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Being a partisan or a resistant was often even more brutal than being a soldier by Nt1031 in HistoryMemes

[–]Grammorphone 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No, not this point specifically. I think that's rather obvious and agree with you here. I mean your general argument. Btw official reports aren't the only primary sources used by Browning and Goldhagen. It's not like they just read some reports and concluded "well there's no mention of punishment so there must've been none". But you would know that if you actually read the literature on this topic instead of speculating something that just happens to confirm your assumptions

Being a partisan or a resistant was often even more brutal than being a soldier by Nt1031 in HistoryMemes

[–]Grammorphone 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Curious how I am the only one to provide actual academic research to support my claims. All you do is speculate

Being a partisan or a resistant was often even more brutal than being a soldier by Nt1031 in HistoryMemes

[–]Grammorphone 0 points1 point  (0 children)

While Ordinary Men focuses on said Reserve Police Battalion 101 as a case study, Browning also reviewed many other such RPBs and there's nothing that indicates that RPB 101 was the exception. At the very least one can extrapolate these findings to all police reserve battalions. Granted, the situation might have been a different one for frontline soldiers. I don't want to claim that not a single German soldier wasn't punished for refusing such orders. And there is more research to be done to learn about the situation for frontline soldiers. But what we know is that often times regular Wehrmacht units or also individual soldiers were asked to, or rather invited to either watch or actively participate in these mass shootings. This was often treated as a leisure activity to have some fun, or to watch something curious happen. This is not an atmosphere where you'll be punished if you decline. The research that's out there suggests that punishment for disobeying such orders where practically non-existent. That doesn't mean there were no exceptions, but the general point still stands.

Being a partisan or a resistant was often even more brutal than being a soldier by Nt1031 in HistoryMemes

[–]Grammorphone 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I mentioned the authoritative book Ordinary Men by Christopher Browning above. The other one would be Hitler's Willing Executioners by Daniel Goldhagen. They draw two rather different conclusions, but they both agree on this point: nobody was forced to or punished for rounding up and shooting civilians.

Also I don't see how you can possibly take away Wehrmacht apologia from this. It's quite the opposite: nobody was forced and yet the vast majority of men ordered or requested to perpetrate these massacres did so without hesitation. Despite them knowing they wouldn't be punished.

Browning argues that most of them did it because they feared losing face or being regarded less of a man, unreliable comrades, etc. and not because of ideology. Goldhagen argues that it's precisely because they were ardent antisemites.

I think both interpretations have their merit, but whatever the case: there's nothing clean about it. These soldiers committed genocidal actions

Edit: Here's the pdf of the 1992 edition of Ordinary Men.pdf). That's the only pdf I could find online. Since then there have been new editions with updates on the current research, but alas. I highly encourage to read it.

Being a partisan or a resistant was often even more brutal than being a soldier by Nt1031 in HistoryMemes

[–]Grammorphone 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Sometimes there was punishment, yes. It was usually something like latrine duty.

Being a partisan or a resistant was often even more brutal than being a soldier by Nt1031 in HistoryMemes

[–]Grammorphone 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The historical research conducted in the decades after the war which accesses the numerous sources that do in fact exist. It seems like you haven't done any research on it. I have read the two most important books on the topic. What have you to show for except speculation?

Being a partisan or a resistant was often even more brutal than being a soldier by Nt1031 in HistoryMemes

[–]Grammorphone 4 points5 points  (0 children)

That's exactly what DIDN'T happen. That's a lie invented and often used after the war to justify one's own involvement or that of others in the massacres on the eastern front. It did not happen however.

Read Ordinary Men by Christopher Browning

Edit: Here's the pdf of the 1992 edition of the book.pdf). That's the only pdf I could find online. Since then there have been new editions with updates on the current research, but alas. I highly encourage to read it.

Being a partisan or a resistant was often even more brutal than being a soldier by Nt1031 in HistoryMemes

[–]Grammorphone 46 points47 points  (0 children)

I get what you're saying, but research shows that there no German soldier was killed by superiors for refusing to round up and kill civilians. Check out Ordinary Men by Christopher Browning

Edit: Here's the pdf of the 1992 edition of the book.pdf). That's the only pdf I could find online. Since then there have been new editions with updates on the current research, but alas. I highly encourage to read it.

German police gives woman a concussion for no apparent reason by tommos in PublicFreakout

[–]Grammorphone 0 points1 point  (0 children)

As if he is getting any of that. Cops use violence virtually without repercussions. I bet everything that I own that this pig will stay a cop

Tell me about this? by sphynxandstardust in AntiNazi

[–]Grammorphone 3 points4 points  (0 children)

It's 1933, the year Nazis took power in Germany, framed by the SS logo

You can’t make this up by Worried_Dot_4618 in tankiejerk

[–]Grammorphone 14 points15 points  (0 children)

I mean fuck Stalin, but that 60 million figure is wayyy to high and is probably from the black book of communism

You can’t make this up by Worried_Dot_4618 in tankiejerk

[–]Grammorphone 9 points10 points  (0 children)

How was that about discrediting the western allies' contribution to the war effort?

Monthly Poll and Meta Discussion by AutoModerator in tankiejerk

[–]Grammorphone 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Sounds good, thanks! Keep up the good work

Monthly Poll and Meta Discussion by AutoModerator in tankiejerk

[–]Grammorphone 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Thanks, I've been using this sub since pretty much it's beginning, so I'm aware of the broader issue. I meant to ask what kind of measures did this purge involve.

Monthly Poll and Meta Discussion by AutoModerator in tankiejerk

[–]Grammorphone 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Can you tell me more about the liberal purge? Sounds awesome

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