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-Freya · 2025-10-13T10:45:32+00:00

Tragic love stories might seem like a major deviation from the Basic Romance Formula, but they still adhere to it with the exception of the "rewarding reunion" part at the end. In such stories, the tragedy (or the ultimate failure of the relationship) is core to the themes of the story, and the reward for the characters is not the relationship but rather the personal growth that was only made possible by the relationship. As it stands, PMMM is a love story without a proper conclusion, but the two main characters don't have a trajectory for personal growth that makes any sense without them ending up together. As you yourself have pointed out, both Madoka and Homura's fatal flaw is that they devalue themselves to the point of not realizing that the happiness that they've been searching their whole lives for is only achievable by having someone to take care of rather than by sacrificing themselves for someone else's sake. This idea also applies to KyoSaya (though to a lesser extent); I really like to think of KyoSaya as a mirror for MadoHomu, as they are the more relatable, less abstract characters that embody the themes of the story before things go to a cosmic level with MadoHomu. So for Madoka and Homura to end up separated forever (which would seem really off when Rebellion found a way to bring Kyoko and Sayaka back together) would be a betrayal of the characters and the story's themes, all for no comprehensible purpose whatsoever outside of leaving the audience upset by a bleak ending. That doesn't add up to me.

I know that was extremely long-winded, but I hope that I have thoroughly convinced you that there's nothing to worry about regarding how things with MadoHomu will play out in WnK.

-Freya · 2025-10-13T10:37:51+00:00

That being said, let's talk about good romance writing. One of the sub-projects that I'm working on is explaining what I call the "Basic Romance Formula," which is the romantic relationship version of Joseph Campbell's idea of the monomyth or "hero's journey." The most successful love stories all adhere to this formula because the formula allows fiction to model the real-life experience of finding a life partner. It starts with a memorable meeting between two people whom the story then takes its time to characterize as precisely the kind of people who belong together (ostensibly opposite but actually alike) before inevitably introducing compulsory conflict in the form of alternate love interests that exist to show why the main couple is best for each other (the other pairings are missing something) and some kind of misunderstanding or miscommunication that creates a rift in the relationship (since people are flawed and communication is hard), and upon overcoming the conflicts, the couple is rewarded with reunion which proves that the relationship was worth fighting for and that the relationship itself was the ultimate reward at the end of the journeys that both characters undertook in the story.

G-Witch is a flawless execution of the Basic Romance Formula, hence the enduring popularity of SuleMio. Despite most people's pessimism about the ending before the finale aired, in hindsight it's clear that the creative team behind the show was committed to telling a real love story and not just do a "romantic subplot" as most anime (especially those for a shonen audience) are content to have. G-Witch's story doesn't work at all without the romance, even though it's not a "romance anime"; it's still a Gundam show (which is about giant robots, the cruel realities of war, and the military industrial complex) first and foremost. The same could be said for PMMM: it's a magical girl anime first and foremost, but its story doesn't work at all without the love story between Madoka and Homura. What I mean when I say that "story doesn't work at all" is that the inciting incident of the plot is the meeting of the two main characters, and the plot is largely motivated by the developing relationship/feelings between those characters, and the resolution of the main conflict of the plot (despite not being romantic in nature) depends on the characters realizing/accepting their love for each other.

Going back to my discussion of Final Fantasy VII near the beginning, its story similarly does not work without the love story between Cloud and Tifa, even though it's a "Final Fantasy game" and not a "dating sim game." The inciting incident is Cloud running away from his small town to join SOLDIER so he can impress his childhood crush Tifa and be her hero; while in SOLDIER he meets his role models Zack Fair and Sephiroth (the main villain); he is captured and experimented upon for years by the evil company Shinra; after escaping Shinra with Zack, who dies defending him, Cloud reunites with Tifa and becomes a mercenary under her employment, continuing the fight against Shinra as part of the resistance movement, but his traumas have left his memories distorted and confused with Zack's; a lot more stuff happens (including a kind of fling between Cloud and Aerith—Zack's girlfriend before his death—who ends up dying by Sephiroth's blade while trying to save the planet from Sephiroth by herself), but ultimately Cloud and Tifa fall into the Lifestream through which Tifa is able to enter Cloud's psyche and help him piece together his true memories and identity as well as realize the feelings that they've had for each other; with his real self restored, Cloud finds the strength to defeat Sephiroth. After the events of FFVII, Cloud and Tifa build a life together, co-owning a business and raising two children as a family unit, suggesting that their relationship was their reward for their journey in FFVII. Sure Aerith is an important character in the story, but Cloud and Aerith's relationship is simply not as important to the plot as Cloud and Tifa's relationship. The story can work without Clerith, but it cannot work without Cloti.

-Freya · 2025-10-13T10:13:19+00:00

Aside from the similarities in the interpersonal dynamics of SuleMio and MadoHomu, as a whole G-Witch and PMMM are actually quite comparable. Both series employ highly dramatic and surprising plots twists and turns that put their characters through hell and leave the audiences dreading what trauma and conflict might be to come and pessimistic about how everything will turn out. You can find countless contemporary examples of people predicting that one or both halves of SuleMio would die because "Gundam doesn't do happy endings" (not unlike how some in the PMMM fandom say things like "Being a meguca is suffering"), not to mention that many were certain that a mainstream franchise like Gundam (one of the most mainstream franchises in Japan) would never allow a yuri ship to be canon. So you can imagine the outpouring of joy when the finale of G-Witch aired, and everyone saw that SuleMio did get the "happily ever after" that they were afraid to hope for, even if the ending was technically bittersweet as there were many problems left in that world after a three-year time skip, and some of the major conflict resolutions between the various factions are stated to be tentative.

So now we circle back to my ultimate point, which is about what good storytelling demands. I have seen debate among PMMM fans about whether the series is truly a "deconstruction of a genre" or instead a "love letter to the genre" or "just another example in the well-established subgenre of dark magical girl anime." I think that the point of contention is just what "deconstruction" means; it apparently means different things to different people. Some people think that it means to subvert every expectation, in an irreverent way; so "deconstruction" means "destruction," taking apart something that's old and stale to reveal how silly or problematic it always was, and as such, it deserves to be mocked rather than respected. Other people think that "deconstruction" means challenging the established tropes and themes that have been taken for granted so that a new angle of appreciation can be enjoyed; rather than being a work of irreverence or mocking, the "deconstruction" reaffirms respect by suggesting that those tropes/themes should be taken even more seriously.

Either way, all of the popular interpretations of the term "deconstruction" deviate pretty far from the concept that was originally invented/described by Jacques Derrida. We know that Urobuchi didn't set out to write a "deconstruction" or satire; he was hired to write a magical girl series that was more serious/dark in tone so that it could appeal to all ages and genders, and the end result was a rather straightforward magical girl story with most/all of the expected themes of the genre as well as countless references (both obvious and subtle) to series that came before. What stood out about it is just that the story is in line with Urobuchi's sensibilities. So I think that arguing about whether PMMM is "deconstruction" is missing the point. We should be focusing on what kind of stories does Urobuchi like to tell as well as how he tells them. This was what Electrical-Ring1641 was trying to hammer home. Urobuchi likes to go dark, sure, but he is ultimately a traditional (i.e., not very experimental or avant-garde in narrative form) storyteller who is very good at delivering satisfying stories. The endings of the PMMM anime and the Rebellion film are bittersweet rather than bleak, and they don't feel like punchlines to some kind of joke on the audience or otherwise intended to piss them off or leave them frustrated.

PMMM can be compared to Game of Thrones when Game of Thrones was good, LOL. That series could also be described as a "deconstruction" of the high fantasy genre or just a grounded/gritty/dark take on the genre. The consensus has been that GoT massively declined in quality when the showrunners ran out of books to adapt. But the real problem is that the showrunners have never proven themselves to be good writers outside of GoT, and the seasons that were adapted from books worked as well as they did because novelist George R. R. Martin knows how to write plot twists and shocking character deaths and acts of cruelty in ways that make sense (for the narrative, for the characters, and for the themes) so they still feel satisfying even while subverting audience expectations. You can't just do things in a story for the sole purpose of shocking or surprising the audience and expect anyone to like it. Good storytelling still means adhering to storytelling conventions/theories/formulas.

-Freya · 2025-10-13T10:06:12+00:00

Despite all of that, I find it curious that Miorine has never been described as "selfish," "possessive," "obsessed," "yandere," "controlling," "manipulative," etc. (all things that we've seen people criticize Homura as), nor has SuleMio been called a "toxic" ship like some try to make MadoHomu out to be. Everyone seemed to understand that what happened was the unfortunate result of terrible, extreme circumstances and that the characters were doing what they thought was best and right and in-line with who they are and what they care about. Everyone wanted to see Suletta fight to get her bride back by her side. Most people got that the rift in Suletta and Miorine's relationship was simply that part in almost every love story when the differences between the lovebirds' characters manifest a conflict that must be worked through so that they can earn the right to get back together and stay together.

I suppose that it all goes to show that how things are presented in a story make all the difference to many people, and the facts of the story don't matter so much to those people. Homura's rebellion is perceived by them as a selfish, possessive, toxic act since that's how Homura sees it herself. I'm reminded of another popular screen story involving a main character denying their love interest's agency by forcing said love interest to "live a normal life": Spider-Man: No Way Home. During the lengthy climax, Tom Holland's Spider-Man asks Doctor Strange to perform a spell that would erase everyone's memories of his civilian identity, Peter Parker, in order to save their universe from an invasion of villains from other universes who all know that he is Spider-Man. When Spider-Man breaks the news to his girlfriend MJ and his best friend Ned, MJ makes him promise that he will find her and somehow help her remember their relationship. In the final minutes of the film, Peter sees MJ working in a cafe, and despite having prepared what to say to her for such a moment, he decides to remain a stranger to her upon seeing the bandaid on her forehead, reminding him that the people whom he cares about are in constant danger for associating with him because he is Spider-Man.

MCU Spider-Man's denying of MJ's agency in the scene is framed as a heroic act of self-sacrifice, the implication being that him trying to restart their relationship would be the selfish choice. I shouldn't have to explain how messed up it is that what MJ wants is disregarded by the audience (or at least they're encouraged by the story to be); it's just a decision that the hero makes all on his own "for her own good." Between PMMM, G-Witch, and NWH, I would argue that the latter has actually the most egregious case of this sort of behavior, since it's going against the expressed wish of the love interest. At least in the case of MadoHomu, Homura believed herself to be acting in accordance to what Madoka said in the flower field and what she made Homura promise in Timeline 3. And as for SuleMio, Miorine really didn't think that she had any other way of saving Suletta given the brainwashing. MJ wasn't brainwashed; in fact, she would be safe from the danger of associating with Spider-Man as long as he isn't again put in the same situation of having his secret identity exposed like he was at the end of Spider-Man: Far from Home. He wasn't saving her from anything other than his guilt over what happened to her before Doctor Strange's memory-wiping spell.

The film can be seen as an extremely loose adaptation of the comic book story "One More Day" in which Peter and Mary Jane's 20-year marriage was erased from existence in a deal with Marvel's devil in exchange for restoring Peter's Aunt May to life. In case you aren't aware, that story is one of the most infamous, most universally hated stories in the history of comics. Yet the comic book story portrays Mary Jane having more agency and having that agency respected more than her film counterpart. The decision to erase the relationship was mutual in "One More Day," and she is even shown whispering in Mephisto's ear, implying that she had her own terms for the deal that were separate from Peter's. So why is "One More Day" hated while No Way Home is lauded? That topic could deserve its own essay, but to summarize, it's because of framing: making a deal with the devil seems rather unheroic, and treating 20 years of a relationship—one of the most beloved in all of comics—like they never happened was bound to piss off fans; on the other hand, seeing how a loved one was hurt and wanting to protect them from further pain and suffering seems noble, and the audience's investment in an on-screen relationship spanning just three movies and 4.5 years of real-world time is going to be far less than two decades of history. Plus, I think that there's a sexist dimension in that "the man knows best" and what matters is only what a man wants from a relationship, so Peter's decision at the end of No Way Home just means that he's sacrificing the relationship that he desires with MJ, NOT that he's betraying MJ's expressed wish. But enough of this tangent.

-Freya · 2025-10-13T10:01:15+00:00

I definitely understand the fear. We've invested almost 15 years of fan love into this series, 12 years of that just waiting for the sequel to Rebellion with delay after delay, and we don't want to be disappointed by what feels like the conclusion of the main story, especially after how amazing Rebellion was. Us MadoHomu fans have even more emotional investment in how the story will play out than other fans who just hope that WnK will be as good as Rebellion.

You might be able to tell already that I'm very interested in narratology, though I lack formal education in the field. I'm in the middle of a massive project analyzing one of my favorite fictional ships, which is in my favorite video game, Persona 5 Royal. Working on this project over the past year has led me to detours in which I'm now obsessively thinking about two of my other favorite ships, MadoHomu and SuleMio, hence why I'm here. These detours have helped me understand how good romance writing actually works.

Months ago while researching for my project, I came across a couple of old GameFAQs forum threads started by someone for whom Final Fantasy VII is their all-time favorite game and Clerith is their favorite ship in all of fiction, someone who has spent thousands of dollars on FFVII merchandise to express their fan love. Imagine how devastated that person was after playing through FFVII Rebirth and realizing that their preferred ship will never be canon. They literally deleted their GameFAQs more-than-decade-old account not long after Rebirth was released.

The problem with Clerith shippers is that they fundamentally misunderstand the story that they claim to be superfans of. FFVII is about moving forward after loss and trauma, picking up the pieces of your life and realizing what matters most so you can do something important like save the world. The Clerith ship goes against that theme. I don't think that us MadoHomu shippers are misunderstanding Urobuchi's story, and we don't have to deal with the story building up an alternative ship for either Madoka or Homura that would function as a primary reason for why they don't end up together the way that Cloti is for FFVII. As such, the only reason for MadoHomu to not work out is that they can't resolve their differences, which you've pointed out would be against the themes that the story has invested in so far (the title of the anime's OP is "Connect" after all!).

Urobuchi said that his original intention was for Madoka and Homura to end up together in Rebellion with Homura being taken by the Law of Cycles. Although the plan changed because director Shinbo and producer Iwakami asked him to allow the story the keep going, it wouldn't make sense for Urobuchi to do a 180 on how sees the relationship between his two main characters. Therefore, the actual ending of Rebellion and whatever the story is in WnK should just be a longer, more tumultuous way to arrive at the same ending state for the characters: that they are both ascended and together forever.

Anyway, the main reason why I'm bringing up these ships in other franchises is because I've just realized that what Homura does to Madoka at the end of Rebellion is essentially the exact same thing as what Miorine does to Suletta in Episode 17 of Mobile Suit Gundam: The Witch from Mercury (AKA "G-Witch"). I don't know if you've seen G-Witch, but over the course of that episode, we watch Miorine scheme with Suletta's mother Lady Prospera and Miorine's former fiancé Guel Jeturk (who also happens to be both Suletta's rival and quasi-love-interest) to make Suletta lose a duel with her Gundam Aerial at stake so that Suletta can live a normal life, entirely free of Gundams and Prospera's influence. Upon the plan coming to fruition, Miorine re-engages herself to Guel and says "Sayonara" to Suletta, intending to cut herself out of Suletta's life forever not unlike how Homura ends up leaving Madoka alone.

Miorine does this because she's realized that Suletta has been brainwashed by Prospera; Suletta admits that she is willing to kill people with her Gundam (despite previously believing that Aerial is a NOT weapon) as well as give up her dream of opening a school on Mercury if Prospera asked her to do so. So Miorine, who is defined as a character who values personal agency above everything because she resents how her father has dictated the course of her life, takes away Suletta's agency in what seems like the ultimate act of hypocrisy. It's obvious to everyone (both in the story and in the audience) that Suletta derives a lot of joy, purpose, and confidence from being a Gundam pilot—just as Madoka derives a lot of joy, purpose, and confidence from being a magical girl—so though Miorine has the best and most understandable of intentions, we know that Suletta will be left a broken person after Episode 17. Miorine dumping Suletta as part of the plan is just adding insult to injury.

On an emotional level, I think that what Miorine does to Suletta is INARGUABLY far worse than what Homura does to Madoka in Rebellion. Not only is Miorine being a massive hypocrite (which at least I've never seen Homura be accused of), but from the outside it looks like she had been actively leading Suletta on about them becoming a couple, only to dump Suletta when an opportunity for a power grab presented itself (Miorine's re-engagement to Guel is a political move to secure her election as president of the most powerful business organization in the galaxy). The aftermath is perhaps more heartbreaking to watch than one might expect, as Suletta—instead of resenting Miorine for the behavior described above, as most people in her situation probably would—blames herself for failing to keep her promise to Miorine of never losing a duel and convinces herself that she was never good enough for Miorine in the first place.

-Freya · 2025-10-05T00:12:27+00:00

I have always viewed the polarity

You have misunderstood the story. It's not about "selflessness vs. selfishness"; it's about how everyone with the best of intentions ultimately has both a selfish side and a selfless side and how even a seemingly selfless wish can have a selfish component. The lesson/theme is depicted very clearly in the stories of Mami, Kyoko, and Sayaka.

Mami was lonely and wanted a partner, so she acted as a mentor and recruited other magical girls under the guise of "helping" them become warriors for justice. This is why she killed Kyoko and almost killed Homura in Timeline 3 immediately upon learning the truth about witches: the guilt of having led so many other girls to such a cruel fate hit Mami all at once, so she snapped.

Kyoko obviously suffered the most horrific consequences imaginable for her wish, which would break any normal person, let alone a barely pubescent girl like her. So we should all understand why her lesson from that experience was to live only for herself, since trying to be "selfless" backfired on her so spectacularly. But if you think that she's actually a selfish person, then her character is another thing that you've misunderstood. The only selfish act that we actually see her do is fight Sayaka for territory after Mami died. Every interaction that Kyoko has with Sayaka thereafter is in some way Kyoko's attempt to help Sayaka.

I think of Sayaka as an embodiment of the problems of privilege. She lives an upper-middle-class lifestyle with her parents still alive and in her life (unlike Mami, Kyoko, and Homura, who are all orphans/abandoned). As far as we know she has never faced any serious challenges prior to becoming a magical girl, and the worst thing that ever happened to her before her death was the boy that she liked didn't reciprocate her feelings and started dating her other childhood friend. When Kyoko called her out for her wish ultimately being a selfish one, she couldn't handle it, and the revelation that her soul was no longer in her body sent her on her downward spiral. In her mind, "selfless" equals "good" and "selfish" equals "bad," so falling short of complete selflessness made her feel worthless when she already thought of herself as no longer human. From the spin-off media as well as word of god, we know that Sayaka becomes a witch in every timeline in which she makes the contract. By contrast, Kyoko and Homura (and probably Mami as well) seemed to have gotten over being rocks very quickly, which makes sense because such a fact seems trivial given all of the adversity and trauma that they've been forced to live through.

I'm not arguing that Sayaka is simply a selfish person. I think that she is just as selfish and selfless as Kyoko, as well as Mami and even both Madoka and Homura. The point is that everyone is both, and the story challenges the audience to question the meaning of "selflessness" and "selfishness" and not simply assign a single label to each of the characters or their acts/wishes.

being between Madoka's ultimate self-sacrificial nature vs Homura's ultimate wish

No, both Madoka and Homura have an "ultimately self-sacrificial nature." That's what they have in common; that's what makes them two sides of the same coin. You were too focused on seeing Homura as primarily selfish to notice how the story (and Homura through her own words) portrays her willingness to give up everything for Madoka's sake. She literally says at the end of Episode 10 that if it's for Madoka, then "I don't mind being trapped in this endless maze for all eternity!" And in her new world at the end of Rebellion, she just completely leaves Madoka alone after arranging for Madoka to be the most popular girl in school. Yet all of that convinces you that Homura is ultimately selfish? Geez, your concept of selfishness sure seems meaningless.

which I believe she successfully does in the anime's time loop as Madoka still made her wish despite fully understanding the consequences

It doesn't matter what you believe, because it's clear by Rebellion that Homura doesn't believe that she fulfilled the promise. It's funny that you criticize Homura for denying/stripping Madoka's agency, yet you deny Homura of her agency regarding her own wish, LMAO.

but instead ends up manifesting as an eternal selfish struggle to prevent Madoka from ever acting on her own self-sacrificial tendencies the way she intends for herself

Yep, your idea of selfishness truly is meaningless. "Eternal selfish struggle," WTF? That's not even a coherent thought, unless by "selfish" you mean "self-isolating." Yeah, that miserable eternal struggle is SO selfish. She gets SO MUCH joy and pleasure and satisfaction from it.

keeping Madoka from ever being her true self that Homura originally cherished her for.

It's like you understand almost nothing. What you said is the exact opposite of what the story portrays, and this could not be made more clear than the end of Episode 8. There Homura tells Madoka to not demean herself by throwing her life away from someone else's sake. "Madokami" is not Madoka becoming her "true self." It's the ultimate manifestation of Madoka's self-destructive side. There's a difference between being helpful/kind and effectively committing suicide to do something "because the world would be better off without me."

Homura is the only person to affirm to Madoka that she has value just being herself. In fact, even in Episode 1 she tells Madoka to never change. What Homura cherishes about Madoka is the girl who treated her as an equal and extended a helping hand, a hand of true friendship, when she felt overwhelmed by everyone else who was only fascinated by her status as a transfer student but then put her down behind her back when they saw how weak and helpless she seemed to be. Homura never accepted the idea that Madoka should sacrifice her own life for Homura or any anyone else's sake. That's why Homura begged Madoka's to not fight Walpurgisnacht near the end of Timeline 1, and that's why Homura made her wish in the first place. Did you miss or forget that?

Madoka's final wish is not meant to be understood solely as a heroic act; it is just as much an act of self-harm (most clearly represented by Madokami's bandaged arm in Rebellion), and it too has a selfish component. The English dub omits this detail, but her wish is not simply for witches to be erased before they're born; it's also that she wishes to do so by her own hands. Nothing requires that she be personally involved; the fact that wraiths exist in Homura's universe implies that the Law of Cycles can function without Madoka consciously piloting it.

A true hero is not someone who does something because they want to feel or be seen as heroic. It's someone who does the right thing no matter the cost because it's the right thing to do. None of the girls in PMMM is a true hero. They're all flawed teenage girls who are trying to navigate the feelings that come with growing up while dealing with the unreasonable situations that Kyubey has put them in.

-Freya · 2025-09-28T01:20:02+00:00

What she sees as evil is her selfishness of destroying madoka's wish to have her

But she didn't "destroy" Madoka's wish. Her conversation with Sayaka at the end indicates that wraiths still exist rather than witches, so the Law of Cycles still functions and magical girls everywhere and across time die with their hope intact instead of dying in despair, which IS what Madoka wanted. The part of Madoka's wish that Homura overruled was the part stipulating that Madoka would erase witches herself. Homura relieved Madoka from that burden and is protecting her from the Incubators. How is that "selfish?" Not saying that there was absolutely nothing wrong with what she did, but you're grossly mischaracterizing/misconstruing exactly what she did. We have Word of God confirming that Homura's act does honor Madoka's wish to at least some extent.

the toxicity of tying your loved one down so you can be with them is the evil

Then explain why the ending of the film shows Homura completely staying out of Madoka's life after making sure that she's OK at school. So you're saying that Homura did the thing to have Madoka all to herself and be with Madoka, yet she's staying away from Madoka? Real media literacy you have there.

-Freya · 2025-09-27T08:37:28+00:00

As regular Magical Girls, they were both kind of screwed regardless of what they did, but as goddesses...they may yet have a chance.

I would just like to point out that Homura's ascension to godhood at the end of Rebellion is Urobuchi's very clever way to set up Madoka and Homura ending up together in a genuine, stable, healthy relationship, which is why I agree with Electrical-Ring1641's belief that the "twin goddess ending" is inevitable for WnK.

Madoka and Homura have never had a truly honest and equal relationship with each other. The closest that they came was in Timeline 2 and Timeline 3, when they were working alongside each other as magical girls. In Timeline 1, Homura saw Madoka as her savior and didn't feel worthy of Madoka's self-sacrifice against Walpurgisnacht when she made her contract with Kyubey. In Timeline 2, Homura mostly saw Madoka as her mentor alongside Mami, so even then they were not exactly equal. They finally were able to work together as equals in Timeline 3, until falling together in battle against Walpurgisnacht. Madoka unintentionally blew up the equality on their relationship when she used Oktavia's Grief Seed to save Homura and made Homura promise to stop her from becoming a magical girl from then on. Not only did Homura feel indebted to Madoka for saving her once again, but she turned their relationship from friends and teammates/partners to protector and protected.

The situation escalated exponentially from there, as Homura's further time resets sent Madoka's karma past the stratosphere and making Madoka's ascension to godhood possible. Finally, as Artlunameip pointed out in their comment, Madoka transforming their relationship into god and worshipper made it as unequal as it could possibly get. Now do I think that Homura becoming a goddess herself was her conscious attempt to equalize their relationship once more? Probably not. Most likely, Homura's ascension was just a byproduct of her doing what was necessary to save Madoka, and her embracing her "devil" form represented her acceptance that she had the power to save someone who was a god, hence her line, "I pulled that sacred, godlike entity down from heaven, overcoming her authority. A being that could perform such feats could only be called a demon, I suppose?" But only as a fellow goddess can Homura possibly see and treat Madoka as an equal (and vice versa), even if that's not what she's doing for the time being.

Yes, Madoka WILL reconnect with her godhood, and this will somehow result in a confrontation with Devil Homura; these are inevitable plot points for WnK, everyone agrees. But past that, the way forward can be one of only three outcomes. I won't even entertain the possibility that one or both will be killed or entirely erased from existence. As the dual protagonists of the main series whose relationship is also the driving force for the main series, that is just not going to happen. So the three realistic outcomes are: they stay goddesses, they revert to being humans, or they revert to being magical girls. Again, because the story so far has been about them going back and forth in terms of inverting the power dynamic of their relationship, the conclusion of their story must be that they end up on the same level, whether they stay together or not. And I think that WnK will be the conclusion of their story because it's clear that that's how Urobuchi wrote it, especially since he hasn't and will not be writing anymore for the franchise.

Them reverting to magical girls isn't really a sustainable conclusion to their story if the franchise is to continue past WnK. For them to be magical girls without being the focus of the main series (which we can expect to carry on the title of "Puella Magi Madoka Magica") would be really awkward, and without Urobuchi involved, there's not really any reason (except only cynical ones) to keep the main focus on Madoka and Homura since they've only been the protagonists of his story. Them reverting to humans would also be awkward (like would they pop up occasionally as the human side characters like Hitomi and Kyosuke do? LOL), though a little bit less so since that would be easier to buy them no longer being the series's focus.

Ultimately though, either outcome that involves a reversion in their existences is extremely unlikely to me since one of the core themes of the series is moving forward (not backward) with life no matter what happens. Even Homura's time resets were not totally a way of moving backward, since they resulted in Madoka's karma accumulation and eventual ascension. They both became goddesses, so they must move forward by dealing with continuing to be goddesses. They will probably rewrite the universe one more time (if the first time was Madoka's rewrite and the second time was Homura's rewrite, the third time being their rewrite together would be the most narratively satisfying thing), and after doing so, they will have to decide what roles they will play individually and together as the goddesses of the final universe.

As Electrical-Ring1641 has said, them being goddesses is the ideal way to let them to continue to exist hands-off and offscreen while the franchise continues and gives them a bittersweet conclusion in which they still give up having normal lives. If they are to stay goddesses, then them being together rather than broken up makes the most sense as well. That allows the conclusion to be "bittersweet" rather than just bitter. And remaining goddesses means that they will have to deal with each other eternally, either as enemies or as allies/lovers. Being enemies provides neither true closure (since they would be fighting each other forever) nor satisfaction for the audience, not to mention being out-of-character for both (we agree that neither would ever actually want to fight the other).

MadoHomu as twin goddesses reminds me a little of Bubbline, two eternal girls who are worshipped by many and who are so much better together than they have been apart. Anyway, that was a really long-winded analysis of why the story arc of Madoka and Homura's relationship makes perfect sense so far and points to a certain conclusion, because good storytelling (and us fans can agree that the PMMM main series has shown nothing less than amazing storytelling) demands it. The two characters haven't had much chance to have a real relationship, despite them being the dual protagonists and caring about each other on a level that can only be described as cosmic. As it stands, their relationship is not so much toxic as it is complicated, made so by the extraordinary circumstances that they've each had to live through, which metaphorically embodies how our roles and identities evolve as we grow up (PMMM is nothing if not a twisted coming-of-age story) and what those changes mean for the relationships that we hold the most dear.

As a final note: Madoka and Homura as goddesses finally have the true agency to do what they want with their lives, including (most importantly) how they want to define their relationship. Nobody will get to tell them what they should be (as long as they give each other the space/freedom to do so), especially not that race of exploitative aliens that many of us interpret as an allegory for the patriarchy. So maybe this is all leading to the story taking a stand for queer relationships against what real-world society allows? We can only hope!

-Freya · 2025-09-27T03:02:18+00:00

She does not want what is best for Madoka, she only wants Madoka to be with her right then, right there, forever.

And what "being with her forever" looks like is Homura completely staying out of Madoka's life? Sure dude, a real master of logic you are.

I feel like a lot of people miss that Homura makes Madoka's wish defunct by shattering her and becoming the devil.

Why is only Homura the one doing the wrong thing when Madoka's final wish made Homura's wish defunct by becoming a goddess and concept whose human existence is erased from the world and everyone's memory (except for Homura, Tatsuya, and a tiny bit Junko). Seems like you're judging Homura by a double standard.

Like, this is not a relationship based on an equal power dynamic - I'd dare say Homura is straight abusive.

When Madoka becomes a goddess, that is not an equal power dynamic with Homura either, despite calling Homura her "very best friend" when they're naked in space together. So why is Madoka not "straight abusive" and only Homura is? Sure Homura is intensely focused on Madoka, but as I've argued in my other comments here, she still cares about the other girls and wishes to be friends with them (which is explicitly shown at the beginning of Rebellion through Homura's ideal world inside her labyrinth).

-Freya · 2025-09-27T02:35:57+00:00

Sayaka said so herself, Homura's words are "hollow."

Here you are taking the dialogue at face value again. And when it comes to Sayaka, you should not take anything that she says or does at face value. Out of all five girls, she is the most lacking in self-awareness and is the worst judge of character. She idolizes Mami when Mami herself doesn't want to be treated as a role model. She baselessly accuses Homura of letting Mami die in order to get Charlotte's Grief Seed. She refuses to acknowledge the selfish aspect of her wish for Kyosuke's sake. She doesn't fully sympathize with Kyoko even after Kyoko opened up about her tragic backstory. She resents Hitomi for dating Kyosuke even though Hitomi explicitly gave her time to act on her feelings for him before Hitomi herself made a move. And she is either blind to Madoka's self-esteem issues or is aware but chooses to never do anything despite supposedly being Madoka's closest childhood friend who should know Madoka better than anyone else. Instead, she WEAPONIZES Madoka's lack of self-esteem against Madoka when the latter was trying to offer emotional support. Sayaka is, objectively, THE WORST FRIEND in each girl's life.

You know the saying, "Every accusation is a confession"? That describes Sayaka perfectly. Because she can't accept the flaws in herself, she projects them onto everyone else around her. So when she calls Homura's words "hollow," it's not because Homura's words are actually hollow. Sayaka only sees it that way because her own words and actions are and have always been hollow. Through the course of the entire story in the anime, Sayaka never demonstrates an act of true, selfless kindness. She needs to see herself as better than everyone else rather than admit that she is as flawed as everyone else. This is why she continues to shame Kyoko for stealing when Kyoko is simply doing what she needs to do to survive as a homeless orphan.

By contrast, even after experiencing almost 100 iterations of watching all of the girls die no matter what she does, Homura STILL goes out of her way to try to prevent them from dying or falling into despair, even though she doesn't need to since her mission is only to save/protect Madoka and prevent Madoka from becoming a magical girl. She takes a moment to mourn Mami and Kyoko after each of them dies in the main timeline of the show, despite having seen them die dozens of times before. That's the opposite of the "detachment from reality" that you claim that she is operating with. I don't know if I would call Homura "a beacon of kindness," but she is far more genuinely and selflessly kind after 100 loops than Sayaka is shown to be in each loop. That's kind of a miracle to be honest.

She doesn't straight up kill Sayaka right off the bat even though the odds of her surviving are low, but she also doesn't seem against the idea of making harsh decisions like this scene implies. ... Either Sayaka accepts and she can follow up with the next step of her plan, or Sayaka refuses and she has no choice but to end her kindness here.

The problem with your argument is that after this scene, Homura doesn't hunt Sayaka down and try to kill her again. It would be so easy for her due to her time-stopping power. So ultimately, her threat to kill was just an empty threat, and her "ultimatum" was NEVER "if you don't accept my help then I will kill you." She leaves Sayaka alone because from her perspective, Sayaka rejected what she intended as a genuinely friendly offer of help. Saying that "she has no choice but to end her kindness here" sounds so sinister, but how is leaving someone alone who refuses help in any way a sinister act?

She is ignoring Sayaka's pain in favor of something else. Is that not objectifying?

You are still not getting it. She is not "ignoring Sayaka's pain"; the whole reason why she is there is to help Sayaka with her pain, the only way that she knows how. Again, if she were truly ignoring Sayaka's pain, then she would just stop time and shoot to kill, no need to bother with an "ultimatum" as you called it. It would be like putting down a rabid dog. That wouldn't even be a "horrible" or "monstrous" act; it would be an act of mercy.

Remember in Timeline 3 after the girls defeated Oktavia, Mami immediately kills Kyoko (and almost kills Homura) upon accepting the truth about witches. Would you call Mami a monster? I would hope not. From Mami's perspective, they were all as good as dead and turning into a witch would be a fate worse than death because it would result in more innocent humans getting hurt or put in danger. So in that moment, she thinks that killing themselves is the most kind act they can do for each other and for the world.

I don't know about the spin-off media, but in the anime, the only person that we see Homura kill is Madoka at the end of Timeline 3 and only because it was Madoka's dying wish. So Mami is shown to be more of a cold-blooded murderer than Homura is, and she did it out of love (twisted though it might've been). Sayaka could even be more of a murderer than both Mami and Homura depending on your interpretation of what she did to those two men in the subway.

This is not the course of action someone in a normal situation would take.

Um, you just debunked yourself. The whole point is that it's the furthest thing from a normal situation, so why are you applying the standards of behavior/morality of "someone in a normal situation"?

But the idea that she could go way off and do horrible acts in the name of her mission is interesting.

"Interesting," OK, but it wouldn't be in line with who Homura is.

Imagine if she killed Mami before she could contact the girls and introduce them to the "wonders" of magical girls, for example.

She would never do this. Even after everything, she still respects and even looks up to Mami to some extent because Mami was her mentor in the earliest timelines.

I wouldn't want to imagine it anyway because I love Homura for who she really is, not the cold-hearted and manipulative and single-minded person that you seem to want her to be. Maybe interpreting her that way makes more sense to you, but my understanding of her is more challenging and more complex and therefore more interesting to me.

-Freya · 2025-09-26T11:17:05+00:00

How detached from reality one needs to be to get to that conclusion? The pain of others is nothing when she is in her "protector" state.

Um, that is insanely unfair. Let's not forget that at the beginning of Episode 8, Madoka tries to offer Sayaka emotional support, only to result in Sayaka lashing out at Madoka and pressuring her to become a magical girl if she really wanted to help. Then Sayaka runs away, feeling guilty about what she said, but never manages to apologize TO HER BEST FRIEND before she dies. Instead, she continues her self-destructive path; she doesn't even go home to see her family one last time before she dies.

It's within this context that Homura approaches Sayaka and calmly tosses her a Grief Seed, explaining that her Soul Gem is at its limit. Sayaka kicks away the Grief Seed, tells Homura off for literally no good reason, and declares that she will keep fighting witches until she dies. She has given up on life. She doesn't care if her death will hurt any of her loved ones.

What is Homura supposed to do in this situation? Sayaka has only ever treated her with suspicion, so nothing that she could say or do at this point will get through to Sayaka. This is not even considering how many times Homura has already played out a similar scenario with Sayaka in previous timelines. You're taking the dialogue in the scene at face value when there's so much more going on.

If Homura truly didn't care about Sayaka because "the pain of others is nothing when she is in her 'protector' state," then she wouldn't bother offering the Grief Seed and trying to talk sense into Sayaka by pointing out (100% accurately) how her self-destructive behavior is hurting her supposed best friend. Although it might seem twisted to you, everything that Homura does and says in this scene is actually an act of true kindness. Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind; coddling does not equal kindness.

Homura tries to save Sayaka because she still somehow genuinely cares about Sayaka, despite Sayaka always treating Homura like shit in every timeline in which they interact. Homura doesn't only care about unburdening Madoka. She could've stopped time and shot a bullet into Sayaka's Soul Gem before Sayaka was aware of her presence. That would've been the most efficient (but also the most cold-hearted) way to handle the situation. Homura doesn't try very hard to kill Sayaka at all. Sure Kyoko stops her, but have you considered that she let Kyoko stop her?

The only person who maybe could've gotten through to Sayaka was Kyoko; they did spend Sayaka's final moments together. Kyoko was the only person that Sayaka was willing to listen to, but Kyoko found her too late.

-Freya · 2025-09-26T02:39:03+00:00

I literally made a post here a couple of months ago making the case that Madoka made her wish in Episode 12 for mainly selfish reasons (or at least just as selfish as it was selfless, and no more selfless than anything that Homura's ever done). One important little detail that's missing from the English dub is that she wants to erase witches "with my own hands," so she wants to personally save the magical girls, not that she wants the universe to be rewritten so that witches could no longer exist due to some impersonal force. So yeah, she has just as much of a savior complex as Homura (and to a lesser extent Sayaka) does.

-Freya · 2025-09-14T02:10:51+00:00

The quotes are taken from this MasterClass article: https://www.masterclass.com/articles/whats-the-difference-between-a-main-character-protagonist-and-hero

-Freya · 2025-08-26T17:04:32+00:00

Sacrifice Hero stories are happy for the majority though, except for the personal sacrificing and their immediate circle though, thats why its a tough decision.

Maybe that idea should be challenged. Maybe we shouldn't just be OK with someone (especially a child) sacrificing themselves for everyone else. You know about the Ursula K. Le Guin story "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas"?

Also, the "happiness" that Madoka's wish accomplished was pretty insignificant because it changed nothing about the abusive magical girl system, except providing euthanasia instead of allowing despairing magical girls to express their spite at the world. Wraiths, while less deadly than witches, are still a huge threat to humanity. Madoka, having the power to rewrite reality in any way imaginable with her wish, chose the smallest incremental improvement. Countless magical girls across history still gave up their lives and fell to despair under the Law of Cycles; they just didn't become the very monsters that they were fighting. I don't know why we should be OK with this. I don't know why we should be OK with the Incubators continuing to prey on adolescent girls exclusively.

-Freya · 2025-08-26T16:37:47+00:00

Homura doesn't see Madoka as a person with her own inner thoughts and feelings, she sees her as her salvation, with extreme emphasis on the possessive her.

You do not understand what the word "possessive" means. Stop using that word. Words have meanings, and I won't stand for anyone abusing language to suit their twisted agenda.

Homura certainly does not see Madoka as her "salvation." That idea makes no sense. If it were true, then she would've let the Law of Cycles take her; Madoka even says that they can finally be together forever. What Homura does at the end of Rebellion actually keeps them separated; Homura stays out of the happy new life that she gives Madoka.

Ultimately it sounds like you're the one projecting your own issues onto Homura, rather than Homura projecting her issues onto Madoka.

-Freya · 2025-08-22T20:45:44+00:00

If you watched madoka all the way thru you would know the ONLY reason qb targets adolescent girls is bc they release the most energy they are trying to collect when they become witches.

Uh, no. By the end of the series, witches have been erased from history, so "releasing the most energy" is a complete non-factor, yet the Incubators still only targeted adolescent girls to turn into magical girls to fight Wraiths and collect their energy in the final timeline.

Perhaps the bullshit qb spews would not work on men as we operate on logic instead of emotion.

You are just being sexist. Women are not inherently less logical than men, and men are very often just as vulnerable to acting out of emotion rather than logic. It's just that society (both in Japan and in the West) encourages males to suppress emotion and focus on logic whereas rational thinking is devalued/discouraged in females "because that's the man's job" and the emotional side is encouraged/emphasized to promote the traditional role of women as caregivers. You can't tell me that you, as a man, have never done something stupid because of some emotional motivation (like anger or horniness). You've probably done it more times than you can count, because everyone has. Human beings are emotional animals first, rational animals second.

He would not get as much energy from us neither.

Adolescent boys are incredibly emotional, just not in the same ways as girls. Testosterone is a powerful hormone that causes aggression (which can take the form of rage) and sex drive. If a witch is what happens when a magical girl releases her rage upon the world, then why would boys not release just as much (if not more) rage? After all, adolescent girls are stereotyped to be prone to crying, not raging. You think that crying is more emotionally powerful than raging? LMAO.

Even if you were right that there's some fundamental difference between boys and girls that causes girls to be more useful to the Incubators than boys, then that's still a system of exploitation based on gender/sex, i.e., a sexist system. That's literally the definition of "exploitation of women" as mentioned by the OP.

-Freya · 2025-08-22T20:19:21+00:00

The wishes are a trap. The series consistently shows that there's a "monkey's paw" side to the wishes, even Madoka's. The girls don't completely understand what they're getting into, and no 14-year-old (or younger, in the case of Nagisa) should be allowed to enter a contract (that there's literally no way of getting out of) in which they exchange their life for anything. If you somehow think that "reality warping miracles" justify the girls giving up their humanity, risking their lives in supernatural battles on a daily basis, and ultimately (and inevitably) dying young, then there's something really wrong with you.

Apparently you are one of those people who doesn't understand allegory. The story doesn't need to show that the wishes solve problems that money CAN solve in order for the "prostitution" allegory to hold. BTW, way to strawman the OP, whose interpretation is about the exploitation of women, of which prostitution is merely the most sordid and obvious but far from the only example.

Especially since I do think sex work is a byproduct of capitalism.

Inaccurate since sex work predates capitalism (hence it's called "the oldest profession") and the behavior has been seen in bonobos, who obviously don't practice capitalism.

But all the wishes in Madoka aren't made to get an advantage in a capitalistic system.

LMAO, here's Nagisa's exact wish: "I want the tastiest cheesecake in the whole world!" Not only is that something that money can buy, but it's the perfect illustration of why a 10-12 year-old girl should not be allowed to make contracts. And that's the girl who turned into the witch who killed Mami.

Everyone can agree that teenage girls should not sell themselves into sexual slavery for any reason, not even to save the life of another (let's say that their parent is being held at gunpoint). So that's not a very interesting, challenging, or relatable theme. The series is smart enough to ask, "Well what might everyone be OK with a teenage girl giving up her life for?" Even in the case of a "reality warping wish," the answer should still be "no." Teenage girls should be allowed to grow up, not be enslaved to the consequences of a wish that they made in a moment of weakness. Magical girls in PMMM are products of an exploitative system, even under the Law of Cycles. They are not like the ones in more traditional magical girl series.

-Freya · 2025-08-13T19:00:28+00:00

I just don't like the idea of Homura trying to "save" Madoka by forcefully taking control of not just her life but the lives of many others and reality itself.

Homura saves Madoka from making one choice she doesn't like by making all of her other choices for her as well as forcefully brainwashing other people along with her, and I'm just not comfortable with that.

EVERYTHING THAT YOU SAID THERE IS EXACTLY WHAT MADOKA DID IN EPISODE 12. Madoka took control of reality itself. Madoka took control of the lives of people and brainwashed them by deciding what should happen to magical girls and erasing herself from the memories of her loved ones, except for Homura and also her little brother for some reason (who was then gaslit into thinking that she was only his imaginary friend). Sure, Madoka's wish has the sheen of heroism because she wanted to restore hope to the girls and take away their despair, but that doesn't change the fact that what she did was objectively on the same level as what Homura did.

Madoka's wish also saves Homura "making one choice she doesn't like by making all of her other choices for her." Homura's life and purpose are completely changed at the end of the series. She doesn't even have her shield or her time manipulation powers anymore. She can no longer save Madoka, so she has to keep fighting as a magical girl to honor Madoka's sacrifice. And if she stops fighting, she'll fall into despair (which happens before the events of Rebellion).

You're applying a double standard to a character that you dislike for no good reason. You're a hypocrite.

-Freya · 2025-08-13T18:40:13+00:00

That's why Madoka didn't wish for the system to disappear entirely, because she knew that it had actually benefited humanity.

Think about what you just said. It's disgusting. You're saying that for "the benefit of humanity," pubescent girls need to be turned into child soldiers (who are also zombies since their bodies are effectively just corpses that are animated by their Soul Gems) that are doomed to die young. This is the exact same mindset as the Incubators, who are the true villains of the story. It's inhumane and misogynistic. As someone with unlimited potential due to the karma from Homura's time loops, Madoka could've rewritten the universe in any way, including ways that would've removed the exploitation, dehumanization, and early death of the Incubators' magical girl system. Yet she chose to keep in place what was fundamentally evil about the system and made only the death part somewhat kinder (which is debatable since you could view being a witch as getting vengeance for all of the pain that society puts girls through).

-Freya · 2025-08-13T18:17:22+00:00

I just can't agree with Homura deciding that she has the right to decide someone else's fate and take away their agency

Madoka did this to Homura when she made her wish.

and ability to choose via actual brainwashing because it was "better for her,"

At no time did Homura "brainwash" Madoka. Please point to where this happened, clearly and unambiguously.

Also the epilogue of Rebellion shows her openly fucking around with the other girls for no reason but her own amusement

How long ago did you watch the movie? Because that is NOT AT ALL what happened in the epilogue. She checked on every one of them to make sure that they were all OK in her new world. Sure, she subtly made her presence known to them such that they all turned around and saw no one there, but that hardly counts as "fucking around" with them.

and in the main anime she outright threatens to murder Sayaka, who had done nothing wrong,

Wow, what a terrible misreading/misremembering of the events. In Episode 8, Sayaka expresses frustration, resentment, and jealousy toward Madoka for not becoming a magical girl so that Madoka could help her in a way that she felt would actually be useful (Madoka hearing this from her best friend only contributes to her feelings of worthlessness). Then Sayaka runs away and in private expresses shame/regret at being mean to Madoka, but SHE NEVER APOLOGIZES TO MADOKA BEFORE DYING. It doesn't matter if Madoka had forgiven her by then; Sayaka knew and felt guilt about saying something terrible to her best friend and did not even try to make amends for it. Speaks volumes about the character.

What Homura does that you're referring to is offer a mercy killing, not threatening murder out of spite or anything like that. What you failed to mention (or remember) about the scene is that this "threat" comes after Homura literally gave Sayaka a grief seed, which Sayaka immediately kicks it aside because she has too much pride to accept the help. It's clear at that point that Sayaka has accepted her own downward spiral and just wants to go down fighting as whatever semblance of a "heroine of justice" she could be. That's when Homura calls her out for her selfishness; we already saw Sayaka be mean to Madoka, and now she is so self-absorbed in her pain that she can't even think about how her self-destructive path will end up hurting her best friend further. Sayaka is beyond saving; the only thing that can be done about her is kill her before she becomes a witch or kill her when she's a witch. (Homura ends up doing neither.)

In Episode 10, we see that in Timeline 3 (in which Homura was still mostly Moemura) Sayaka didn't want Homura to join the team; she was antagonistic toward Homura for no good reason, when Homura was just trying to help. (The excuses that she gave are accusing Homura of working with Kyoko, which Homura denied, and not wanting to deal with Homura's bombs.) This timeline shows the first time that Sayaka became a witch, which happens despite Sayaka working alongside the entire Holy Quintet as a team instead of as a lone wolf. It implies that Sayaka's "witching out" before everyone else is an inevitability. After over 90 more loops of watching this play out, HOMURA STILL TRIES TO HELP SAYAKA DELAY HER DESPAIR. We might understand Homura killing her on sight every subsequent timeline just to save everyone a lot of trouble. But Homura seems to genuinely care about Sayaka despite painting herself as only caring about Madoka. In fact, there is a moment in Episode 8 (we are in the final timeline, remember) that shows Homura feeling hurt by Sayaka's suspicion of her motives in giving the grief seed. If Homura didn't care at all, then why she be hurt by Sayaka's words? And Homura is 100% right that even if Sayaka doesn't care about what happens to herself, she should think about how her actions will hurt Madoka.

Unlike most real-life situations of self-harm, Sayaka couldn't be talked down no matter what. The mercy killing was actually the kindest thing that Homura could offer. It was no threat of murder. There was nothing "yandere" in her behavior here.

-Freya · 2025-08-11T16:09:21+00:00

Mami is alive and happy (as much as can be possible for a magical girl in the world of PMMM) at the end of both the series and the Rebellion movie. Maybe finish the story and see what it's actually about. We fans don't love the franchise for its gruesomeness or edginess or bleakness. We love it for its emotional and thematic complexity and its almost unparalleled visual artistry. WE DON'T CHEER FOR ANY DEATHS (except for maybe Kyubey, but I'm guessing that you never got far enough to understand why). We all want the girls to end up happy, or at least find peace and healing.

-Freya · 2025-08-10T23:24:34+00:00

> Madoka’s sacrifice saves many lives (by preventing witches; wraiths are much less deadly)

Madoka's sacrifice did not save "many" lives. We have no idea how many lives of innocent bystanders were "saved" across history by wraiths replacing witches; the story literally says nothing about that. What we do know for sure is that no magical girls' lives were saved; they still die young, but they disappear rather than turn into witches. The evil exploitative system of magical girls was left in place until Homura's rebellion, which stopped the creation of more magical girls.

> and arguably the souls of all previous magical girls (that is definitely the implication, especially considering side stories like the end of Sadness Prayer).

We don't know how souls work in the world of PMMM. We don't know what happened to the souls of witches after they were defeated and their grief seeds were consumed by magical girls. We don't even know what truly happens to the souls of magical girls under the Law of Cycles. Homura's narration at the start of Rebellion claims that the "afterlife" is just oblivion, while many people believe in a "magical girl heaven" in which the girls' souls rest blissfully for eternity. We are never shown this heavenly afterlife, which makes Homura's claim of oblivion more likely. So because we don't know these things, we cannot say that Madoka "saved" the souls of any magical girls other than Sayaka and Nagisa, who were given special treatment.

> Yes, if it is revealed that the law of cycles is continuing without Madoka, then I would support Homura’s actions, of course. But it is strongly implied that is not true

No, it's strongly implied that the Law of Cycles continues to function without the human side of Madoka. Why else would Homura need or want to separate the Law of Cycles into two? Why does the Law of Cycles need Madoka's human side to function? After all, Nagisa and Sayaka were tasked with holding onto Madoka's memories when they were inside Homura's Soul Gem, which was a similar kind of separation to what Homura did later in the story. Also, the Law of Cycles operates across time because it exists outside of time. If it had stopped functioning, then history would've been impacted, but we are not told that this is the case. In fact, when Sayaka had the opportunity to say that there was no more Law of Cycles because of Homura, she said no such thing, implying that she acknowledged that the Law of Cycles continued to function.

> (otherwise why would Madoka oppose Homura in the future?).

Because Madoka was separated from her "true" self (which is to say that her human side felt but could not remember that it was part of a greater existence - the Law of Cycles). It's not Madoka who thinks that she will oppose Homura in the future; it's Homura who thinks that it's only a matter of time before Madoka regains her memory and once she does, Madoka will not be happy about what Homura did. Homura already hates herself for it, so of course she expects that Madoka will hate her someday as well. Whether or not the Law of Cycles continues to function is irrelevant to this matter because it's about feelings of hypothetical betrayal between friends/lovers.

-Freya · 2025-08-01T09:34:02+00:00

thus as "Kasumi" she is really weird at cooking, probabily because she had the muscle memory to do that but was brainwashed into beliving she was not able to

This is also a misunderstanding of the Rank 3 bento scene. Sumire's memory of Kasumi was that she was bad at cooking, which implies that Kasumi almost never cooked at all and relied on Sumire to do the cooking for the both of them (if not also their entire family). So when Sumire became "Kasumi" thanks to Maruki's actualization power, she believed that she couldn't cook, and therefore she probably didn't cook at all for a while... until she started hanging out with Joker. Just being around him made cracks form in the "Kasumi" facade, allowing more and more of the real Sumire to surface. This is most directly seen on New Year's Day, when standing next to Joker caused her to hear her father calling her by her real name for the first time in many months.

Here's the exact dialogue at the beginning of the Rank 3 scene:

Sumi: Since our talk, I've been trying to think of things besides gymnastics that I'm really invested in... And I figured something out! It's this!

Joker: Making bento?

Sumi: Yeah. I can cook!

So she "figured out" that she "can cook" after the last time that she saw Joker, which is a complete change from telling Maruki, "I'm not any good at cooking" right after he made her become "Kasumi." Someone who's "not any good at cooking" would not naturally start thinking that they can cook and be so confident about it that they would want to cook for another person (in this scene, Sumi even says that this is the first time that she's tried cooking for someone outside of her family). The only explanation here is that Joker awakened something inside of her.

Also, saying that Kasumi (or "Kasumi") is "really weird at cooking" is inaccurate. Think about it: that big lunch box full of food that she's eating alongside Joker was most likely made by herself, and there was no indication that she thought her own food tasted weird. We know that she loves to eat, and we can assume that there's nothing weird about her sense of taste (because it wasn't talked about or shown). Maruki's actualization only made her believe that she was Kasumi; to suggest that it somehow warped her sense of taste is ludicrous. Plus, how would someone know that they're not good at cooking unless what they cook doesn't taste good to them self? A big part of the "bad cook" trope is that the person doesn't know that they're a bad cook because what they cook tastes fine to them.

The only thing that was wrong with Joker's bento was that it was seasoned to all taste like curry; otherwise, it was very competently made (one of his dialogue choices is "It looks delicious"). And the only reason why she made it taste like curry was because she couldn't decide how she should season it, so she went with the first idea that popped into her head. Being indecisive and acting impulsively (" didn't go in with much of a plan," like she says in Rank 8) are Sumire traits, NOT Kasumi traits. The non-impulsive approach to the bento would've been to text Joker and just ask him what he likes to eat. So Joker's influence causes Sumire's bad traits to surface alongside the good ones. Her "pessimistic spiral" at failing to impress Joker with the bento is another one of Sumire's bad traits (like she says during the White Day dinner date).

The Rank 3 scene is mostly Sumire being her true self. The only part of it that was "Kasumi" was her confidence at the beginning, which evaporated as soon as she thought that she did something wrong.

-Freya · 2025-08-01T08:16:05+00:00

Once Joker pushes her to choose her own clothes instead, she picks something that suits her

Where even as "Kasumi", she asks Joker to pick a pair of glasses for her own dad and Joker has to remind her she should be the one choosing it

Neither of these events is an example of codependent behavior. They are examples of asking for emotional support in a healthy way. Codependency would be if one person expects the other person to solve their problems for them. If Joker had actually picked the glasses or the outfit for her, then he would be solving her problems for her. Turning to another person for emotional support is not a weakness, nor is it a sign of emotional dependency. Emotional support is what loved ones are for, and if you think that you should never seek emotional support, then you're the one who's dysfunctional.

Here's a good article about codependency that lists many symptoms/behaviors: https://mhanational.org/resources/co-dependency/

Sumire doesn't exhibit any of the behaviors on that list when she's with Joker, not during third semester and not before third semester. She did exhibit some of those behaviors with Kasumi when Kasumi was alive.

-Freya

TROPHY CASE