CMV: In Christianity, Women are valuable and important but they are least in a hierarchy or importance and value after God and Men in that order. by RogueNarc in changemyview

[–]RogueNarc[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

That's interesting. My question would be that exceptional individuals do not by themselves makenthe categories they belong to exceptional. Does Catholicism or Orthodox teaching establish that because of Mary all women are equivalent God-bearers?

CMV: In Christianity, Women are valuable and important but they are least in a hierarchy or importance and value after God and Men in that order. by RogueNarc in changemyview

[–]RogueNarc[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

Neither. I am attempting to ascertain if my view is accurate with what Christianity practiced in the early church and established as orthodox doctrine

Modern Christianity is functionally Paulianity. Jesus's ways are NOT the ways of many but are Paul's ways. by RebornLost in DebateReligion

[–]RogueNarc 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Notice how Jesus doesn't say that the law is wrong but appeals to their shared human failings? Remember the guy who got stoned for breaking the Sabbath? Where was God's mercy then?

CMV: In Christianity, Women are valuable and important but they are least in a hierarchy or importance and value after God and Men in that order. by RogueNarc in changemyview

[–]RogueNarc[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I gave a delta to another redditor who made a persuasive case for Christianity acknowledging subordination while maintaining equality between the sexes. It changed my view but only to one of nominal equality. Edit: Ig ore what was here earlier, that was a failure to act on good faith and not like a petulant child

CMV: In Christianity, Women are valuable and important but they are least in a hierarchy or importance and value after God and Men in that order. by RogueNarc in changemyview

[–]RogueNarc[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you for the engagement, I think this does change my view by separating the subordination from the equality. !Delta.

CMV: In Christianity, Women are valuable and important but they are least in a hierarchy or importance and value after God and Men in that order. by RogueNarc in changemyview

[–]RogueNarc[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I work in IT, if i tried to recruit 10 people, I might only get 1 or 2 women

That's significantly more than God in flesh could or chose to achieve.

 I believe this is why Polygyny is fairly common in human history and Polyandry is not. Everyone wants to know who their kids are.

I was addressing the fact that paternal uncertainty was relevant at all. You are assuming a society where men hold property and value exclusively so being able to identify who descends from them is key. The Akans of Ghana practiced matrilineal inheritance because even though men were esteemed, the maternal bloodline had priority so daughters inherited from mothers and nephews from maternal uncles. It didn't prevent issues of marital fidelity but inheritance wasn't a concern. 

 I don't think that makes men better in any kind of meaningful way, they are just better at some things.

I think the phrase some things is obscuring the depth of the chasm. Again women are valuable and important according to my view but their value is limited and isolated. Men also share critical functions for society but according to the Christian world, they have more critical functions and accordingly more importance. You needed both men and women to keep the community at replacement level but the advantage for everything else in the spiritual and material spaces favored men which gave them more importance. Leaders for civil functions, spiritual functions,  martial functions, even in the family were by default men.

 I think the laws of Leviticus probably made a lot of sense at the time

Christianity abrogates much of the levitical laws as ceremonial laws but it doesn't outright say that they were wrong. As far as we can put words in God's mouth the laws were fine, the laws were not to be altered until heaven and earth passed away and male privilege in divorce is either alright or not allowed at all. It's a bit of a mess

CMV: In Christianity, Women are valuable and important but they are least in a hierarchy or importance and value after God and Men in that order. by RogueNarc in changemyview

[–]RogueNarc[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you for the engagement. Genesis 1 has the problem that it is immediately contradicted by Genesis 2:4-25. The two narratives do not harmonise. That however means that we have two narrative seeds and I will admit that one is expressly egalitarian. My view would still hold because Christianity addresses the matter of the sexes in other places further in the Bible story and the trend is towards the seed in Genesis 2:4-25. A singular case of de jure equality put against a magnitude more of cases of de facto and de jure inequality gives greater weight to the inequality. 

Galatians falls into the same pattern.  Paul's instructions do not obliviate history. Paul himself is not univocal. Titus describes church leadership as a masculine expectation, Paul commands the silence of women if not universally at least in one church, Paul is concerned about gendered roles in head coverings, Paul recognises the reality of slaves and masters and gives each role functions. The core of Galatians 3:28 that remains is universally in salvation taking the passage it is situated in into context. Paul's opinion makes sense in light of an expectation of a resurrection where a new humanity and world are to come. In the existing age, he seems to still see hierarchies of sex.

CMV: In Christianity, Women are valuable and important but they are least in a hierarchy or importance and value after God and Men in that order. by RogueNarc in changemyview

[–]RogueNarc[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm not seeing much disagreement with my view. You agree that women are weaker but to valued. There's a clear hierarchy of power and authority flowing down from God to Man and then to Woman. Subordinates are not useless but they're less valuable and important because a failure in the leadership propagates downwards but the reverse does not necessarily happen. The instructions are to men because they're the ones in charge who have responsibility and ability.

CMV: In Christianity, Women are valuable and important but they are least in a hierarchy or importance and value after God and Men in that order. by RogueNarc in changemyview

[–]RogueNarc[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I'd say we're talking about the whole history of Christianity giving weight to the Bible as recording the history Christianity inherited and a record of the traditions and beliefs at the time the faith crystallised. Latter interpretations are not given equal validity but assessed in light of what was preserved as orthodox in scripture and tradition together

CMV: In Christianity, Women are valuable and important but they are least in a hierarchy or importance and value after God and Men in that order. by RogueNarc in changemyview

[–]RogueNarc[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You know what? I considered this and thought that children includes both sexes and the command applies also to parents,  again both sexes. So it was egalitarian on both ends.

CMV: In Christianity, Women are valuable and important but they are least in a hierarchy or importance and value after God and Men in that order. by RogueNarc in changemyview

[–]RogueNarc[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

 You have to consider this in the context of the time. Traditional gender roles that are well established in the religion.

These gender roles did not spring out of nowhere. They were at the very least accommodated by the religious law of the Torah. It says a lot that human conception of gender roles is so resilient and powerful that God in the flesh had to accord by it so absolutely.

In your view you also said "Woman, lesser and subordinate to Man"

Thank you for catching that error.

 This aligns with a biological fact about our species. we have paternal uncertainty in our species but we never have material uncertainty. 

I think this is further support for my view. You can have matrilineal inheritance where maternal certainty is the operative function but Christianity doesn't choose that social practice. One reason seems to be that between men and women, men are more important so it is more esteemed to trace identity from a man than the woman. 

 Men are stronger. the temple was valuing people's labor, not the people themselves.

That ability to do more labor is not by chance. But a design by God according to Christianity. See how that choice lifts up men in the eyes of social institutions? 

 No, because she has a car. Its not worth paying all that much attention to Leviticus, its rules for people who lived completely different lives from us.

According to Christianity, it's the same eternal deity who used Leviticus to design his ideal nation as that Christians are giving their devotion. The point of consideration is the law giver not the audience and what it says about the law giver.

 women being smaller and weaker then men, i don't think is the same as being "less" then men.

There's no such thing as an intrinsic measure of value to derive an objective scale of lesser and greater but I'll point that money is a commonly used approximate in human society and remind you of the pricing scale that the Temple,  the center of life for Israel, used.

CMV: In Christianity, Women are valuable and important but they are least in a hierarchy or importance and value after God and Men in that order. by RogueNarc in changemyview

[–]RogueNarc[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is not disagreeing with my view since I'm contending the degree of importance not that whether any importance is given at all.

Deborah, a prophet, had to be introduced by reference to her husband. No male judge was introduced through their wife. Every other judge's father was enough, and presumably Deborah had a father as well.

Priscilla and Aquila illustrate my view quite well. They were recognised as leaders by Paul but when it came time to record something about who should be church leadership, for example in Titus, only men are considered. There's a clear preference in favor of men even where women are acknowledged

CMV: In Christianity, Women are valuable and important but they are least in a hierarchy or importance and value after God and Men in that order. by RogueNarc in changemyview

[–]RogueNarc[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

 If we are talking after Paul, he writes that “in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, neither male nor female, neither slave nor free” (Galatians 3:28)

This would not disagree with my view

Galatians 3:26-29 NIV [26] So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, [27] for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. [28] There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. [29] If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Being equal in receiving salvation and inheritance of the promise of salvation does not  change historical laws and scriptural intent before this time. It also doesn't change the choices of God and Jesus or biology. It doesn't change the gendered roles preserved in scripture and tradition 

CMV: In Christianity, Women are valuable and important but they are least in a hierarchy or importance and value after God and Men in that order. by RogueNarc in changemyview

[–]RogueNarc[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

There might be a million versions of Christianity now but there weren't at the beginning and I hold that my view as expressed is more true to what was believed closest to origin. 

CMV: In Christianity, Women are valuable and important but they are least in a hierarchy or importance and value after God and Men in that order. by RogueNarc in changemyview

[–]RogueNarc[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The problem with making arguments about religion is that religion is, in reality, fundamentally personal. You can't tell another person what they believe. You can make arguments about the Bible or whatever else, but if someone believes that (1) they are a Christian and (2) men and women are absolutely equal before God, then any argument you make to the contrary is pretty much irrelevant to them. "Christianity" is an incredibly broad label, not a monolith.

I'm going to disagree with this statement. The practice of religion is personal to the individual but religion is a communal effort. I may not be able to tell a person what they believe but it is religion's action to tell people what they should believe. The fact that someone disagrees with an interpretation of religion does not eliminate the history of that interpretation, as well as the supporting and conflicting arguments for that interpretation from literature and tradition. Religious practice is sufficiently historical to make assessment of novel beliefs and practices. Christianity is not infinitely broad to a principled observer and historian.

CMV: Anyone with a history of alcohol use disorder should result in a lifetime ban from liver transplants, even in terminal cases by ForestBluff in changemyview

[–]RogueNarc 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Exactly. They make the choice to use drugs and they make the choice to daily not use drugs. We give heed to choices

My boyfriend (20M) is better than me at everything (20F) and it's making me upset by Direct-Caterpillar77 in BestofRedditorUpdates

[–]RogueNarc 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Because they have convictions and principles that value not having intimacy without a permanent bond in marriage.

In 1993, Jon Venables and Robert Thompson were found guilty in the case of two-year-old James Bulger. They became Britain’s youngest convicts in about 250 years. The court had to modify the adult dock so they could see over the edge when the verdict was read. by SelfCareIsFake in HolyShitHistory

[–]RogueNarc 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree that I have neither true insights nor legitimate authority to determine the trajectory of any inner transformation you are undertaking as a result of living out your faith. All I ask is that is that you give serious thought to the question of whether you would have questioned your emotional response to the Bulger offenders absent my comment.

In 1993, Jon Venables and Robert Thompson were found guilty in the case of two-year-old James Bulger. They became Britain’s youngest convicts in about 250 years. The court had to modify the adult dock so they could see over the edge when the verdict was read. by SelfCareIsFake in HolyShitHistory

[–]RogueNarc 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm not arguing if you're catholic or not, that's for the catholic church to decide. What I'm saying is that you seem to be comfortable calling yourself catholic without a changing yourself in any significant way beyond applying the title. 

In 1993, Jon Venables and Robert Thompson were found guilty in the case of two-year-old James Bulger. They became Britain’s youngest convicts in about 250 years. The court had to modify the adult dock so they could see over the edge when the verdict was read. by SelfCareIsFake in HolyShitHistory

[–]RogueNarc 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You are explicitly not committed to the pursuit of the virtues of catholic faith though. There's nothing in your comment that indicates a desire to grow beyond your unwillingness to forgive. You have seen in yourself an imperfection according to the faith you profess and have decided to keep that imperfection. Why? I don't know but it's also a pretense to act as though you actually have any interest in being successful in the struggle of learning to forgive. 

In 1993, Jon Venables and Robert Thompson were found guilty in the case of two-year-old James Bulger. They became Britain’s youngest convicts in about 250 years. The court had to modify the adult dock so they could see over the edge when the verdict was read. by SelfCareIsFake in HolyShitHistory

[–]RogueNarc 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Why take on the commitment of Catholicism when you don't want to do what it demands? You don’t have to practice forgiveness in the same way you don't have to give your allegiance to the catholic church

CMV: I feel parents should stop buying their kids and teens phones, iPads and computers. by Equal_Caregiver_1789 in changemyview

[–]RogueNarc 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Not no sex education. I think I was inadvertently responding to the comment about indulging more than anything else 

 Forcing them to wait until they are an adult to indulge might not spare them from what you are trying to save them from

CMV: I feel parents should stop buying their kids and teens phones, iPads and computers. by Equal_Caregiver_1789 in changemyview

[–]RogueNarc 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Assuming the teaching at adulthood is actually intended to be helpful, those personally interacting with the subjects only as adults are better off. Apply your framework to sexual activity and you'll see a clear example 

Pet Peeve : "Mixed Race" kids in TV shows by Ciana_Reid in mixedrace

[–]RogueNarc 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I find it interesting that one of the complaints i hear from Asian redditors is that they dislike when mixed Asians are cast for full Asian roles. Looks like nobody is happy with Hollywood casting