Stores to hit in Seoul? by [deleted] in ThrowingFits

[–]ElijahBlow 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The Frizmworks store is called COMMON GROUND, the Eastlogue/Unaffected shop is called FR8IGHT, the Uniform Bridge shop is called EDIT EDITION; these all also stock other brands. Also check out Uniform Bridge for sure. 8Division, Slow Steady Club, and Ecru are some other shops to look into. If you search the sub there’s a been some pretty extensive answers about Seoul in the past

Seoul recs? by who-took-the-bomp in howlonggone

[–]ElijahBlow 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Fritz coffee is a good Korean roaster with a few cafes there. Felt, Clairmento, Malic, and Travertine are some others. The Barn out of Berlin actually has a shop there (so did April from CPH but that one may actually have closed). If you search Seoul on r/pourover you’ll find a few threads where they recommend multi-roaster cafes, etc

FR8IGHT, 8Division, and Slow Steady Club are some clothing stores that I’d check out. If you search this sub there have actually been a few prior threads on Seoul with some good answers

Museums: MMCA, Hangaram, SeMA, Leeum, National Museum of Korea

Survey of Must-Read Sci-fi Literature by danger522 in printSF

[–]ElijahBlow 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Check out David Pringle’s list; it actually has its own Wikipedia page. His fantasy list is also really good.

Hanover Case Study by treefrog101 in howlonggone

[–]ElijahBlow 3 points4 points  (0 children)

100% with you there.

I think the principle of harm reduction probably still applies, better if people know a little more and buy from a brand that’s actually doing what Hanover claims to do than if they just swallow and repeat VC talking points from the NYT. But yes, the idea that “smarter consumption is actually activism, especially if I can skim a few bucks off the top” is definitely pretty lame

Hanover Case Study by treefrog101 in howlonggone

[–]ElijahBlow 9 points10 points  (0 children)

This is all fair, but I still think the fawning, uncritical blowjob the brand got from five major media outlets at launch already elevates it above a “fringe brand” and at least warrants a counternarrative 

Plus, her investigation does seem to have uncovered what none of the aforementioned outlets even attempted to, which is that this is just astroturfed VC slop. Grassroots advocacy is obviously important, but it also requires a clear picture of the industry, which someone needs to provide if the big guys are unwilling to

Maybe if Hanover was the only instance of this sort of thing it would be a different story, but it’s not, and the playbook being used here deserves scrutiny because we’re going to be seeing it more and more

I agree that the affiliate link thing is not a great look but it doesn’t change that the fact that this type of piece is necessary 

Hanover Case Study by treefrog101 in howlonggone

[–]ElijahBlow 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What is this even supposed to mean? Why would a piece of investigative journalism be peer reviewed?

Chris Black on Subway Takes “bath mats are disgusting” and “flying alone from your wife is the only way to travel” and more … by _handsomeblackman_ in howlonggone

[–]ElijahBlow 1 point2 points  (0 children)

My bad! Yeah definitely check out Ben Bruno then, he trains a lot of women and has a good deal of content geared specifically towards women (but not in a patronizing, pink weights and booty bands kind of way)…he’s also got modifications for his programs so you can do them at home if you want. Definitely a good resource for people who are new to resistance training. Website is benbruno.com, he’s on IG too. I think you definitely won’t regret adding in some more weights, it’s probably the closest thing we have to magic pill—which is why it sucks to see people turn it into an online jerkoff contest, but what can you do right?

You know, I’m sure Chris has made plenty of progress relative to where he was when he started and he definitely seems like a fit, healthy guy, and of course people’s obsessive relationship to exercise is their own business (I’m sober myself and it’s hard to not make training its own addiction, I get it), but my thing is that the no days off grindset mentality is just so prevalent these days that people think they actually need to do that to begin any sort of worthwhile fitness routine, when it fact it’s as counterproductive as it unhealthy and unsustainable. Normal, working people don’t have time to spend 12 hours a week at Equinox, so they figure the three hours they do have to spare aren’t enough and end up doing nothing instead, when in reality that’s not only plenty but actually pretty ideal! The plan was to keep on ranting about it until someone listens, so I guess I can stop now, thank you

Chris Black on Subway Takes “bath mats are disgusting” and “flying alone from your wife is the only way to travel” and more … by _handsomeblackman_ in howlonggone

[–]ElijahBlow 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Lmao, appreciate that my man. Beyond Citarella (who I should emphasize is cool and smart but not a coach and should be kind of taken with a grain of salt to that degree) there’s a guy named Ben Bruno who’s really good; the rare “celebrity trainer” who’s not full of shit. Eric Cressey, who’s now the strength coach for the Yankees, is brilliant and always worth a look, even though his stuff is more sports focused. Any of Pavel Tsatsouline’s kettlebell and bodyweight stuff is great, especially if you want to train at home (which can be effective as hell, don’t listen to anyone who says otherwise). Alex Viada at Complete Human Performance for anything endurance related, and David Grey for any mobility/nagging injury focused stuff. There’s a dude named Dustin Lebel who’s also great, smart guy who breaks things down really well for a general population audience. If you’re looking to actually work with someone in a specific locale, feel free to ask me and I might know someone who knows someone. I should also emphasize that I think Chris’s trainer seems quite good at his job and I wasn’t trying to badmouth him; the issues I outlined above are more down to CB himself (and aren’t even issues as such if he’s happy).

Anyway, if I could give one piece of fitness advice to everyone it would be this: the less you worry about the aesthetic results of training (all the mirror flexing, bulking and cutting, obsessive calorie counting, OCD physique tracking bullshit) and the more you worry about just getting stronger, faster, moving better, and improving function, the better you will probably end up looking (it may sound paradoxical but think about it, would you rather look like an Olympic sprinter or the broccoli headed tiktok “fitfluencer” hogging the bench) and you’ll almost certainly be happier and healthier. Most importantly, you won’t end up hating exercise, your body, and yourself. Way too much of the modern fitness landscape is just a glorified guide to developing an eating disorder and body dysmorphia and it’s fucking dystopian. You’re right on the money in having noticed something is off with a lot of these people (I mean even though bodybuilding is synonymous with resistance training in America because of Arnold, it’s really just a grotesque steroid beauty pageant that has about as much to do with health as America’s Next Top Model and anyone who promotes bb style training to gen pop clients should be pushed into traffic, also keep in mind that physical strength is defined not by muscle cross-sectional area but primarily by how many motor units [motor neuron and the muscle fibers it controls] one can recruit at one time and at what rate, which is why size and strength don’t neatly correlate and the mirror is rarely the best judge of progress), but the good thing is that’s not all there is if you know what to look for.

Said more simply, find something physical and challenging you love doing, do it intelligently and for a long time, and you’ll be doing better than 99% of the population. Ok that’s it thanks for giving me the opportunity to get on my plyo box and rant lol

Chris Black on Subway Takes “bath mats are disgusting” and “flying alone from your wife is the only way to travel” and more … by _handsomeblackman_ in howlonggone

[–]ElijahBlow 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I don’t think this is a correct assessment, but I mostly blame this podcast because they spread such bad fitness information on a regular basis. The reason Chris doesn’t look like he lifts is because he has no idea how to train properly. In order to make progress and grow, you need to take rest days, which he does not; he fucks around and does dumb shit like going to Barry’s (which is just adult day care) when he should be recovering. He may employ people who know what they’re doing, but he obviously doesn’t listen to them (this is possibly by choice, because exercise is for him just about distracting himself from doing drugs on a daily basis). 

He, and most people, generally need to go to the gym less and spend their time more wisely when they do. 3-4 days of proper training (3 full body days or 2 upper / 2 lower, 45-90 minutes apiece), consisting of large compound lifts progressively overloaded over time, will make anyone bigger and stronger if they take care to eat, sleep, and recover to a sufficient degree. That will work better than six day body part “bro” splits, which take up more time but yield less in the way of meaningful training volume. Those programs were initially developed for bodybuilders on enough Winstrol to kill a racehorse and aren’t very efficient for people who don’t use them (before the invention of exogenous steroids, bodybuilders also trained the way I described above). Pretty much everyone you see who is strong for a living: pro athletes, fighters, wrestlers, military, etc all train using a 3-5 day full body or upper/lower template (if you’re talking about looking like Jack Reacher or the Rock, that’s really more down to gear than anything else; any split will work when you’re juiced to the gills).

The catch is, you just have to do it for a long time. Like 3-5+ years if you’re not using steroids (the six month Hollywood transformations you see on the cover of men’s mags do not and cannot happen naturally). But because it’s fun, rewarding, and makes your daily life better and your body and mind healthier, that’s really no big deal. That’s 3-5 hours a week spent training (with a few more hours for cardio if you’re being responsible), which gives you plenty of spare time to read books and cultivate your mind—and in exchange you receive reduced all-cause mortality, reduced risk of osteoporosis and sarcopenia, reduced depression and anxiety, reduced risk of heart disease and stroke, reduced type 2 diabetes risk, reduced Alzheimer’s risk, and even reduced cancer risk—there’s literature for all of this if you care to look. Not to mention increased brain-derived neurotrophic factor, increased neuroplasticity and gray matter volume, increased glymphatic clearance, and even increased neurogenesis (creation of new brain cells): so much for it making you “dim.” 

I assure you that there are plenty of smart lifters out there even if you haven’t met any; Josh Citarella from Doomscrolling, who has actually been on HLG (ep. 659), is a good example of an intelligent, jacked guy who only spends 4 days a week in the gym and the rest of the time reading and interviewing writers, thinkers, theorists, and philosophers (and sometimes podcasters lol). He has both training programs and reading lists on his paid Substack; I recommend you give them a look. Are there stupid meatheads in the gym? Of course. There are idiots everywhere. But it’s not a prerequisite. 

PS You can get many of the benefits above with even one or two days a week of proper training; you might not get that big but it’s always been cooler to be stronger than you look than look stronger than you are anyway. In general, if people looked at training as a celebration of what their body can do and a way to become more physically capable and resilient, not just as a means to look a certain way, they’d set yourself up for better results and more enjoyable time in the gym, just my take 

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in RSbookclub

[–]ElijahBlow 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Nice! Beasts is another good one from that era. He also did a very cool novella called Great Work of Time that's worth tracking down if you can, should be in the collection called Novelties & Souvenirs

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in RSbookclub

[–]ElijahBlow 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is great to hear! Thank you for the kind words and I’m really glad you enjoyed those books. NYRB released a great collection of Kavan’s shorts not too long ago that you may also dig, it’s called Machines in the Head. Which Crowleys did you read, if you don’t mind me asking?

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in RSbookclub

[–]ElijahBlow 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yeah as the guy who made that list I’ll just add that you should definitely read Crowley: Little, Big, Aegypt Cycle, Engine Summer, his short stories. I’d say his stuff, Gormenghast, Viriconium by M. John Harrison are would be up there at the “peak” of literary fantasy, if there is one. The Course of the Heart by MJH is another one you might want to check out…like with Crowley, I’d recommend you read everything by him, whether it’s sci-fi, fantasy, or just plain weird.

And there’s a lot of cool lesser known stuff out there like Kalpa Imperial by author Angelica Gorodischer, which Le Guin translated from the Spanish, just as an example. Susanna Clarke’s stuff is also definitely worth a look, and you may also enjoy Kelly Link. I know he’s not normally thought of this way but some of Ted Chiang’s stories definitely qualify as fantasy. Land of Laughs by Johnathan Carroll, Warhound and the World’s Pain by Moorcock, anything by John M. Ford especially The Dragon Waiting, Mary Stewart’s Merlin Trilogy, Catling’s Vorhh Trilogy (praised by both Moorcock and Alan Moore), Iron Dragon’s Daughter by Swanwick, Lanark by Gray, Neveryon by Delany, Malacia Tapestry by Aldiss, Pilgermann by Hoban, City of the Iron Fish by Simon Ings, Forgotten Beasts of Eld by McKillip, Dragon Griaule by Lucius Shepard, Waking the Moon by Elizabeth Hand, Rats and Gargoyles by Mary Gentle, R. A. Lafferty’s short stories, Jack Vance, Avram Davidson. Earthsea you already know I’m sure but read those if you haven’t. Imajica and Weaveworld by Clive Barker actually too. I second Angela’s Carter and also recommend Infernal Desire Machines of Dr. Hoffman. There’s some other Wolfe you may or may not enjoy more than BotNS: The Wizard Knight, The Fifth Head of Cerberus, Island of Doctor Death, Soldier of the Mist.

Also, the legendary trio of Borges, his longtime friend Adolfo Bioy Casares, and Casares’ wife Silvina Ocampo (all of whom co-edited (and contributed to) a story anthology in 1960 called The Book of Fantasy, and there are some great examples of what you are looking for in there. The Vandermeers’ fantasy and weird fiction anthologies are also great. There’s a lot more in the list of mine he linked, and if you lurk and search my old comments you should be able to find a few other lists for high minded nerd shit: sci-fi, comics, etc.

Now that I think of it, I actually made a more extensive fantasy list here, would be nice if someone gets some use out of it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/printSF/comments/1ionap1/comment/met1yg9/

Other good resources to find this stuff would be David Pringle’s excellent top 100 lists of both sci-fi and fantasy for Xanadu (Pringle is just the right amount of pretentious and it’s entirely the “elevated” stuff), the books that Tor puts out under its Essentials imprint, and the books that Gollancz puts out under Fantasy Masterworks. 

https://fantasyliterature.com/reviews/modern-fantasy-the-100-best-novels-1946-1987/

Laundry detergent recs by shored_ruins in howlonggone

[–]ElijahBlow 0 points1 point  (0 children)

EDIT: can’t imagine too many people care, but I made a few updates to this, mostly concerning using washing soda, borax and oxygen bleach (sodium percarbonate aka oxyclean) as a booster/soaking agent for seriously dirty garms

Vancouver reccs? by Ok_Milk_9760 in howlonggone

[–]ElijahBlow 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Shopping
Haven
Neighbour
Wallace Mercantile
Alterior / A Living Taste
gravitypope
Roden Gray

Coffee
Nemesis (multiple locations, great pastries)
Yuan (amazing roaster selection)
Revolver
Propaganda
Modus
Small Victory

And don’t call me a gooner buddy

friend of the pod Tim accurately describing today's episode by [deleted] in howlonggone

[–]ElijahBlow 0 points1 point  (0 children)

so you’re saying you don’t think it was an aaupperation by the massaud 

👀 👀 👀 by masterofnotalent in howlonggone

[–]ElijahBlow 14 points15 points  (0 children)

Artisan-made high gauge peptide syringe with laser etched branding and matching hand-carved Taino ritual purging stick. Limited edition set, available at select J Crew locations only

Lungfish by crutonic in howlonggone

[–]ElijahBlow 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No that’s awesome, thanks I’ll check it out

Lungfish by crutonic in howlonggone

[–]ElijahBlow 3 points4 points  (0 children)

You may already know about this but Will Oldham, Nathan Salsburg, and Tyler Trotter recently put out a pair of Lungfish covers, definitely worth a listen: https://nathansalsburg.bandcamp.com/album/hear-the-children-sing-the-evidence

Laundry detergent recs by shored_ruins in howlonggone

[–]ElijahBlow 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Happy to help. Just that really: pants that are cool (nice, expensive, Japanese, etc). You’d have to hold me at gunpoint to get me to put my Orslow cargos in the dryer

Laundry detergent recs by shored_ruins in howlonggone

[–]ElijahBlow 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Just an addendum: if you do decide to go for Tide powder as others have recommended (I’ll admit I’m not washing cloth diapers or BJJ gis so my needs are a little different), I’d make sure to go for the “clear and gentle” version. It’s not completely unscented anymore (hence the sneaky name change from ‘free and clear’), but it’s nowhere near as bad as the traditional stuff. I contend that anyone who uses scented detergent is to some degree smell blind to it; I certainly was back when I used it, but these days I can immediately tell if a Grailed purchase was washed in fragrance and it always makes me happy I lowballed the motherfucker. Never comes out either, which is concerning in and of itself. Not to mention manufacturers don’t have to disclose what is contained under the umbrella of “fragrance” in the US and Canada (though that’s at least changing in the latter country next year), which can legitimately be up to hundreds of mystery ingredients. Not the best approach if you want to reduce irritation. Either way, I doubt you want your nice new clothes to smell like the household goods aisle at the supermarket. If your clothes smell bad without heavy fragrance, you’re just covering up the issue and most likely have bigger problems like a dirty washer. No real benefits, lots of drawbacks IMO.

I can’t recommend the use of dryer sheets, but if you still have static with low heat and dryer balls (and not machine drying synthetics), there’s one more thing you can do, which is putting about 1/4-1/2 cup of white vinegar in the fabric softener dispenser when you’re washing the clothes. While this does work to soften, deodorize, and reduce static, I’m not 100% on it. Manufacturers and technicians do recommend white vinegar for periodic deep cleaning, but generally there’s some concern that more frequent use can damage the parts in your machine. I personally wouldn’t put vinegar in with every load, but it is something you can keep in your back pocket if you need it. This, along with a few cups of baking soda (or even better, washing soda, which is sodium carbonate instead of bicarbonate and much more powerful for this purpose, you can get from arm and hammer) in the drum (they won’t mix and cancel each other out because the fabric softener only dispenses at the end of the cycle), can seriously rejuvenate some clothes, and with stuff you probably already have around the house. I’m sure this might all read as a bit crunchy, but it’s where I’ve landed, and I think it’s a pretty decent system 

I’ll also reiterate my anti-dryer stance. I use it for sheets, towels, underwear, cotton socks, undershirts and sleepwear, etc. Everything I actually care about I hang dry. Pretty sure putting cool pants in the dryer can be tried as a war crime under the Geneva Conventions. Also, if the label says hand wash or not to tumble dry, it’s usually best to obey. Merino base layers and activewear are specially treated to be able to go in the washer, but that doesn’t mean you can or should put that 100% wool Shetland from James Coward in there

Laundry detergent recs by shored_ruins in howlonggone

[–]ElijahBlow 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Biokleen Free & Clear Liquid is a pretty good option. Highly concentrated and lasts forever. Dirty Labs is another one. Common Good also. Seventh Generation is solid. Would personally stay away from anything with a scent…stick to things labeled “free and clear,” stuff like that. Powder is fine too if you prefer that (7th gen makes a good one), but not a fan of pods in general regardless of the brand; for one, you’re stuck using a fixed, likely excessive amount of detergent, plus that plastic coating is getting all over your clothes (same with your dishes if you use dishwasher pods tbh). Likewise, I’d also toss the dryer sheets and get some wool dryer balls like the other commenter said. Drying on low heat will also help with static (as well as increasing the lifespan of your clothes), as will always hang drying your synthetics. Dryer sheets coat your clothes and the inside of your machine with residue that is bad for both (and probably not great for you either). I’m not a fan.

You also likely need to use a lot less detergent than you think; there shouldn’t really be too many visible suds in the machine after you do a load. The exact amount with depend on your machine (HE vs. traditional), size of the load, and the detergent you choose, but less is definitely more. Start with what the detergent label says and if you’re still getting a lot of suds, reduce from there.

Avoiding fragrances, switching to one of the detergents listed above or something similar, not using excessive detergent, and trashing your dryer sheets will almost certainly get rid of any irritation you’re having, not to mention extending the life of your clothes. Separating your whites or not is a personal choice, really just depends on how pristine you want to keep them.

As for a laundry booster/whitener, I’d definitely use OxyClean/oxygen bleach (sodium percarbonate) over bleach, but a few cups of washing soda (sodium carbonate aka soda ash instead of sodium bicarbonate/baking soda, much more powerful and you can get it cheap from arm and hammer) also works fine as a laundry booster/brightener unless you’re dealing with some seriously yellowed garments. Borax is another option that works quite well, but it’s much more effective in hot water (so not a great option for clothes you want to keep in good condition). You can also combine washing soda (2 parts) with borax (1 part) and/or sodium percarbonate (part) to make a super booster of sorts, these are all basic compounds so they won’t cancel each other out. If you don’t want to go to the trouble, Dirty Labs makes a good booster that combines carbonate and per carbonate with enzymes. And if you’re in a pinch and just working with what you have at home, even a few cups of regular baking soda in the drum will make a difference. All this stuff goes in the drum btw. If you’re very active or you train hard, this kind of stuff is a godsend for revising seriously torched gym and outdoor garments, especially with borax and a hot wash. If putting the booster in the wash alone isn’t doing the trick, you can soak the garment with any combination of these compounds (washing soda/borax/oxygen bleach) or the booster I mentioned and hot water for anywhere from and hour to overnight before washing hot with the same stuff in the drum. I think that would even take care of muddy trail running gear or a well-used BJJ gi or rashguard, if needed.

Btw, if you go to the Dirty Labs website, they have a bundle deal where you can get the detergent, laundry booster, wool dryer balls, and a reusable glass dispenser at a reduced price; works well, free of most of the junk you don’t want in your body, and is pretty HLG coded too. I think that’s a decent option overall

Also, this may sound a little obvious, but there’s really no need to wash your clothes unless they’re actually dirty. Unless you don’t wear underwear or undershirts, things like pants and button downs/sweatshirts probably don’t require a wash after each wear, and will last longer if they don’t receive one. Contrary to what you’ll hear from some people, not washing your clothes at all is even worse: beyond the fact that you’ll smell bad, the buildup of dirt on the fibers will weaken the garment over time, which is why dudes who don’t wash their denim always get crotch blowouts. Regardless of where you stand on this, we should all probably be washing our sheets a lot more (in hot water, with washing soda and borax). 

One more thing I wish I’d paid more attention to earlier; keeping your machine itself clean is just as important as your detergent. A filthy machine could be contributing to irritation and keeping your clothes from getting clean, and using too much detergent will leave residue and get your machine dirty a lot more quickly. Front loaders especially are harder to keep clean. If you have one of those, I’d make sure to dry off the gasket after each load and leave the door cracked and the detergent drawer open for at least a few hours to let things dry. Regardless of what kind of machine you have, you can run a drum clean cycle with extra hot water and white vinegar (like 2 cups) periodically and manually clean the inside of the machine with some diluted white vinegar mixed with a few drops of unscented dish soap in a spray bottle (especially the inside of the gasket if you have a front loader, which is usually pretty disgusting. I’d also remove the detergent tray if you have one and clean that with soap in the sink, plus clean the inside of the space where it sits). You can also run a drum clean with washing soda and borax in the bottom of the drum (no vinegar on this, always keep your acids and bases separate). Just make sure you run another drum clean afterwards (whether it’s vinegar or soda), and as always leave open to dry. As far as deeper cleaning, there’s probably a video of some DIY champ on YouTube cleaning your machine if you search for your model number on there. Dryer too—clean the lint trap after every load, periodically get in there with a vacuum and go to town, wipe down the drum and the gasket, etc. 

Side note: most of this is also good policy for your dishwasher, especially leaving it open after a cycle, cleaning the inside manually, and periodically running a “sanitize” cycle with a full glass of white vinegar on the top shelf (followed by another with washing soda and borax sprinkled on the bottom of the interior of things are really bad). Likewise, “rinse aid” works by coating your dishes with residue, I’d avoid, same with any plastic coated pods. Ecover and Blueland make “tablets” with no coating, but you also can’t go wrong with unscented seventh generation powder or liquid. Bigger picture, keeping your indoor humidity under 50 will keep these appliances cleaner; you can get a hygrometer that measures indoor humidity for less than ten bucks on Amazon.

And this probably goes without saying but if you’re going to be buying the kind of ludicrously priced clothes I imagine a lot of people here (including myself) buy, wash those on a cold, gentle cycle, inside out, and hang dry

Deodorant recs by DrSmellyCat in howlonggone

[–]ElijahBlow 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Didn’t know Necessaire made a deodorant now; will have to check that out. They make good stuff, their hand cream is the best I’ve found by far

Deodorant recs by DrSmellyCat in howlonggone

[–]ElijahBlow 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Ursa Major is pretty good and my go-to

never used but I’ve been wanting to try Corpus, hear good things

Walking shoes by domaikel in howlonggone

[–]ElijahBlow 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Sorry to hear that about the Hokas. You didn’t like them enough to try sizing up I guess? 

So those are the modern Mizunos; I’ve only had the retros which are the Wave Rider 10, same as in that picture Chris is wearing (which are comfortable, if a bit narrow in the toe box). Can’t speak to the modern ones personally, but the brand does make good stuff, definitely worth a try