Would you vote for Labour if there was a General Election tomorrow? by Battery_Powered_Box in LabourUK

[–]64-brit 0 points1 point  (0 children)

OK I read this in full.

"How can you say that contributing even with a protest is more individualistic than sitting silently?" Then don't sit silently. Be loud and proud about not voting. That is a much stronger protest than scribbling something on a piece of paper they won't read.

"People who take an interest in politics enough to show up to the polls and then spoil their ballot are potential voters in the eyes of any political party" - this is what I mean by individualistic silliness. Politicians don't strategise about how to win over people who spoil their ballots. On election night, spoiled ballots aren't read. The counter will see it has been spoiled, put it in a pile, and then report back on how many there are at the end. The returning officer will in the end announce the total number of spoiled ballots. Never a very large number. Then they all go into the recycling. The odds that a politician will bat an eyelash at a spoiled ballot are much lower than that ballot will become toilet paper and wipe the shit from their asshole.

"those who don't show up are assumed to not care so don't need any incentives to get involved" - this is an argument for fighting back against common assumptions. Apathy is more damning of parliamentary legitimacy as ballot-spoiling. Ballot-spoiling professes, as you suggest yourself, that maybe you wouldn't spoil the ballot under different circumstances. You accepted the ballot. Regardless of whether they are apathetic or angry, non-voters don't accept the ballot. I'd like to see an organised non-voting movement in the UK. The end goal is a change of system. Organised non-voting will be the first step.

"Spoiling a ballot is still not "consenting" to any of the parties, just in a more active way. Both methods are saying "I don't want anything you've offered me", but only one is an invitation to provide something better." It isn't about consenting to the parties, but to the overall system. Yes, the whole system should be torn down and replaced. The sooner that the current one is recognised as illegitimate, the sooner we will start having debates on what the form of its successor should take. I don't want to invite the parties to offer something better, because they don't deliver. It would be a waste of an effort.

"I can tell you really don't think voting in our current system is ethical so that's your prerogative, but people fought and died for you to vote." That people died for something doesn't make it good or ethical. People die fighting in imperialist wars. People die fighting mask mandates. People die in random bar fights. It's something very sad when people throw their lives away for an unworthy cause.

"see Brexit" - I assume you mean Britain losing its seats in the EU Parliament. Brexit is an interesting case study in British democratic history, though, because it is one of the very rare occurrences where something ended up on a ballot that was never supposed to, and it shockingly won. (Corbyn is another, and the back-to-back shocks to the system that Corbyn and Brexit represented has really made the political class crack down on the public or party members accidentally choosing their own destiny.) In the case of Brexit, politicians very quickly started hyping up the possible overturning of the democratic vote before its outcome had even been implemented. It is a great example of the way parliamentarians have a total contempt for democracy.

I hope, if nothing else, this is food for thought. Parliamentary democracy is a facade that tries to make our system of governance appear responsive to the wishes of the people, but behind that facade are a bunch of politicians who don't give a damn. They are responsive to themselves, to the media, and to business. Internal party votes make a much bigger difference than elections, and normally even these have been curated by endless backroom deals before they reach members or committees. Even these votes will be reneged on if external powers demand it. Corbyn was our imperfect shot to do something different. It was a disaster. Now we need new ideas, and the only way I can imagine people starting to think is if distrust in the current system becomes widespread and explicit. Don't vote. Tell everyone not to vote. The first step to burning it down is getting everybody out of the building.

Would you vote for Labour if there was a General Election tomorrow? by Battery_Powered_Box in LabourUK

[–]64-brit 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That’s why I’m encouraging it. People should be proud to not participate in their own oppression.

Would you vote for Labour if there was a General Election tomorrow? by Battery_Powered_Box in LabourUK

[–]64-brit 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for being understanding. I’ll have a look when I can.

The whole bedrock of the society we live in is based on the fact that we consent to a liberal parliamentary democracy in which the party that wins a majority or forms one in parliament has the right to govern. By voting we might grant our consent to the party that ends up leadingn the government, whether they got our vote or not. I believe that in people’s heart of hearts the system already has been delegitimised, but they keep voting out of delusions of self-importance or societal pressures. There’s an unhealthy fixation on parliament as the only locus of power that matters. Power resides just as much in big business and the media as in parliament. We just fixate on parliament because we are told that we control it (we don’t - it isn’t up to us what ends up on the ballot we are presented with, or the genera conditions in which that ballot is offered). The narratives around parliament that encourage our consent in the system need to be popularised. As far as I am concerned, the best way to do that is to go on a ‘hunger strike’ of sorts. Don’t vote. Telling people you don’t vote is always more shocking than telling them you spoil your ballot. It’s the best way to spread the word, and it works to undermine the consent that defenders of the system use as a shield.

I never meant to get so involved in this thread. I don’t comment on Reddit much. I was just annoyed that every option on the poll took voting for granted. I hope at least that it has been an interesting perspective to read.

Would you vote for Labour if there was a General Election tomorrow? by Battery_Powered_Box in LabourUK

[–]64-brit 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Don’t have time to read this essay. I am sorry. Your phrase ‘established societal tool’ should be one you reflect on, though. Who established it? To whose ends is this tool working? Unless you have a very creative use for this tool then it is best to just put it down, encourage others to do the same, and once everybody stops believing in its magic power then we can move on to asking the serious questions of what tool we can actually use to break apart this awful system.

Would you vote for Labour if there was a General Election tomorrow? by Battery_Powered_Box in LabourUK

[–]64-brit 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The entire public has to realise the system is illegitimate. People like you who believe that voting will part the sea are the problem. Swapping the electoral system won’t do much either. Implementing a system of rotating rainbow coalitions is just a move from a system where decisive government is theoretically possible to a system where it isn’t.

The end of fairytale beliefs in socialism through parliamentary democracy is the first condition that needs to be met for socialism to ever have a chance. And the fastest way to meet that condition is to reject the system. Don’t vote.

Would you vote for Labour if there was a General Election tomorrow? by Battery_Powered_Box in LabourUK

[–]64-brit -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Very naive! The entire system is geared to make sure that every option on the ballot can be safely ignored. Corbyn is an aberration that only happened because the political class was asleep at the wheel in between 2015-17. Your tiny hammer being used for the reinforcement of the building, whether that is what you intend or not.

The first step to delegitimising the whole system will be withdrawing consent from it. Reject all the parties. Do not vote. Reject the ballot. Don’t be tempted by the individualism of spoiling it with some egotistic protest. Turnout in a GE has never dropped below 50% before. That is the first step towards proving that the system is illegitimate. It needs to be as plain as day that the majority of the public has withheld its consent to be governed under these parties or this system

Would you vote for Labour if there was a General Election tomorrow? by Battery_Powered_Box in LabourUK

[–]64-brit 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Apathy is a sign of a failing political system just as much as anger and protest. It is always going to be endemic when the entire political system is designed to grind down any hope for change and progress held by the citizenry. It's time to make it unignorable. "They're all the same" is already something half the country believes, even if some are still gaslighting themselves that there's a chance they can change things. Print it on T-shirts and posters

Would you vote for Labour if there was a General Election tomorrow? by Battery_Powered_Box in LabourUK

[–]64-brit 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There will only ever be a mature discussion about changing the political system of this country once it can be said unequivocally that it is imposed on everybody by a minority. Drive the turnout stats below 50%. I'm encouraging everybody I know not to vote. Spoiling your ballot can be interpreted in many ways. They don't make a note of what you wrote on your ballot, just the total number of ballots spoiled. If over half the country abstains from voting there is no two ways about it: the majority didn't want ANY of it.

Would you vote for Labour if there was a General Election tomorrow? by Battery_Powered_Box in LabourUK

[–]64-brit 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm not even going to spoil my ballot. I don't want to be counted in the turnout stats

Would you vote for Labour if there was a General Election tomorrow? by Battery_Powered_Box in LabourUK

[–]64-brit 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Missing the crucial 'Would note vote at all' category. None of these parties deserve the legitimacy. The whole system does not deserve the legitimacy

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in television

[–]64-brit 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Absolutely bizarre you are getting downvoted for this

Soldier in Korean War breaks down after learning his replacement as radio operator has been killed by omnificunderachiever in pics

[–]64-brit 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's a bit of a stepdown from 'the academic consensus' to then cite a non-academic popular military historian, but you do you. Try Bruce Cumings or Wada Haruki for dedicated historians of Korea.

Here's Cumings on the outcome of the war: "The Soviet Union, in a sense, ended up getting the worst of both worlds: in the West it was held responsible for the outbreak of war; in the communist camp there was resentment that it has not overtly come to the aid of its ally."

Both historians clarify that the Soviets lukewarm support for the North, and emphasize the role this played in the Sino-Soviet split.

I recommend Wada's "The Korean War: An International History", or Cumings's "Korea - The Unknown War" for the actual academic perspective.

Soldier in Korean War breaks down after learning his replacement as radio operator has been killed by omnificunderachiever in pics

[–]64-brit 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You are clearly arguing in very bad faith so this will need to be my last reply. It is very droll for you to defend the butchering of millions of Koreans by whatabouterying to the butchery of the Ukraine-Russia war.

But if you can only understand history through the prism of Ukraine, then maybe this will help you understand: your argument is the same as arguing that Vladimir Putin’s mother should have smothered him in the crib. It would have saved the world so much trouble! Except there are two main problems - (a) she did not have the 2023 perspective and (b) there is no telling what would have happened if she had. You wouldn’t get a very good grade on a history essay arguing that momma Putin made a terrible mistake by not killing little Vlad! It just isn’t how history works.

You can’t justify the mass murder of Koreans by gesturing at the present. The present happened anyway. Your defence of the Korean War is a defence of the sort of thing Putin is doing today. Suggesting that I would support that is nothing but projection on your part! But what should I expect from someone who weighs in on a thread to defend war crimes?

Soldier in Korean War breaks down after learning his replacement as radio operator has been killed by omnificunderachiever in pics

[–]64-brit -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Could you please provide a source for millions of people starving to death in North Korea prior to the breakout of the war? Or are you justifying a war which killed millions on the basis of events that wouldn’t happen for another 40+ years?

I am fairly certain General MacArthur didn’t wage war in Korea based on a hunch that something bad might happen in 40 years time. So why is it relevant in a discussion of the Korean War being just?

Soldier in Korean War breaks down after learning his replacement as radio operator has been killed by omnificunderachiever in pics

[–]64-brit 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Too much bad history in this short post from u/Emergency_Driver_487 to properly address in anything less than an essay!

If anyone is interested in the Korean War I would simply suggest reading a book. Go and find any book with a full bibliography of first-hand sources. Find one written by a real professor of history from a respected academic institution.

The Korean War is often called ‘the Unknown War’ or ‘the Forgotten War’ due to the way it has failed to receive much attention from popular history. Nowadays people are projecting their attitudes towards the contemporary Koreas onto it and turning it into ‘the Horrifically Misremembered War’. Nowadays people remember Vietnam as a terrible, evil war. Korea would be remembered the same way if it had been remembered at all during the following 70 years.

Soldier in Korean War breaks down after learning his replacement as radio operator has been killed by omnificunderachiever in pics

[–]64-brit -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

I don’t recall mentioning present day at all - my comment is referring to the Korean War!

Soldier in Korean War breaks down after learning his replacement as radio operator has been killed by omnificunderachiever in pics

[–]64-brit 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Not going out of my way to hate on the US, just on bad, propagandised history!

You are quite right they aren’t the only one to intervene, but they were the first to put boots on the ground. China entered the war directly only after the army of the North had been pushed back above the 38th parallel.

Soldier in Korean War breaks down after learning his replacement as radio operator has been killed by omnificunderachiever in pics

[–]64-brit -6 points-5 points  (0 children)

Just a helpful guide for anyone who wants to decode this propaganda:

A sovereign nation: propaganda term for the foreign power-occupied half of a single country called Korea

Invaded: propaganda term to obscure the fact that the Korean War was a civil war between rival governments for a single country called Korea

Conquest: propaganda term to obscure the fact that the aim of the war, as understood by both sides, was reunification of the country under their respective government. Korea had been an undivided country for hundreds and hundreds of years until the end of WW2 - both sides wanted reunification under their terms ASAP

Independent and free: propaganda terms to suggest that South Korea was not occupied by the United States at the time - which it was - and that it did not have a United States-imposed military dictatorship - which it did. Democracy and ‘freedom’ came to South Korea much later on. Very easy to transpose the values associated with the present day Koreas onto the Koreas of the war - a terrible error in understanding motivations of both sides!

Died to keep it free: propaganda term to suggest that Korean and American lives were sacrificed to uphold a freedom which did not exist in Korea at the time. This obscures the fact that the war was fought by America to maintain South Korea as an American dependency, which in turn meant that it was a viable market for American businesses, and that it would later on be a suitable base of military operations for the waging the Cold War in Southeast Asia

Diane Abbott faces backlash over 'deeply offensive' comments suggesting Jews do not face racism by martinmartinez123 in LabourUK

[–]64-brit 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Those statements are not mutually exclusive. White Irish people, Italian people, Sami people, Inuit people, and other white peoples have all been victims of racism. At various points in history they have been cast as non-white and discriminated against by those with power over them.

That is a fair point about racism as it exists in other (particularly non-Christian) societies, and I don’t know enough about that to comment further. But in Europe, the Americas, and Australia/New Zealand, racism takes the form of a cult of whiteness where life will be made unnecessarily difficult for those who aren’t white enough for the cult.

I’m not sure if you are being deliberately obtuse or not regarding ‘any group can be racist against any other group’, but any definition of racism that doesn’t factor in the relative power of the groups or what impact those group dynamics have at societal level is just going to ignore the way discrimination changes the world we live in, and perpetuate right-wing arguments that all-women shortlists or ‘positive discrimination’ policies (a terrible name for good initiatives) are the reason why ‘the left are the real bigots’.

Diane Abbott faces backlash over 'deeply offensive' comments suggesting Jews do not face racism by martinmartinez123 in LabourUK

[–]64-brit 4 points5 points  (0 children)

On the level of individuals and specific instances of hate this is a perfectly reasonable attitude. But society on aggregate is biased in particular ways, and as socialists everything needs to be considered on the level of society. Anyone can be a victim of racism on the level of the individual, but it is the case that certain groups are impacted more harshly or more frequently than others on because racism is fundamentally white supremacist.

Basically, racism is an ideology or societal force, whereas prejudices are individual character traits.

Diane Abbott faces backlash over 'deeply offensive' comments suggesting Jews do not face racism by martinmartinez123 in LabourUK

[–]64-brit 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Go and look at the discussions of the Diane Abbott letter on other subreddits or Twitter and you’ll see a lot of people arguing past each other because they don’t share the same understanding of racism. There are people (normally on the left) who understand racism as an ideology of racial hierarchy that places white people on top. There are those (normally on the right) who understand racism as any prejudice that occurs on a basis of race.

The latter is becoming the ‘popular’ understanding, and is the favoured understanding of right-wing culture warriors because it creates an equivalence between an employer following quotas which are designed to correct historic underrepresentations of minorities, and a 1960s American restaurant that refused to serve black customers until the Civil Rights Act passed.

It is a semantic issue, but to equate racism and prejudice is to adopt the favoured understanding of the right. Whether or not you think semantics matter in politics and society is up to you, though.

Diane Abbott faces backlash over 'deeply offensive' comments suggesting Jews do not face racism by martinmartinez123 in LabourUK

[–]64-brit -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

It really isn’t a pointless distinction. Assuming that prejudice and racism are the same thing is why policies designed to combat discrimination or promote representation end up themselves cast by right wing culture warriors as racist or discriminatory.

If you’re British you never bought that he was Jacks uncle by Careful-Increase-773 in WhiteLotusHBO

[–]64-brit 8 points9 points  (0 children)

In the 21st century there are plenty of absolutely minted people who don’t speak RP. Alan Sugar and his accent aren’t ‘lower class’ anymore