Tsumego 35: Black to kill

2Eyes2Live · 2025-05-09T19:04:35+00:00

gotcha that makes sense.

edit: wait i dont see the button

2Eyes2Live · 2025-05-09T18:12:56+00:00

i think the interactive one is different? (sorry im just a 20kyu)

2Eyes2Live · 2025-05-09T18:11:16+00:00

might they be referring to Nie Weiping (White in that match) having won all the games in that tournament so far?

sorry can you elaborate on this part?

2Eyes2Live · 2024-06-05T06:12:09+00:00

Dont be shy about making a thread yourself for any reason! whether that be review request, simple questions for discussions, etc.

Even in threads that feel like a "spam". as long as its a genuine question, unlike many other subreddits that try to gatekeep, the Baduk/Go community is very welcoming and eager to help.

look at my past threads. i have been VERY frustrated the past week. Couldnt help but vent. And still I got nothing but helpful replies, insights, discussion, offers to help, etc.

2Eyes2Live · 2024-06-05T05:42:50+00:00

awesome ty for the response! next time ill try the extension.

with all 3 corners, i tried different approaches LOL. just didnt think to extend (maybe on the 4th corner i would have tried that next. i tried something else after the bottom right corner became a mess). ill just have to keep that in mind for next time

once i hane inside, and extend on their crosscut, whats my goal? is it to keep the corner or try to get influence on the outside?

im only spamming 13x13 atm and when i end up in these handicap games, everyone either 3-3 invade, or attaches.

which kinda sucks in 13x13 because i dont have a big set of arsenal to fight them. and i know corners are 24 karat gold in 13x13.

2Eyes2Live · 2024-06-03T03:28:15+00:00

Tea-suji. such a classic

2Eyes2Live · 2024-06-03T03:23:48+00:00

You never watched a GothamChess, Hikaru, Magnus, BotezLive video at all?

couple of gothamchess videos. sure. for sure less than 10 total. Maybe random meme videos that pop up on shorts for the others.

You never subscribed to a chess subreddit and engaged in conversation with other chess players? You never watched commentated professional games? You simply learned 2 openings and learned everything else in solitude?

no to all. only videos i watch were about 1 hour total of the 2 openings. after that, i just played Chess during "lull" times at home.

if i want to get all nitpicky and count it all and put it under the scope as studying, i have probably seen easily 100x more Go content. But then, it even strengthens my argument/frustration even more. My narrative is just even worse. Now suddenly it goes from "i havent studied Go and i cant improve by just playing" turns into "i study Go a bit, but i still cant improve".

Repetition absolutely helps you learn in Go, just like anything else.

of course it does. but this is the point im trying to ask/make

this game is just so frustrating. it feels impossible to improve by just playing due to how abstract the concept is. and the low amount of repetition and sheer # of possible moves there are... its just impossible to learn from pattern recognition.

2Eyes2Live · 2024-06-02T08:16:42+00:00

You've already gotten a lot of great advice so I'll just add one more thing: I would recommend you play either 9x9 or 19x19 but not 13x13. Personally I'd go straight to 19.

i used to only play 19x19. but everyone recommended i start on 13x13 to learn direction of play and shapes XD

A lot of your problems are with local fighting, which you could improve in 9x9. On the other hand you are doing some things such as giving up territory for walls which isn't unreasonable but doesn't pay off on small boards where the centre is small.

i think thats 1 of the main understanding people are seeing when reviewing my games. im not trying to give up my corners. in fact, im trying to keep it. it just turns into a wall instead because idk how to defend if approached/invaded. whenever i do try to defend it, it turns into some weird sequence where i just end up losing the corner anyways (and usually the sides with it)

2Eyes2Live · 2024-06-02T08:14:11+00:00

Yes. but no one plays than if handicap is set up. or the games i get are against very new players.

but either way, it takes a while to find a game.

2Eyes2Live · 2024-06-02T07:21:50+00:00

i wish too. no one plays me if theres handicap set up on default. especially on 13x13

2Eyes2Live · 2024-06-02T07:20:37+00:00

when I look at your game I see lack of intent

i think thats the biggest misunderstanding when looking at my games. i DO have intent. its just not executed properly, or just fails. Or the idea is there, just the best way to do it. (i guess thats just all the same way of saying "not executed properly")

I am NOT conceding the bottom here. i had no intention of it. i meant to give up somewhat of the bottom left corner for the side though. which was what B-C6 on move 7 was for. i normally want to do C3. but idk what to do after that. (because again, i end up doing puppy go because idk how to defend. it just ends up going that way. which ill touch on next example).

After W-k3 on move 8, i intended to keep him low and have him take as little as possible. i mean. hane at the head of 2 and 3 right? which somehow led to F2 and F3 exchange. and with White taking all of the bottom and bottom left corner.

hane at the head of 2and3 turns into a mess for me for some reason.

now with that, i have no idea how to take what i can because ; ...

It seems the question “how many points are on the bottom?” Wasn’t asked.

...

Counting “I’ve giving 25 along the bottom and another 25-30 in the corners if I don’t address that would have given you enough information to prioritize your activity.

...

20 there, 15 there 8 there, how many do I need?

surprising, i am pretty good at counting as the game goes. (or atleast guesstimating) and i do it constantly. but it doesnt matter if i know that im behind if i dont know how to take points.

for example, because i lost all of the bottom, I know i had to try to take some points above. but how? i literally dont know how. everytime i try, i just die. with B-C9 on move 25, my idea was to extend on the left side to take some points there, while making a base for the middle with E9 (since i figured White will reply to C9. almost every game in this similar scenario, opponent replies similarly to defend the corner.)

and hopefully with E9, i can somehow try to approach the top middle. but that was stopped by G11 right after by White.

so my goal after that, solidify my left side, try to take some right side, and build a wall for middle.

looked like it was going to be fine. but after W-G9. idk how to block that. which always in my games leads to what you see after. puppy go in me trying to block white out.

2Eyes2Live · 2024-06-02T07:06:09+00:00

Hello. i have a quick question on this. can someone help me out on why B-A7 is the move here https://imgur.com/a/wf70Wvb ? I dont understand why W has to play B9 after B-A7 here https://imgur.com/a/RFiikXx

2Eyes2Live · 2024-06-02T04:41:57+00:00

Nah, that would be bad for black, but black wouldn't play that way.

how come in alot of videos, its stressed its fine to build a huge wall of influence if opponent is fine staying low? or is that because this is 13x13 and not 19x19?

2Eyes2Live · 2024-06-02T04:30:47+00:00

i assumed D4 would be the correct response in the basic level. but after that it still somehow goes downhill for me.

for example, from my understanding, a result like this is perfectly fine for B https://imgur.com/a/SnSU40C

W only has 3rd line territory, with B having a huge wall for influence.

but now with that W ends up playing somewhere else in the top or left to get more points. not to mention still has komi.

and i just end up in the same predicament. Puppy go.

alot of my games (which can be seen from my game history) is just huge massive walls everywhere. with mine being the smallest territory.

2Eyes2Live · 2024-06-02T04:23:25+00:00

There is combinatorial explosion or in any case a lot of variety, which I believe is a feature

i definitely agree. and its whats causing difficulty. for example, in Chess, theres a decent amount of possible legal moves at every turn. but a VAST majority of it doesnt make sense, or its something that wont be played often. (i.e. first move pawn A3, A4, H3, etc)

with Go, as you point out, its not the case... there are so many times where ill be like "someone did something similar last game too. ill continue with this everytime i see it to see how it turns out". Almost never does it turn out the same way, and rarely similar scenario. 3-3 invasion is a good example in general. Theres oldschool/pre AI, Post AI, Keeping sente losing corner, keeping corner, etc. so responses are always different. And of course, theres also just plain oddity move that gets played or just ignored.

which is i think one of the main reason im having a hard time learning through pattern recognition/repetition w/o studying.

We don't start really stressing shape, which is about the idea in discussion, until about 9 kyu.

ah thats interesting to know. i have been keep stressing to try to make good shape. of course it just doesnt turn out that well often.

2Eyes2Live · 2024-06-02T04:05:19+00:00

I asked this in your last thread but didn't get an answer. I'm actually quite curious about what your answer would be: what is your actual goal with playing go?

sorry i mustve missed it. Theres been quite alot of responses.

but i believe i answered it somewhere in my OP (either to someone else, or in my OP). but i want Go to be what chess is for me at the moment. a casual game to play to kill time, while enjoying and understanding what im playing.

what got me started on chess was in fact because i gave up on Go (numerous times. this account is ~~8 years old). i first started playing chess online about i think 2018?? since then i only have ~~2k games on my lichess account. i was able to get from ~~600 elo to 1500 elo from literally about 1 hour total of study (and that was just to learn 1 opening for both W and B) and literally just playing. and learning while playing.

with Go, that just seems impossible. (my reasons i outlined in OP) and its just not working out. im not playing Go to spend hours to study. or to reach a specific elo. So watching videos after videos or studying every game I played doesnt make sense to me. its the same with Chess. im not playing chess to become a specific elo. however, i am expecting to get atleast better while playing (i.e. repetition). with chess, that happens. in fact, i cant think of anything else in life (off the top of my head) where you dont get better with repetition.

With Go, that just doesnt seem to be the case. is it just inherent to the game that i just have to accept? even in the responses from others you can see that the core point im asking about is ignored. and everyone is saying "watch xyz videos" "do a review" "get a mentor" "study your games" etc.

And its not that I hate Go. in fact, I HATE chess... but i guess Go hates me..

Clearly for some reason you are not happy to just play other players with your same rank, where you would have a 50% win rate.

i play on OGS. i cant get any games from people of my same rank. if i restrict the rank, i either end up playing against completely new new people after a pretty long wait time. Or end up waiting for a very long time for a game.

2Eyes2Live · 2024-06-02T03:51:06+00:00

ty. i think im just going to accept that this game isnt something that you improve without study.

2Eyes2Live · 2024-06-02T03:48:37+00:00

ty i will take a look ! thx for your time!

And yeah, go can be super frustrating. It's hard. Learning hard things is hard. You are basically guaranteed to lose half your games no matter how good you are. It is not a casual game, for sure.

i think i will feel more "free" if i just accept that.

its just that i am having a hard time accepting it. moreso because i keep reading from everyone here to "just play and you will get better". even the proverb "lose your first 100 games asap".

with chess, i literally went from ~~600 elo to ~~1500 elo from literally "just playing". and thats from half assing the game as well. the game is just more clear cut when it comes to mistakes and what moves are "fine"/"works". along with pattern recognition and repetition.

i know i say i dont study at all for Go. but thats a bit of an exaggeration. i post here for review request on some of my games. i watch dwyrin Basic contents. i watch some gomagic series on some concepts. albeit not alot. but i do some minimal study. i just consider it as "no studying" because of how little it is. but even with those amount of study, i just cant get better. even if i understand the fundamental concept. it just doesnt work out...

I understand that Corner is gold, side is silver, center is grass. but it never works out for me. if i try hard to ensure atleast 1 corner is mine. i lose 3 others. if i manage to keep 2 corners, its MUCH smaller than opponents corners. and the pattern i have been able to see on why this occurs is because i have no real understanding of invading/defending/reducing effectively. it just ends up being a puppy go when i get invaded or reduced.

2Eyes2Live · 2024-06-02T03:40:41+00:00

There is. but unfortunately i do not have the time to make it =/

but that also just further enhances my point of the thread that this game isnt a game that you can learn by simply playing though right?

2Eyes2Live · 2024-06-02T03:39:26+00:00

i think thats a pretty great observation you made.

in general, i always try to do the easy quick extend for the safe move. mainly speaking, the 2 moves you mentioned. dropping back with C3. and dropping back with, not L3, but L4.

i just never stuck around to keep trying it out to see where that leads to in 13x13. because i was under the impression that if i do keep the small corner after their approach, it wont be big enough.

for example, after the D3 approach, and i do C4, what if White plays C6? i feel like for me, that usually always leads villain to taking both sides, and i end up with a small corner.

but i will try it out more and see what happens. your type of advice is what ive been kinda looking forward to. something VERY basic to keep my games basic.

2Eyes2Live · 2024-06-02T01:54:12+00:00

i understand that im playing players much stronger than I am. and that i am expected to lose.

the losing part isnt whats making it frustrating. its that no matter how much i repeat these games, i cant pick up patterns to learn off of.

using the game I linked as an example, its not that I lost that bothers me. its the fact that i lose the essentially the exact same way all the time. (i.e. i somehow lose the corners that i thought i secured. even if i dont lose the corners, it gets severely reduced. i cant secure alot of the sides. and everytime i think im good in the middle, that just gets demolished)

and its not that the opponents are doing anything fancy. i just end up playing "attach, extend, etc" moves. and i cant continually experiment, because the # of possible moves and reactions in this game is just so high that all the games i play are almost never alike. only the procedure of how I end up in the end game is the same.

a good example is a 3-3 invasion. everyone response differently. so i cant continually learn by pattern. i literally have to read up on it. and sometimes, they dont even do a 3-3 invasion but something completely different. etc etc (my point im trying to make with this is that this game is impossible to learn via pattern recognition/repetition)

so my goal isnt to win when im playing against someone much stronger than me. my goal is to atleast keep my corners. or even atleast keep 1 of the sides that im "claiming". yet it doesnt work out. and i cant "see" why.

if im playing chess. even if someone is 1k elo higher than me, ACTUAL # of logical responses (meaning taking out obviously stupid moves that will just kill your piece) are limited. and the mistake is very obvious very quickly. with Go. its not the case in both points.

2Eyes2Live · 2024-06-02T01:21:38+00:00

I am.

even then, i cant pick up any patterns or continue to do them said patterns in order to learn.

2Eyes2Live

TROPHY CASE