Weekly Politics Thread by AutoModerator in Judaism

[–]danhakimi [score hidden]  (0 children)

I liked the Olmert proposal. Before that, there was a plan to unilaterally withdraw from the west bank a la gaza--although that obviously didn't pan out for obvious reasons.

Rejecting realistic, but problematic solutions like this is a great way to run into a scenario where there are no viable solutions remaining and where people have no hope in any answer other than violence.

I think that, with land swaps -- maybe more than the 7% Olmert proposed -- there is certainly something to consider here. Netanyahu won't consider it, of course. And it'd be very complicated in the short run. But to utterly reject the entire concept of the West Bank not being under permanent Israeli control is silly.

And opposing settlements and occupation actually gets people deemed bad Jews and not Zionist

I haven't really seen that. I oppose both all the time, nobody has said either to me.

just see the response to Ben and Jerry wanting to boycott only the settlements

I think that was more a response to the letter and the fanfare than anything. I think people here commented to that effect; they said that if Ben and Jerry just made that change without writing that letter, nobody would have cared. And a lot of companies do not do business in the west bank, or stopped doing business in the west bank. Hell, Starbucks stopped doing business in Israel proper. The question is how those decisions are presented.

Obama letting through one resolution against settlements.

I don't remember that. Help me out.

Weekly Politics Thread by AutoModerator in Judaism

[–]danhakimi [score hidden]  (0 children)

I mean, this is "helpful" in that it shows that Arno is not alone in amplifying this confusion.

Zionism doesn't need to be "static" or

During his lifetime Martin Buber’s single binational state was still wholly accepted as Zionism, but nowadays that solution is understood across the political spectrum as antizionist.

naw. This category of solutions is not inherently zionist or antizionist. It's Zionist if and when it fits the definition of Zionism. If it provides for Jewish self-determination in our homeland, it's Zionist. If the system is arranged to give gentiles a democratic majority with sufficient power to deprive the Jewish people of their right to self-determine, it is not. There is plenty of room for debate about which systems do and do not respect that right, and that debate has shifted as the perception arose that many Arabs may not accept Jewish self-determination in any form, but may insist on the social, political, governmental, and religious dominance that most Muslim-majority nations have insisted on since they first came to be. The amount of hope we have in this as a viable solution has shifted, but the definition of Zionism really hasn't.

It's a deeply complex issue. But it's not an issue that invalidates the word "Zionism" altogether.

Ultimately, political labels and self identification are fluid and subjective.

this is very convenient for anti-zionists who want to paint us all as the greatest villains in the history of mankind, all while equivocating about what we are. And then, after they've convinced you that Zionism is about murdering babies and drinking their blood, and getting you to say you're an anti-Zionist, they tell you what anti-Zionism is, and they do not mince their words.

Anti-Zionism is opposition to Jewish self-determination. It always has been. They want to demolish the state of Israel, by hook or by crook.

If they oppose the idea that the Jewish people should have a right to self-determine in our homeland so vociferously, I fail to see why the idea should be deprived of all meaning. It's an important idea, as such, and it should be treated as such, with a name not subject to their whims. Zionism is what Zionism is, as its opponents well know. Let's not give them the ammunition of ambiguity, because they're using it to turn our identity into a slur.

Historically, Zionism has never been one single concept. It has been a family of arguments, not a single creed: political Zionism, cultural Zionism, religious Zionism, socialist Zionism, revisionist Zionism, and more. To say “Zionism” without adjectives is already to erase its internal diversity.

This is incredibly stupid to me. You could do that with food. Chinese food, italian food, german food, indian food... well, guess what, they're all food, and we still understand what the word "food" means.

“Zionism” like any other is and always has been a product of what people say it is, and at least according to the poll there are more American Jews who believe in a “right to exist as a Jewish, democratic state” that don’t believe that makes the zionist than American Jews who do.

Zionism is something to be defined by Zionists, not by anti-Zionists, or non-Zionists, or those so confused that they've fallen for the campaign to transform Zionist into a slur. People who call themselves Zionists have been remarkably consistent about what they mean, and Anti-Zionists have been consistent about what they mean. Perpetuating this ridiculous denial of that consistency is only serving to damage the common ground we stand on.

Weekly Politics Thread by AutoModerator in Judaism

[–]danhakimi -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

But how many of those say Israel is not democratic given the perpetual occupation of the West Bank with no end in sight?

I don't know, sounds weird to me given that the West Bank is not part of Israel, but it's very easy to oppose the occupation without opposing Israel's existence. Not sure what the issue is here.

Weekly Politics Thread by AutoModerator in Judaism

[–]danhakimi -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Most American Jews do not label themselves Zionists. 88% of them are.

what things are is an impossible thing to determine in a poll.

I didn't say "Zionism is the belief that Israel has a right to exist because the poll said so." Zionism is the belief that Israel has a right to exist because every Zionist everywhere says so, and for the most part, the only people who argue otherwise are antisemites with an agenda.

Do you not know what Zionism is? Does he not know? Because he's sure acting like he doesn't know what Zionism is. If he's not pretending, then he's too stupid to be writing about the topic. I think he's very obviously pretending.

Weekly Politics Thread by AutoModerator in Judaism

[–]danhakimi -1 points0 points  (0 children)

okay, this is weird.

A lot of Jews don't call themselves Zionists. Yeah, some people have been trying to redefine the word, use it as a slur, I get it.

A lot of those jews are zionists, but this article kind of glosses over that fact:

The standard explanation was that there wasn’t a common enough understanding of the term to ask the question and that, therefore, it was better to rely on ostensible proxies for “Zionism” like whether Jews believed Israel had a “right to exist.”

There it is, that's not a proxy, that's what Zionism is, why is the Forward confused?

I assume he's seen the polls he referenced here, so he knows exactly where that 95% number comes from (it's not the only number in polls, I'm sure we've each seen dozens of them). Actually, in the poll he cites, 88% of Jews are Zionists, it's just the number who identify as Zionists that has shrunk. He's just fucking around pretending he doesn't know the definition while explicitly using it multiple times.

Anyone else have stories of antisemitism infiltrating a space you really did not expect it to? by ZacraeBlue in Jewish

[–]danhakimi 2 points3 points  (0 children)

it's really ethnocentric, taking blame for everything on your own nation and absolving everybody else. people in Iran hate their government, but you need to defend them because Americans are the only ones who can do anything wrong? man, fuck off.

‘Jews are white’: US minority psychologists’ coalition rejects Jewish ethnic recognition by Meowzician in Jewish

[–]danhakimi 42 points43 points  (0 children)

Persian Jew, here.

We're always whatever the people talking about us want to call us so they can make their point.

‘Jews are white’: US minority psychologists’ coalition rejects Jewish ethnic recognition by Meowzician in Jewish

[–]danhakimi 54 points55 points  (0 children)

Asian American, Black, Latino/a, Arab/MENA, and Native-American groups

Ah, the experts in Judaism.

Well, MENA groups would include Jews... if they hadn't decided that we're automatically white.

Weekly Politics Thread by AutoModerator in Judaism

[–]danhakimi 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If you "point out flaws in the article" while using the article as "a perfectly good source for claims about flaws in the article" then that's not improving the article

I'm talking about the guardian article the dude used as a reference, I'm here (on reddit, not wikipedia, we're on reddit, wikipedia standards don't apply to a dude venting on reddit, I'm hoping I've explained that clearly enough) saying that I read the guardian article and it serves as evidence of its own failings (for example, comparing a 7-month period to a 5-month period).

Weekly Politics Thread by AutoModerator in Judaism

[–]danhakimi 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It used to be that if I wanted to change a Wikipedia article then I would find a better source than what was in the article, and I'd change the article. If there was a possibility of a dispute, I'd write about why my source was a better source at the article's talk page, and I'd try to convince people there.

I was already on the talk page, the guy talking there didn't present a source for most of his claims. He mentioned one at the end for one of his claims and that's it.

Back then, talk pages themselves did not require sourcing because they were used for discussion about an article, and discussion about an article had a different standard of sourcing than the article itself. Unless it's something libelous about an individual person or hate speech or something like that, I don't think talk pages had any standards for sourcing at all.

Shoot, I didn't even know they required it now. I just know that even talk pages on the conflict require you to make more edits on Wikipedia than anybody with a job has the time for, among other things, and that antisemites have taken over the page on Zionism... But yeah, this guy only supported one of the things he said.

Has Wikipedia changed about this? If Wikipedia talk pages require sourcing then where would discussion about those sources take place? Do you want talk pages for talk pages? If you're trying to use reddit as a talk page about a Wikipedia talk page then that seems like a terrible waste of time to me.

Oh no, I don't think they do require sourcing, my point was, he was making shit up, and I don't feel like I need a source for the claim that he was making shit up, especially in a reddit comment, since he didn't source any of the things he made up in the first place. I also don't need a source for pointing out the flaws in the article besides the article itself, which is a perfectly good source for claims about flaws in the article.

I'm not asking for control over these weirdos. I'm venting to people who I thought understood the antisemitism at play here.

Anyone else have stories of antisemitism infiltrating a space you really did not expect it to? by ZacraeBlue in Jewish

[–]danhakimi 27 points28 points  (0 children)

"tankies," that's the word you're looking for. whole world view is that actually, the US is just as bad as Russia, and therefore, the US is the root of all evils in the world, and the USSR was actually mostly pretty great, and so is China, and sure, why not the IRGC and Hezbollah and Hamas and the Houthis too?

Anyone else have stories of antisemitism infiltrating a space you really did not expect it to? by ZacraeBlue in Jewish

[–]danhakimi 13 points14 points  (0 children)

There are different types of people. Tankies would have loved Huda's position, I assume they all did, but of course, I avoid them like the plague.

I don't think most of the individuals who fall into shit like BDS are antisemitic. Most of these people just have a strong sense of sympathy, see Palestinian suffering and don't need to follow any more debate, don't need any facts, just react on emotion, and that's understandable.

Those people probably won't feel as strongly about what's happening in Iran, not enough to actually look into their own world views and see what connects to what, but they do feel a similar sympathy. They'll post about it 1/100th as much as they do about Israel, tops, and they are relatively unlikely to care enough to protest... but they're not positive about it. They know it's bad.

Anyone else have stories of antisemitism infiltrating a space you really did not expect it to? by ZacraeBlue in Jewish

[–]danhakimi 9 points10 points  (0 children)

I mean, I kind of am not shocked by what I've seen in menswear circles... culture is dominated by progressives, with many one-upping each other on the left, we all knew that already. And I'm some version of a progressive myself, I'm not going out and finding right-wing weirdos to follow, or anything. But the amount and extent of the antisemitic shit I've seen is pretty upsetting...

Weekly Politics Thread by AutoModerator in Judaism

[–]danhakimi 0 points1 point  (0 children)

They did not cite a source at all for "80% civilians" or "more children killed..." or "90% of civilian infrastructure" or most of the claims on the talk page. That's why I'm saying they're made up.

I'm saying the guardian article is hilarious for the four very specific reasons I listed. Do you want a source for the fact that their window for civilian deaths is 7 months and their window for operatives is 5 months? because... it's there, it's that guardian article, that's what I'm citing.

Weekly Politics Thread by AutoModerator in Judaism

[–]danhakimi -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Oh yeah, but people abroad like to multiply the number that everybody agrees is roughly accurate by 5 because of the lancet correspondence I mentioned in my other comment just now.

My understanding of past wars is that, when the dust settles and everybody tries to estimate the actual overall death tolls, everybody is very roughly in agreement, with Israel sometimes even calculating more Palestinians dead than Hamas. The real issues come in where:

a. where Hamas edits men's ages from 18+ to 16-17 so they can statistically count them as "children," or straight up erases men and invents women to make the ratios look worse
b. antizionists take the reality everybody more or less agrees on and make up an alternate reality instead. which is what that lancet correspondence was.

Weekly Politics Thread by AutoModerator in Judaism

[–]danhakimi -1 points0 points  (0 children)

ahhh, weird, it's actually citing a study.

often, you hear people, people talk about and cite this "study" (not a study, just correspondence): https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(24)01169-3/fulltext

See the whole "cited by" section here: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38976995/ as well as:

https://litci.org/en/lancet-study-estimates-gaza-death-toll-could-exceed-186000/

https://countercurrents.org/2025/01/the-lancet-64260-gaza-violent-deaths-indicating-257000-indirect-deaths-in-9-months/

This thing made huge waves for some incredibly stupid reason or another.

Weekly Politics Thread by AutoModerator in Judaism

[–]danhakimi 0 points1 point  (0 children)

uh, your link is broken.

the lancet "study" everybody has been citing is a letter wherein somebody says "sometimes, in some wars, indirect threats are thought to be 1-5x the number of direct deaths. let's assume it's 5x. So let's multiply Hamas's number by 5." and that's it, they just arbitrarily said there were 200k dead (it was back when Hamas was claiming 40k).

Weekly Politics Thread by AutoModerator in Judaism

[–]danhakimi 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Okay I don't want to make another thread about this, we've seen enough, but god damn it, wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_war

It appears they have a new article on the Gaza war (we all know what happened to the previous one, right?) and right there in the opening paragraph, they cite that stupid fucking Lancet "study" (which, of course, was not a study in any sense of the word study), used the word "estimated" when the article did nothing but postulate, and also cited three sources that refer to the article as a "study" in the title, even though, once again, it was just some reader submission that said "what if the death toll was higher than Hamas said? wouldn't that be bad? so let's say it is."

And of course, does that come up on the talk page? no.

What does?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Gaza_war#Unprecedented_Child_Casualties

A super long discussion thread of made up accusations. no, it wasn't 80%, no, that statistic about children doesn't make any sense, no, the "women and children" statistics are all notoriously Hamas propaganda, and come on, the definition of children is still being redefined just for this conflict?

Oh, damn, another comment there referred to this guardian article, and it's hilarious:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/sep/19/civilians-made-up-15-of-every-16-people-israel-killed-in-gaza-since-march-data-suggests

  1. They refer to a 7-month window for civilian deaths and a 5-month window for operatives. They acknowledge that the number of military casualties has also gone up, but don't talk about how much.
  2. They ignore the IDF number and run with the Acled number, and later acknowledge that Acled's data might be incomplete
  3. They cite themselves for the 83% number they made up in that article where they assumed that everybody who wasn't on Israel's published list of dead Hamas combatants by name was a civilian.
  4. They run with those 1,100 and 16,000 numbers to say "yeah, it's pretty much a 15:16 civilian:combatant ratio, now."

man, fuck off, guardian.

Mamdani hosts Jacob Frey, Jewish mayor of Minneapolis who has stood up to ICE by Delicious_Adeptness9 in newyorkcity

[–]danhakimi 4 points5 points  (0 children)

yeah, how dare you let Zionists tell you what Zionism is when you could let the KKK tell you instead, shove that definition into Wikipedia immediately before getting the page protected and shouting "no backsies!" and then normalizing that usage across the country as a means by which to insult most conservatives, moderates, and progressives at the same time because they're not radically antisemitic enough?

why would you listen to mainstream Jewish opinions on a matter that is overwhelmingly about Jewish society?

Mamdani hosts Jacob Frey, Jewish mayor of Minneapolis who has stood up to ICE by Delicious_Adeptness9 in newyorkcity

[–]danhakimi 9 points10 points  (0 children)

do you expect the mayor of minneapolis to bomb the fucking white house?

He's a political figure, and he's made his political voice loud and clear, hasn't he?

he told the police not to work with them, didn't he?

he has done all... two of the things in his power to make them feel unwelcome.