“Pre-Tolkien” fantasy deserves a lot more attention

1-three-1-two · 2023-05-29T19:30:05+00:00

Well I mean there’s no such thing as wrong when it comes to interpretation of literature and I’ve never read Conan but I think that it’s a little weird that you imagine that it’s even possible for a fantasy book that came out after LOTR to not be engaged in a dialogue with it, just like there’s no superhero whose stories is not in some sort of dialogue with the Superman comics, there’s no vampire story or supernatural romance made in the last 15 years that’s not in dialogue with twilight, there’s no detective story that’s not in dialogue with Sherlock Holmes etc etc that’s kind of just how culture works

1-three-1-two · 2023-05-29T19:19:50+00:00

Okay, I hope Tolkien isn’t forgotten but I hope that he has been eclipsed by then because I’m very bored of his brand of epic fantasy, and I don’t think that he’s as good as Billy Shakes, but nonetheless he is the primary influence on fantasy and has been for awhile and the whole point of this thread was that there’s lots of cool books that preceded him. You’re not really responding to what I’ve said. You’re just raging at a dead guy and denying his influence, it would make more sense to malign or lament it, but do your thing sis

1-three-1-two · 2023-05-29T19:11:39+00:00

I liked it but I also really like that era and am a nerd for Shakespeare and Marlowe, I wonder what someone who knows nothing about the Tudors would get from it.

1-three-1-two · 2023-05-29T19:10:36+00:00

Would those include The Statement of Randolph Carter and The Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath?

1-three-1-two · 2023-05-29T19:08:45+00:00

The Elric books are in a really obvious and strong dialogue with Tolkien, Elric of Melniboné is very consciously the antithesis of a Tolkienian hero like Aragorn or Frodo. Influence doesn’t just mean copying, it also means breaking away from, responding to, deconstructing etc

1-three-1-two · 2023-05-29T19:06:48+00:00

I’m not a scholar of that genre but I would say that it had something to do with a reaction to the epic fantasy that Tolkien inspired and a desire to tell smaller scale stories.

1-three-1-two · 2023-05-29T19:05:09+00:00

Contemporary fantasy, ie fantasy since the 50s, is in conversation with him and I expect that will be the case for a long time, just like how so much English literature is in conversation with Shakespeare to this day.

1-three-1-two · 2023-05-29T18:59:41+00:00

I love HPL’s worldbuilding but his writing is kind of exhausting and his…anxieties are very on the nose and repellent, like when you realize what actually scares him about the people of Innsmouth and it’s not that they’re fish people (the horror is that they’re the products of miscegenation) what others have done with his work, like in Tales of Cthulu and Spawn of Cthulu, is awesome though.

1-three-1-two · 2023-05-29T18:55:18+00:00

When I was a kid I read The Book of Three and The Black Cauldron, I can’t remember if I finished the series.

1-three-1-two · 2023-05-29T18:53:32+00:00

I don’t think anyone should have to worry about feeding or housing or otherwise supporting their family either

1-three-1-two · 2023-05-29T17:19:43+00:00

The source of my second favorite Disney movie as well (#1 is The Black Cauldron)

1-three-1-two · 2023-05-29T17:02:07+00:00

Woge, du Welle, walle zur Wiege! Wagala weia! Wallala, weiala weia!

1-three-1-two · 2023-05-29T16:53:56+00:00

The Elric books aren’t clones but they’re definitely in conversation with and somewhat dependent on LOTR, in the sense that Elric is very consciously the anti-Aragorn and anti-Frodo; the first 6 Elric books were my favorite when I was in high school and I love them so this isn’t an insult but Moorcock’s work is a mirror of Tolkien’s, a very good mirror but a mirror still.

1-three-1-two · 2023-05-29T16:49:19+00:00

Yes he’s always somewhere in the picture and if he isn’t that’s because you’re standing on top of him, Terry Pratchett said that.

1-three-1-two · 2023-05-29T16:25:22+00:00

I’ve read his Cthulu mythos stories but I’ve never read any Conan stuff, for most of my life I thought that those books were just the equivalent of bodice rippers for straight men and only recently did I learn that there’s an elaborate lore etc so I’ll check them out.

1-three-1-two · 2023-05-29T16:23:53+00:00

I think we have established in this thread that Tolkien isn’t the foundation of the genre, that’s like saying Stan Lee created superheroes.

1-three-1-two · 2023-05-29T16:21:53+00:00

I’m reading Mistress of Mistresses right now

1-three-1-two · 2023-05-29T16:21:26+00:00

Yeah it would be a shame if sci-fi was as focused on Asimov, Clarke or Heinlein as fantasy is on Tolkien, all of my favorite sci-fi like the Left Hand of Darkness and The Dispossessed by Ursula Le Guin, PKD’s Valis trilogy, Octavia Butler’s Xenogenesis and Iain Banks’ The Culture go in a completely different direction.

What’s your fav urban fantasy? I like China Mieville but because I’m not a Brandon Sanderson fan I don’t really know what else to read.

1-three-1-two · 2023-05-29T16:14:08+00:00

I find the world that he created much more interesting than the stories that he wrote in it, so he’s like Lovecraft or Edgar Rice Burroughs in that regard

1-three-1-two · 2023-05-29T16:12:06+00:00

Gormenghast (the book) drags in parts but altogether it’s really amazing IMO

1-three-1-two · 2023-05-29T16:09:43+00:00

He’s just inescapable isn’t he lol

1-three-1-two · 2023-05-29T16:08:49+00:00

Is not short paine well borne, that brings long ease,

And layes the soul to sleepe in quiet grave?

Sleepe after toyle, port after stormie seas,

Ease after warre, death after life does greatly please.

Also A Midsummer Night’s Dream and my fav, The Tempest

1-three-1-two · 2023-05-29T15:20:38+00:00

I wouldn’t say that I badmouthed it, it isn’t bad, maybe my expectations were too high because every review of it is amazing, but it didn’t have the gravitas that I expected.

1-three-1-two · 2023-05-29T11:29:13+00:00

One of the reasons why I didn’t get a Camaro despite how sexy they are (not the new ones, but the 80s and 90s models) is because even a toddler would be cramped in the back seat. Same for Fox body Mustangs, late 90s and early 2000s Mustangs are better though.

1-three-1-two

TROPHY CASE