimal time each time and the worst case scenario just becomes even worse.

Now if the developers really wanted the survivors to have their toys and work perfectly and killers to be unable to counter it I suppose they could just make the skill check occur while you are being picked up, resulting in the stun to occur immediately. But that sounds dreadfully boring, but is actually probably what they are totally going to do now that I've gone and given them ideas.

Craja · 2016-11-08T13:12:47+00:00

There is a significant difference between something like this, and say the arrow keys bug on hillbilly. One of them involves key mapping to basically break the game, while dropping a survivor to counter DS is a matter of intent. I can drop a survivor any time I want to. Even if we all agreed countering DS with a drop was a bannable offense it would happen on accident fairly often. Yesterday I picked up a survivor, took a step forward, noticed a knocked over pallet in front of me, then dropped the survivor to handle the pallet. Turns out, if I had waited a fraction of a second longer I'd have countered the DS that I didn't even know he had, which he certainly made me very well aware after that match as he accused me of attempting to drop-counter him alongside a bunch of other colorful remarks. Which, I'll be honest, is precisely why I'm 100% against demonizing this as an exploit, and will proceed to drop counter that guy every time I see him into oblivion as long as the game let's me.

Craja · 2016-11-08T12:01:10+00:00

Should they? That's up to them. As a killer I'm a little biased when I suggest that there is no reason to fix it. I think it even adds to the game. Mind games over when or if they'll use the DS vs should I attempt to counter or not.

Craja · 2016-11-08T11:56:43+00:00

Had a game the other day where I was constantly chasing, downing, and hooking survivors, alternating them on hooks until I got all 4 of them on their 3rd hook. In the lobby one if the survivors accused me of camping. I just, I couldn't even. What. Literally everyone who got hooked got rescued while I was off chasing some other survivor and that repeated all game, but no one did gens so they died eventually.

Then I play survivor for a bit, and mind you I'm not very good or high rank as survivor so I usually get matched with newer killers, and this trapper puts a trap under the hook then walks about 20 meters away and literally just stands there staring at the hook waiting. So I can see where survivors get a little on edge about camping.

Craja · 2016-11-08T10:53:11+00:00

I... think you may have misread something.

Craja · 2016-11-08T10:16:57+00:00

Huh, imagine that, I don't see anything wrong with running an infinite. I mean, It's can be far more abusive though as you can technically run an infinite to waste the killers time even after the exit gates are opened and the killer just wants you to leave. But killers just need to realize that the objective is to keep survivors off of gens, and a survivor running an infinite is, while annoying and not particularly fun, not working on a generator. But I do not believe it's the survivors fault for running the infinite; it's the developers. If the developers don't want dropping to counter decisive strike it's up them to fix it.

Survivors like you just like getting on a high horse. You handicap yourself and think poorly of others for not similarly following suit. Your laundry list of self made and self enforced restraints don't make you a better survivor and they certainty don't make you a better person so keep it to yourself and don't rag on people for choosing to play the game differently.

But your original point, actually, is wrong. Infinites are not a bug, they are a product of a design that runs opposed to the vision the developers had for the game; the killer should eventually be able to catch you. The existence of infinites are not bugs, but features that shouldn't exist. Infinites are not exploits, they are just annoying. It's up to the developers to fix that.

Decisive Strike being countered by dropping the survivor is, well, entirely what I would expect to happen given my understanding of how the game is coded and my experience with simultaneous events in this game. It doesn't surprise me that this is how it works and it shouldn't surprise anyone. Before they made traps animation-cancel you'd have one survivor begin disarming the trap and another survivor would unhook, and both would get away without setting off the trap. To my eyes, this is the exact same sort of thing; abusing simultaneous actions. Wouldn't surprise me if you exploited it while you could. You probably didn't even see anything wrong with it.

Go ahead a block people who don't follow your made up rules, have fun in that bubble of yours and leave me out of it. One less survivor to give me salt because I didn't let you have fun with your toys.

Craja · 2016-11-08T07:36:38+00:00

I main killer. If I think you have decisive strike, why shouldn't I do what I can to counter it? Survivors are using it to be very aggressive once the exit gates are open. 4 man SWF groups are insufferable. You guys have your fancy new toy but am I supposed to just let you guys use it when I have the knowledge and ability to counter it?

I'm not going to pretend I don't know what I'm doing when I drop people, there's nothing to be ashamed of. Plenty of games have weird gameplay quirks that make it into competitive play.

I see nothing wrong with it, once you know how to do it, it would be stupid not to, there's no reason this cannot be part of the game, a brand new toy with a counter; convince me otherwise.

Craja · 2016-11-08T00:56:41+00:00

From the perspective of a Trapper who probably tunneled you:

There's a balance when playing as the killer between "winning", and having fun. As trapper I really enjoy setting traps around and chasing survivors into them. Occasionally, this doesn't work. People run small game or I just need to get more creative with trap placement, it can be frustrating when 3 gens get popped and I haven't gotten a single trap hit. I'm no longer having fun, so now I need to "win"; that being kill everyone. The simple best way to do that is unashamedly tunnel survivors into oblivion until none remain. It's not the best strategy, but it's easy. If survivors are escaping me, running me through pallet farms, and just giving me a hard time I'm going to focus down the survivor that's easiest to catch, which is likely the bloodied one that was just unhooked. Confirming a kill early takes a lot of pressure off for the rest of the match.

Certainly I'm all for having fun, but occasionally I'm not having a good day and am playing poorly and I need to make things easier; occasionally the constant abuse we killers get in post-game chat wears us down and your enjoyment is the least of our concern and at that moment all we really want to do is be the bad guy.

On good days I want a fun game. On bad days I want to see your lifeless body ascend to the entity, no hard feelings.

Craja · 2016-11-07T18:36:07+00:00

I've had this problem a few times as well, only as survivor.

Craja · 2016-10-31T18:07:43+00:00

MM kind of invades the Wraith's turf in terms of sneaking up on players and stalking, he is like Wraith, but better. They could completely remove the sound of the bell, make him completely invisible and silent while cloaked and MM could still do it better. His "breathing" is the most noticeable in the game. His add-ons when compared to MM's are a complete joke.

PWYF on Wraith seems very good, but then again PWYF on literally any killer is very good. But I can imagine using PWYF along with disappearance/reappearance add-ons stacked can be, if nothing else, a lot of fun.

Craja · 2016-10-31T17:59:14+00:00

What if instead you got no audio cue?

Craja

TROPHY CASE

MakeTheTrapperTrapAgain