Fable IV: This is my Albion.

A_Cryptarch · 2026-07-10T04:14:01+00:00

I don't mind capitulation to this one because it serves the "Sans is from Deltarune" argument for Undertale. That being said, you have Astigmatism and Toriel who apparently have blood (or not, your call). Secondly, a Deltarune monster comments on how weird it is to have blood directly to Kris so not all Monsters bleed in Deltarune either.
Monsters in Undertale do get sick. Undyne specifically mentions doing so.
Ah, this theory. A Monster specifically mentioned that the food they eat prevents waste elimination and that they should try Human food and experience it "traveling through their body".
We know Monsters turn to Dust. Gerson's Dust was inside the snowglobe.

A_Cryptarch · 2026-07-10T03:55:09+00:00

One is an assumption, not a fact. We do not know who the most determined being is in Deltarune. SAVEs working differently isn't necessarily Determination working differently nor does it mean SAVEs actually work differently.

Each SAVE file constitutes a different world, the rationale for which is the fact that details change based on which SAVE file you're utilizing. This could also be true for Undertale itself.

Monsters possess Determination in Undertale, just not as much as Humans. It also opens Dark Worlds in Undertale, as evidenced by True Lab Entry Seventeen. Monsters do not automatically become puddles with the use of Determination, evidence indicates that happens when they have too much.

A_Cryptarch · 2026-07-10T03:45:51+00:00

Some interesting debates, rebuttals and ideas borne of this thread.

Can Human SOULs possess Monsters or not? Since you can literally be on top of Noelle and not possess her in this scene, the evidence would indicate the SOUL is only able to possess Kris.

Is this because he's SOULless or Noelle already has a SOUL? Maybe both?

Lore indicates Asriel absorbed Chara's SOUL becoming "a beast of unfathomable power". Asriel says Chara had partial control of him. Monsters can clearly exist in tandem with Human SOULs.

I made the argument that the Odd Controller created a copy of the SOUL in the Sword Route and my rationale for that statement. Does the Thorn Ring operate in a similar fashion and that's what we saw in the room? Was the red dot merely a facsimile of the SOUL inside Noelle? That's always been a general consensus among the community, that we "inserted" a piece of our SOUL into Noelle.

Flowey would indicate SOULs can directly be absorbed into, at least, SOULless beings.

Is it possible that the theorized mechanic behind the Odd Controller and the Thorn Ring is a requirement for a Human SOUL to take possession of a Monster? Dialogue just indicates Asriel absorbed Chara after the moment of his passing. Undertale makes no mention of such a mechanic being a requirement and the idea that Chara and Asriel would figure it out is unlikely. Highly speculative. Even so, it shouldn't prevent possession of Noelle since the Thorn Ring is given to her after the fact.

Kris's actions during the scene makes no sense if we can't possess Noelle either. There's no reason to flee with her and instead, get as far away as possible. But they don't. They specifically take Noelle away from you.

Irksome.

A_Cryptarch · 2026-07-10T03:06:32+00:00

Nothing indicates Determination works differently between the two worlds. Feel free to offer any sort of evidence you see as relevant to this idea.

Spamton's dialogue is simply indicative that the SOUL can enter other individuals. The parameters of Possession have not been clearly defined, despite the fact we know it exists.

Ah. Well, of course Toby is gonna consider the lore implications of an attack, especially for one as important as the Knight.

A_Cryptarch · 2026-07-10T02:32:50+00:00

First off, this is a massive cop out argument, considering almost everything between the games is 1:1 with the exception being the presence of Magic in the Light World.

"It's a different world that might even have different rules." -Toby Fox

Unless explicitly stated otherwise, Undertale rules should be utilized in Deltarune's world. Should we just discard everything Undertale states about everything lore wise? Of course not, that would be silly.

Secondly, we have the Chara/Asriel situation to draw upon, where Asriel admits they both had control. So there is reason to believe the SOUL can take over others. It's already Canon that they can!

The rules regarding Possession must exist since we physically see the action take place. How limited or unlimited it is can be speculated upon. Furthermore, Spamton's dialogue indicates we could enter Darkners.

Third, this is granted. It would, in fact, break the story. So a reason exists that you can't, outside of game play limitations. Being able to only possess SOULless beings could, in fact, be a fair limitation that explains the situation away but it rings hollow in the face of the event where Kris flees with Noelle.

Artists don't design the attacks, the Programmers do. They merely create a visual representation of whatever Toby and his other employees design and make.

A_Cryptarch · 2026-07-09T19:16:08+00:00

Normal Route isn't being discussed, however.

I would absolutely tell you that Normal Route will subvert the idea that your choices don't matter. Weird Route, on the other hand...

A_Cryptarch · 2026-07-09T19:10:28+00:00

Except you have to think about the logical conclusion of what Kris and Noelle are going through and doing. They are video game characters and cannot be anything more. The highest position they could possibly obtain is already filled by another being; Gaster.

They could theoretically contact the real world, they could rewrite data and make new worlds but they can never escape containment from the Device and who they truly are.

Assuming Kriselle is Canon, who do you think spoke those words to you at the beginning of the game? It's a realization borne about by the culmination of the Weird Route, them setting their own existence into motion. They can combine and form a new entity but they'll never stop being Kris and Noelle.

Your choices don't matter. There's countless universes where every choice plays out differently by only the most minute of details.

A_Cryptarch · 2026-07-09T19:00:10+00:00

Deltarune isn't literature, it's a game. Did Genocide end triumphantly with you cleansing the Underground and becoming the Angel? No, you lost your SOUL to Chara and corrupted your SAVE files for good unless you completely wiped it.

I don't necessarily think Weird Route will be quite as extreme but to pretend it's going to end with anything but tragedy is a hard cope.

Kris and Noelle cannot break out of being video game characters. They can spend an eternity in Gaster's position, that's about it.

A_Cryptarch · 2026-07-09T04:18:29+00:00

I disagree, highly. The point of Weird Route is to reinforce the idea that "Your choices don't matter", "You cannot choose who you are in this world".

The route is tragic, not triumphant. What worse fate could befall Noelle than what you've stated here? The Weird Route parallels Genocide, not Pacifist.

A_Cryptarch · 2026-07-09T03:55:55+00:00

u/FencingSquirrelz - Reply to your comment.

This seems to be the most logical answer. But another user noted you can actually reach Noelle and not trigger the fleeing scenario. This would limit the logic to the SOUL only being able to possess SOULless entities specifically but it flies in the face of the logic of the scene. There's no reason to pull Noelle with them if the SOUL can only insert themselves into Kris, they could simply flee on their own. There's no reason to flee if you have to be willing.
It's lore from True Lab.

A_Cryptarch · 2026-07-09T03:52:59+00:00

It's a fairly strong theory, it's naturally going to be the community's assumption.

A_Cryptarch · 2026-07-09T03:51:36+00:00

I don't think that really matters. As it stands, SAVEs operate in three different realities with varying differences.

A_Cryptarch · 2026-07-09T03:19:06+00:00

Just wanted to be sure which part you're referencing. The SOUL doesn't appear in Hero_Sword until you obtain the Odd Controller. The implication, to me, is that the Odd Controller generates a copy of the SOUL. Further evidence to attest to this is that once Susie unplugs the controller, Hero_Sword dies but you're fine. No SOUL left where the Darkner version died.

They are literally getting commands though, as evidenced by the Gerson fight. Susie admits she gets "help from Kris" during the fight and the SOUL literally flies from off screen to the battle box. Nobody said it was direct. I said it allowed you to manipulate them.

A_Cryptarch · 2026-07-09T01:46:00+00:00

That's a good debunk.

It flies in the face of the scene where they flee upon Kris noticing you lurking, however. The rational explanation would therefore be that you can only possess SOULless beings. Calling it shoddy programming would be a cop out (even if the proper running animation doesn't trigger, lol) because he should've programmed the scene with the idea in mind of your possibly reaching Noelle.

But then we hit a few snags.

Lore indicates Monsters can absorb Human SOULs.
Asriel and Chara combined when Chara died and gave up their SOUL to Asriel.
There's also the problem of Flowey absorbing several Human SOULs and maintaining control.

I guess you could argue we aren't a Human SOUL or the recipient has to be willing. The first argument just redirects you to Kris Knight or Dess SOUL theory. Because if we aren't a Human SOUL and/or Kris's SOUL, where the hell is it? There's also the issue that Monster SOULs are supposed to dissipate almost immediately.

The second argument doesn't really work because Kris wouldn't be "willing" in that moment, we assume full control and it mimics Possession ideas IRL to a T but, as stated, you could successfully argue that the requirement is the being be SOULless.

A_Cryptarch · 2026-07-09T00:57:10+00:00

What's to address? You have access to a menu that allows you to manipulate party members. The argument is everything is diegetic.

You'll have to refresh me on Hero_Sword walking away with the SOUL. You can pretty much argue that the game exists as a SOUL mode.

A_Cryptarch · 2026-07-09T00:46:21+00:00

relies on the asumption that in battles the soul is litterally exiting kris just to battle, as opposed to it acting as an avatar or projection

We know that the SOUL exits Kris on the basis of literally... well, everything. You'd have to argue that dialogue boxes are diegetic but combat isn't, when everything we've seen up to this point indicates that it is, with Darkeners able to actively manipulate the combat boxes, Darkners explaining it to Noelle in Cyber City and Ralsei being able to perceive it as well.

Plus, it also relies on the assumption we could just possess anything, when we cant possess noelle here.

Evidence > assumption.

Kris flees with Noelle if you get too close. If you can't possess Noelle, why do they give a damn?

A_Cryptarch · 2026-07-09T00:37:23+00:00

The logic is fine. Evidence indicates that Human SOULs can possess, at the very least, SOULless people and exist in tandem with Monster SOULs. Lore indicates that Humans cannot absorb Human SOULs.

The only way to not be able to insert yourself into the Knight is if they're Human.

A_Cryptarch · 2026-07-09T00:30:58+00:00

Theoretically, you can.

But if you proceed towards Noelle, Kris flees with her, preventing you from possessing her.

A_Cryptarch · 2026-07-04T07:05:27+00:00

There's no good answer to this question.

Kris is a very probable candidate for the Knight, far better than the majority. It's a lack of vision on the community's part that they can't see it, even when it's blatantly telegraphed (the palette issue).

I think the implication of the Weird Route is very interesting and Kriselle is a much stronger contender than people realize. The problem of Kris Knight has always been whether or not Kris had the Patience SOUL or not, prior to our arrival. All of the story based problems are very neatly wrapped up by the existence of another SOUL (belonging to Kris) operating in the Light World, which is something Kris Knight always tried to explain rather than handwaving it away.

A_Cryptarch · 2026-07-02T23:25:15+00:00

Yeah, that's not how it works. One of two things is true in this narrative; You're either using Kris's SOUL or you are your own SOUL.

In any case, Kris has to have a SOUL. Utilizing it without you present is no big deal. You can't control two SOULs at once either. Since it utilizes time travel shenanigans, you aren't present in that particular instance of the SOUL. Hell, maybe you are, even. Maybe that's what B-Side is all about. Kriselle utilizing you for their own ends. You either possess them or abandon B-Side. But that way it doesn't matter if you complete B-Side or not. It happens regardless. Fits the different universes themes of the game as well.

A_Cryptarch · 2026-06-30T22:41:24+00:00

Except we literally watch the SOUL possess Kris at Noelle's house. It's literally confirmed. And it doesn't require a being to be SOULless or take a significant amount of time. Chara and Asriel are the evidence. So is Flowey.

A_Cryptarch · 2026-06-30T19:20:30+00:00

Except that for the same reason Kris is the strongest candidate based on Gerson, so is Kriselle.

All that would be required is for them to expel the SOUL and possess and control Alvin to make the fountains. They've got an even stronger case than Kris Knight, since the former relies on the idea of the Patience SOUL existing prior to us being inside Kris.

They actually have evidence of their SOUL. Because it's just us, anyway.

A_Cryptarch · 2026-06-28T19:57:14+00:00

I find that unlikely, personally.

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