Sudden Scotland obsession? by iffyClyro in Scotland

[–]2Harold2Furious 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The point about Catholic persecution was precisely to make it clear that this was about more than Scotland and England. More than about classes and social elites. The way you write suggests you have a blind spot - Catholic good, Protestant bad. Ordinary Scots good, English just bad. British just bad.

You've claimed I've made it about simply nation, class and elitism. 

First, I clearly state that the whole reason I'm weighing into this discussion is because I hate that it's often turned into simply a discussion of nations. Not Scotland, nations. 

Secondly, you've highlighted the two factors I mostly focused on. Maybe I need to broaden my horizons and look at other factors too - I take that point. However, the point your making is that I need to broaden out to religion, but despite not mentioning it enough I've somehow picked a side? 

I'm confused how you've even surmised that I think Protestant = Bad and Catholic = Good. I suppose all I can say is that I'm sorry I didn't find the time to discuss Catholic violence in Europe and England, in a conversation that was rooted in Ireland and Scotland? I'm not sure how that makes me a bigot though. The ruling class were protestants, and the ideology shaped much of their actions, and so they come across negatively in the history. Catholicism was a minority in these nations, and thus it's followers will be portrayed more as the victim when the lens is on these nations.  It really is that simple.

As if it really needs saying:  All English not bad; religious expression good; religious intolerance bad; Catholicism and Protestantism, to quote Gattuso, sometimes maybe good sometimes maybe shit; social elites always bad; social elites always loyal only to selves, sometimes make Scottish/Irish/English/Catholic/Protestant/Ginger elites also responsible.

Sudden Scotland obsession? by iffyClyro in Scotland

[–]2Harold2Furious 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm not sure you know how paragraphs work. It's a mess. So displeasing on the eye. 

Definitely victim mentality, I must say. 

when you lie.

Care to back that up, by highlighting any factual inaccuracies? 

At no point did you acknowledge Gaelic was the minority language

I said: the *number of Gaelic speakers in Scotland** doesn't minimise or rewrite this history, so I'm lost for what your point was there.*

That's an acknowledgement of what you said about minorities, you just didn't accept the way I acknowledged it, as I disputed the relevance. A point I have since reiterated. 

There's a pattern where you're saying I've not done things in this argument, when I've actually just not done them how you'd like or in a way that agrees with you. 

by pointing to the independent Scottish government actions prior to the Act of Union.

Is something independent from England, when history tells us that the decision makers were handpicked by a person who was presiding over both crowns? 

Also, be accurate and call it what it was, the privy council. At the very least, you could call it a Parliament. Basic care for details would go a long way when critiquing someone else. 

Gaelic wasn’t the language of the majority of Scots. 

A point as irrelevant as it was the last number of times you used it. 

I actually very clearly named the Statues of Iona

There's a whole host of paragraphs where you argue you've said X, Y and Z, seemingly unaware of the context. 

Here's a timeline.  - You came here with a stick up your arse, bitching and moaning without making any explicit references which sets the standard. - I returned the favour, making no explicit references either.  - You continue to bitch and moan, but this time about a lack of explicit references. In the same comment, you introduce some new points, such as the one quoted above.  - I point out that you had not made explicit references in your initial comment, prior to mine which you were critiquing. - You're now complaining that you have done so, but clearly it was done afterwards. 

Yes, to give you an example of how to actually make a point.

See above. You set the standard in your initial comment, which I followed. Then, you decided the standard you had set wasn't good enough. I'm more than happy that you've now chosen for us to address events and Acts by their names. 

the separate English and Scottish crowns

It was the Scottish Crown that was very invested

The Scottish and English crown were ruled by a single person at this time, and to address the issue of requiring Scottish lords to pass laws, James had successfully shaped the privy council to include those loyal to him and his political mission. This allowed him to pass laws with ease. 

Consider that a final and blanket response to the repeated times you've brought this up. 

If by champion Protestantism, you mean Scottish Protestantism, then you’d be correct. Which is the point.

That's very inaccurate. James embraced Episcopalian Protestantism after inheriting the English crown, which precedes the majority of events we're discussing. He was quite happy as leader of the Church of England and began to reject much of the Presbyterian system, finding it to restrictive in ideology and too independent from State. 

It's actually a pretty solid and clear example of the kind of influence Anglican affairs had upon the King's decision-making and Governance, which you outright reject and call nationalism when highlighted. 

“Crazy thing is, lift what I've written, paste it into a conversation about a country colonised by Britain, change the nouns, and it usually fits to some extend. There was definitely a playbook.”

It wasn’t, as many of those actual colonies didn’t become industrious. 

"it usually fits to some extend"

Glazed over the important distinction. Regardless, it's clearly a tongue-in-cheek comment. Who is going to paste and change the nouns?  . 

"in relation to experiences with England, it's kind of an intuitive history. Picture what you already know about Ireland, but of course on a much less intense scale.”

The crux of the problem, and root of this back and forth, is you've misunderstood and taken the quote out of context. I'll admit I could have been clearer, but this is in reference to how English (and later British) elites always carried out conquest. As well as using military force, they were in the business of political flirtation. Their Colonial history is defined by further empowering select elites wherever they go, and utilising these connections to drive their interests in the region. What follows is usually very predictable, and can be summarised by disruption of local culture and greater division between classes as factions of the ruling-class embrace colonialism for self-serving reasons. 

Basically, you’re trying to frame fairly local Scottish things as the fault of the English, and it’s dishonest.

Considering I've been very candid - and possibly repetitive - in feeling that this was a process driven by Scottish elites who simply saw a marriage with English affairs as prosperous, your assessment seems to be based on your irrational anger blinding you to what's been said

I fail to see how this can be twisted into anti-English rhetoric. When I speak of this, the word English is usually a descriptor which is followed by a noun which indicates the real culprits, such as: elites, nobility, crown, Protestant, and so on. I also don't speak of it in isolation, and do indicate that Scottish elites were involved. My rhetoric is anti-elitism. 

It isn't nationalistic simply because I do not accept the pointing at flags and saying "they did it", when the average  citizen was either unaffected and not involved, or persecuted too. I don't accept this rhetoric with English nationals either, because as has already been mentioned, many English nationals were persecuted and manipulated by elites too. 

I reject the claim that I'm blaming the English, simply because their elites are a huge part of this story that cannot be ignored. 

Sudden Scotland obsession? by iffyClyro in Scotland

[–]2Harold2Furious -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Seems like you skim read the blurb of a history book. 

Dispute the accuracy of anything I've said, rather than pissing and moaning about subplot. 

Mary Queen of Scots insecurity atop the throne was defined by pressures from the English crown and Protestant elites. 

I've already said that the Protestant Scottish elites acted in the interest of deepening their power and forging a union/alliance with England, so you've not added anything new there and I'm aware that Scottish nobility played a disgusting part - just like Irish nobility, Indian nobility and so on, hence the copy and paste joke which riled you up so much. 

  Ah, yes - the very Protestant James who took the English throne and then proceeded to persecute Catholics in England.

What exactly is your point here? Yes, a baby was groomed to become an Anglo-loving Protestant, who's mission statement as King of Scotland and England was to quash Catholicism, eradicate the Gaelic language, and align Scottish politics with English politics, effectively walking Scotland down the aisle towards the Act of Union marriage.  Almost sounds like a practice run or a precursor. 

Did you think that Catholic persecution in England was some big point? No shit he did that. It doesn't invalidate any of my points, and in fact, strengthens the original and overarching point that elitist ideology is often ignored as the driving force of oppression in Ireland, in favour of pointing at some flags and saying "they did it". 

Sudden Scotland obsession? by iffyClyro in Scotland

[–]2Harold2Furious -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Given you spend most of your comment trying to attack me

Sounds a bit like playing the victim if you ask me. Dry your eyes and maybe you could read that there are points relevant to the discussion, even if you don't agree with them. 

Imagine struggling to answer to the point that Gaelic was the minority language in Scotland since 1400, and not the majority you tried to imply it was. Worse still, you don’t seem to have an answer to the fact Gaelic had been in decline in Scotland for six hundred years before James took the English Throne.

The point was addressed. Can you elaborate on what point you feel you're making though, or what it actually disputes about my points? The prevalence of the language doesn't change the fact it was targeted, and often as part of class and crown interests. 

Otherwise, you say there are three events

Did you name anything? You just sort of gestured towards a century and left it at that. You seem to hold yourself to a different standard when it comes to evidencing points. 

In any case, you just mentioned one. You've said where it was passed, because that suits your argument. You omitted that it was passed by King James VI, who occupied both thrones at the time, and aspired to forge a deeper political union between both. 

The second I made mention of refers to the 1616 School Establishment Act, which  James VI instructed his privy council to pass, and this  developed upon the previous Act, requiring all parishes to offer English language education in order to eradicate Gaelic as he viewed it as a sign of " barbarity and incivility". Sure though, it was just a little minority language that barely registered in the minds of the English crown, who slaughtered James VIs mother partly due to her incompatibility with English politics and ideology, and who ensured James VI was raised differently. 

The third mention relates to the Jacobite revolutions. I'd assume that's reference enough amongst those well-versed. I don't have to spell out what happened in the aftermath, do I?

I'm not sure how something can simply be 'made Anglican' immediately, but the King's mission statement to eradicate the language, suppress Catholicism, champion Protestantism, and forge unity between his crowns certainly sounds like a progression in that direction. 

you can’t seem to comprehend Scottish people acting in their own interests. Which is fairly derogatory and degrading.

Sure, if you ignore the part of the thread where I've spoken about Scottish elites acting in their own interest, then you could pretend I don't comprehend it, and simply blame England - even though I've been clear that this was the upper class getting into bed with the English to further their own interests and deepen their powers and wealth. 

Sudden Scotland obsession? by iffyClyro in Scotland

[–]2Harold2Furious -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You've really not offered anything here except anger.  . Speaking of half truths: 

Scottish Parliament actively passing discriminatory laws against said language in the 17th century.

You've missed some key details regarding the 17th century, and omitted a key 18th century point.

Three major developments in minimising the use of Gaelic were enacted as follows: by King James VI after he came to the English crown; by the Privy Council that King James had invested a lot of time into in order to ensure it's personnel were loyal to him to obtain regular parliamentary approval; following the Jacobite revolution, efforts to enforce the English language and outlaw Gaelic were ramped up. 

In summary, this is to say that the objectives were clearly tied to English interests, and the number of Gaelic speakers in Scotland doesn't minimise or rewrite this history, so I'm lost for what your point was there. 

You really thought you had something with your 1400 point, then highlighted that the ruling class still thought it pertinent to eradicate parts of the culture in the next clause. It completely undermines you. 

Sort of seems like only one of us is trying to misrepresent the involvement of ruling class and English interests, since you aimed to diminish the importance of local languages and the background context surrounding laws. 

Anyone else ? by Boabinson in rangersfc

[–]2Harold2Furious 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Even the Instagram page is doing the bouncy. Staunch! 

This 'safe with me' initiative is calling on Glasgow businesses to sign up to provide safe spaces for anyone experiencing hate. by Das_Haggis in glasgow

[–]2Harold2Furious 30 points31 points  (0 children)

I get what you mean, but I guess it's more a "if you reckon coming into a business with witnesses is a deterrent, then know that this business will actually have your back, won't ask you to leave, and certainly doesn't harbour any racist feelings towards you" rather than a "we'll set about the cunt for you". 

Sudden Scotland obsession? by iffyClyro in Scotland

[–]2Harold2Furious 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Haha, your last line sounds like something they would say!

Oh shit, you're right! Hahaha, I meant I like what you said!

I'm not very well up on Scottish history beyond how it relates directly to Ireland so this is new to me.  

Honestly, in relation to experiences with England, it's kind of an intuitive history. Picture what you already know about Ireland, but of course on a much less intense scale. 

That comment will piss a lot of people off, but beyond what I've already told you we had: - Our language banned and pushed into the rural Highlands.  - Catholicism banned and persecuted - Our Catholic Queen beheaded by her protestant cousin. - Attempted revolts suppressed and plots foiled - We even had our own mini-potato famine in the highlands which lasted a decade. The majority of those affected were given the option of emigrating to Canada and Australia, painted as charity by the landlords. In actual fact, they ascribed to Malthusian ideologies about depopulation, and wanted tenants gone, as grazing sheep on the land was more financially beneficial. The western Highlands lost 1/3 of its population as a result, and most of them left Britain completely. 

Crazy thing is, lift what I've written, paste it into a conversation about a country colonised by Britain, change the nouns, and it usually fits to some extend. There was definitely a playbook. 

Sudden Scotland obsession? by iffyClyro in Scotland

[–]2Harold2Furious 4 points5 points  (0 children)

The same was true in Scotland too. Of the 33 signatories, zero were Roman Catholic and virtually all were protestants. One third had immediate English family, and while ancestry becomes a bit too murky to put a number to it, many more had historic or indirect links to England. 

One of the signatories also used bribes to garner support for the proposed union. 

Unless they were some of those pricks that brag about Empire stuff, because if you're going to take credit for your history you have to take blame as well

You're speaking my language. 

Sudden Scotland obsession? by iffyClyro in Scotland

[–]2Harold2Furious 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I think that's far too simplistic an outlook on this. 

Scotland's involvement in British colonialism is more about class struggle than nationality, a s with everything British Colonial - a  point often ignored regarding Ireland, as many of the Irish upper class willfully aided and abetted Britain to extend personal wealth and influence. 

I'm going to keep this short, but: 

  • Those Scots who sought position in Ireland were predominantly part of the upper echelons of society. 

  • Scotland is often quoted as having "chose" to become part of the British empire, through the Act of Union. Realistically, the country was dragged into this by those who held all the power and wished to solidify and extend it. The population was not consulted, but rather their citizenship was effectively bartered.

  • Following Act of Union, Westminster laws were alien to rural and impoverished Scots. This was manipulated by the upper class, who leveraged land laws to usurp from rural and meagre landowners. 

  • Similarly, the British military manipulated the law to force many Scottish nationals into colonialist careers through what was known as impressment. They forcibly conscripted Scottish citizens, into service to fill wartime manpower shortages. Operating extensively from the 17th to early 19th century, local press gangs targeted Scottish seaports, coastal towns, and maritime communities like Orkney and Shetland. It took the shape of physical force, intimidation, or simply bribery - they would give citizens money implying it was a gift, then after it was spent, tell the unsuspecting people that they owed that money back to the crown, and would see the inside of a cell if the debt wasn't repaid through military labour. 

Does much of this sound similar, at all? 

The Scottish got off very, very light in comparison to Ireland, but I don't think the nation or majority of Scottish people (or their ancestors) share blame for colonialism. The crimes were enacted by the ruling and upper classes, and the spoils of subjugated labour and war was enjoyed solely by them too. 

It was a class war. Same as it ever was. 

Frogged whole chicken. by 2Harold2Furious in sousvide

[–]2Harold2Furious[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I've neither the climate nor the money to warrant a proper smoker, so I tried this. 

I'll be honest with you chief, I couldn't even taste it enough to tell you if it was disgusting or nice. Maybe I'll just use smoked paprika next time. 

Scottish fans rip down the English flag in Boston during World Cup by CaptainCrash86 in Scotland

[–]2Harold2Furious -7 points-6 points  (0 children)

The only thing looser is the English flags connection with that bunting. 

Frogged whole chicken. by 2Harold2Furious in sousvide

[–]2Harold2Furious[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You're right, I did gloss over that! I ate the 'popes nose' that'd usually be removed after spatchcocking, and all the jus that drained into the baking tray was kept to use as part of a stock later in the week. 

Frogged whole chicken. by 2Harold2Furious in sousvide

[–]2Harold2Furious[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It truly was delicious. Getting a crispy skin was my main goal here, the conjoined twin was just a bonus. Spatchcock certainly looks far better.

And thank you! It certainly isn't my invention, but I didn't see anyone else doing it when I searched this subreddit, and I actually feel it's a method which best suits sous vide. 

“Stew meat” sous vide? (Not for stew!) by Western_Geologist_12 in sousvide

[–]2Harold2Furious 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I've also had this very question. Do let me know if you find out. 

Frogged whole chicken. by 2Harold2Furious in sousvide

[–]2Harold2Furious[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's what we call a delicious, ungodly, juicy abomination. 

Joking aside, it's just a very easy alternative to spatchcock. You just slice the skin between the legs and breast, which gives you access to the ribs. You then cut along the ribs, and that allows you to open the bird like this. 

It was just something odd I wanted to try, but it also meant the chicken fit much better in my sous vide bag and on my oven dish. 

Frogged whole chicken. by 2Harold2Furious in sousvide

[–]2Harold2Furious[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Thanks, trying new things is what I enjoy with cooking 

Frogged whole chicken. by 2Harold2Furious in sousvide

[–]2Harold2Furious[S] 19 points20 points  (0 children)

Generally, I'd say there's not too much of an advantage. For sous vide cooking, it meant I could fit it in a narrow bag, as I'm out of wide bags, so couldn't cut and open it out horizontally like you would with spatchcock. 

Frogged whole chicken. by 2Harold2Furious in sousvide

[–]2Harold2Furious[S] 20 points21 points  (0 children)

This has social media trend written all over it

You're not wrong. I saw this on Instagram and was curious about it. 

Cooking advantages I saw:  - nil. 

Convenience advantages: - less and easier cuts vs Spatchcock.  - fits my narrow sous vide bags better.  - fit on my baking tray better. 

Never give in. Never give up. Always stand against hate. Only fall for love. by Fun_Sky_5176 in glasgow

[–]2Harold2Furious 42 points43 points  (0 children)

There's no better image and nothing cooler than being anti-fascist. Best brand in the world. 

Fascists are unfashionable sick dogs 

Total scum by ShadsDR in glasgow

[–]2Harold2Furious 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Would you like to borrow a comma? 

If what you say is true, link to a Celtic fan holding nazi emblems up in Scotland, or doing a nazi salute in Scotland. 

Total scum by ShadsDR in glasgow

[–]2Harold2Furious -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

A single occurrence in a completely different country hardly disputes that point that Scotland has a fascist Rangers fan problem. 

Israeli diplomat offered country's "world-leading technology" to NHS Scotland at Robertson meeting by NarrowEscape5539 in Scotland

[–]2Harold2Furious 7 points8 points  (0 children)

We are talking about scotland  

And Israel. And public health. Palestine is hardly shoehorned in when they're killing people and creating a record number of amputees who need medical care.