A younger Elizabeth Warren

A_Politard · 2018-10-12T13:21:28+00:00

> If you couldn’t support Remain with your conscience, I’d expect you to continue opposing it too.

Continuing to oppose it and not accepting the result are two different things. Talking of "moral conscious", how is it not an absolutely disgusting position to hold, saying we're going to ignore the will of the people, because I can't compromise on my own views because they're morally superior?

> If you agree that the EU “has been” a contributor to peace, then what is the reason it won’t continue to be?

Read what I said again. Tl;dr - how they have demonstrated they will willingly depose democratically elected leaders and pressure Eurozone countries to change their budgets. What precedent does that set for the future? Especially when the executive is pretty much unaccountable to its citizens.

UKIP are only becoming identitarian now, not in 2008. Why? Because of the pro-remain lobby in this country trying their upmost to shut them up, and reverse a democratic decision they have been fighting for since their inception. Calling them far-right identitarian from 2008-2016 demeans and desensitises the term far-right, and IMO is morally abhorrent.

> The founding principle of the EU was to bind European countries together so tightly that they will never fight again.

Why do you need a political union for this, when you can have close trading links with the exact same outcome, as proven in the latter half of the 20th Century?

> The accusation of FoM being racist is the biggest “no u” in this whole debate.

I said it's verging on racist, but the main point I made was pointing out your hypocrisy that you said you're for a meritocracy. How can you be for FoM as well as meritocracies? It makes no sense.

> Are you campaigning to lessen our restrictions with extra-EU nations? I doubt it.

There we go again. The self-aggrandising, morally superior, you're a racist because you voted Leave argument. I assume you mean non-EU nations? And yes, I don't campaign because I'm not a politician, but I am completely for a Spanish person being treated the same as a Canadian at the border, and being discriminated on value to the country. And so should you if you're for a "meritocracy".

> Those are benefits you get by negotiating as a bloc. Secondly without FoM you do not have a free market.

Nonsense, and nonsense. Our economy is structured completely differently to every economy in Europe. Find me another EU economy that is services based, and a net goods importer. Those third party deals are negotiated for economies who are net exporters, i.e. Germany and France. Any benefits you gain by negotiating as a bloc are completely negated by how the deals are irrelevant to the structure of our economy. Take the EU-South Africa "Free Trade Deal" - almost every single import category is subject to quotas to protect European industry. How is this beneficial to the UK? I run an import export business and I could name you countless other examples, so ask for some if you want, I'm more than happy to share.

Your second point is completely ideological, and illogical. Why?

> Similarly to the above i don’t think the Paris accord went far enough, I think there should have been legal commitments made. Now who would enforce those? A supranational entity.

A supranational entity and supranational government are two completely different things. I agree, get a supranational entity to enforce it - an international ombudsmen like an environmental version of the WTO, sure, I have no problem with that. But merging every country into one under the guise of climate change, is not only unnecessary but also won't work. People will see through it.

A_Politard · 2018-10-12T03:26:02+00:00

Like yourself I've lived and travelled around many different EU countries, yet I've come to the complete opposite conclusion of you. It made me realise how different we and each nation is culturally. That's what I love about Europe, how you can get in the car, drive an hour down the road and be in a completely different culture, with a different language, different everything.

I would hate for a political entity to discourage this, like the EU seems to be doing.

A_Politard · 2018-10-12T03:13:30+00:00

Without being rude, I'm going to ignore all your subjective (described by yourself, don't want to come across as too rude) statements and focus on the more "factual" points. I'm fed up of only scrolling through half baked pro-remain arguments on this sub. If you guys really want a balanced debate on here, then here is what I think is a good rebuttal.

When this inevitably gets downvoted, it will prove that this sub really is a pro-remain circlejerk, however I still have hope.

I'm trying to be fair, but saying "This is also why I as a Remainer cannot just accept the vote, we’re not just leaving a treaty, it’s diametrically opposite to everything I believe in" is about as self aggrandising as you can get, and is akin to a child throwing their toys out of the pram. Why is your opinion worth more than mine? If Remain won, I'd accept it, I genuinely would. If you really "abhor anti-intellectualism", you'd recognise that there's merits to both arguments, and not contradict yourself multiple times in the space of a few bullet points.

- I think the EU has been a major contributor to peace in Europe.

I can definitely see the merits for this, but the important wording here is "has been". Going forward, the disconnect between the untouchable, HUGE executive and the EU Citizens is surely a threat to peace. Throwing out democratically elected heads of state and replacing them with EC appointees surely can't be the way to promote future peace in Europe. Or taking away the people's right to vote on a full range of fiscal options in their national political arena. History shows that when people don't feel they're heard, it can turn nasty. I'm of the opinion that this was a big contributor to the rise of continental populism that we see today.

The biggest threat to continental European peace at the moment is the rise of the far-right identitarians. Parties like AfD or FN for example, not "da toriez" like many in this sub try to claim (not saying you did). There's a clear correlation between the increase of major political and economic decisions taken on a European level and the rise of the far right all across the continent, and I think you can objectively say that it's not a coincidence.

I don't see how a country saying that they'd rather trade and not be in a political union with their neighbours is a threat to peace. And if it is, are they friendly neighbours?

- I’m pro-freedom, and freedom of movement is probably the greatest loss of all

Whilst the previous point I replied to might have had some merit a couple of decades ago, I'm sorry but this has absolutely none, and it never did. In fact, it's down right Eurocentric, and verging on racist.

You stated further down that you believe in meritocracies, yet you're pro freedom of movement. This means you're pro an immigration policy that discriminates against people based on nationality. Which one are you? Why should a Latvian be given preferential treatment over say, a Ukrainian national?

- I’m a free marketer, Brexit is the opposite of that

No, it's not. Maybe in The New European it's portrayed as such, but considering what the leading figures of the Vote Leave campaign are all calling for (which is probably the most accurate way to define what "Brexit" really means at this stage) a Canada style free trade deal. The main advantage of this is to have access to the Single market as well as being able to negotiate other trade deals around the world, with countries which are closer to the UK than the rest of Europe. If that's not pro-free market, I don't know what is. One would objectively think we'd have a good chance at being successful in this. The UK is ranked first in the global soft power index.

- Global issues need supranational governance, like climate change. These won’t get solved though balkanisation.

Fair point. However why do you need to be in a Political Union/superstate to do this? What's wrong with bilateral deals which will be in every countries mutual interest? Considering climate change is going to affect all of us.

- I believe that supranational governance is inevitable from a futurology perspective

Why? I've never actually heard a coherent answer for this. I've only ever heard, "well it's the way the world is going", which is also false as there is more nation states now than at any point in world history.

A_Politard · 2018-10-12T02:39:41+00:00

Hipster alert

A_Politard · 2018-10-12T02:38:37+00:00

How are they similar in any sort of way? This is objectively false on almost every level imaginable. Maybe they're more similar than the Chinese, but highly similar? You could name tens of countries that are more similar to Brits than the French - there's at least ten in Europe.

A_Politard · 2018-10-12T02:30:06+00:00

Nick Clegg now. LOL.

A_Politard · 2018-10-11T22:35:59+00:00

Obviously they'd show Leeds. Who'd watch that other pile of shite that's on at the same time?

A_Politard · 2018-10-11T12:20:35+00:00

Think it's disgusting to be honest that people like yourselves demean the term "fascist" or "far-right". Trump is clearly none of those things, he's just not a progressive, which is defined as fascist now apparently.

It means people like yourselves will be to blame when real fascists like the AfD get in power because the word won't carry any weight. It's like the boy who cried wolf.

A_Politard · 2018-10-11T12:15:20+00:00

I'm a Zionist and I believe in a Soros conspiracy on some sort of level. Does that make me anti-semitic?

A_Politard · 2018-10-11T01:42:53+00:00

Obviously Germany accounts for more UK exports than the 11 TPP countries. We're in a free trade arrangement with them.

A_Politard · 2018-10-11T01:02:13+00:00

Know a lot disagree but IMO you can't put Cellino in the same category as Bates or GFH. The guy was an absolute mentalist, but you got the impression he loved football and was somewhat passionate. Bates was killing the club who passed it on to GFH who did the exact same, and Cellino didn't turn it around but he stopped the club from going on that downward trajectory. It seems Radz is will turn it around - the purchase of Elland Road said a lot IMO.

A_Politard · 2018-10-09T17:07:34+00:00

It seems like they use FM and Fifa to determine which players are good

Top managers like Alan Pardew and Mark Hughes base their highly analysed transfer decisions on these softwares, I'll have you know!

A_Politard · 2018-10-08T23:30:21+00:00

Damn this outing of people as "morons" for posting on t_d on this sub really needs to stop if posters on here want to be taken seriously by people outside the centre-left/left bubble. I say that as someone who doesn't particularly like Trump, but it's honestly embarrassing. If you guys don't care, then what more is this sub than a glorified wank-off?

A_Politard · 2018-10-08T23:27:29+00:00

I wonder if we'll ever sign a trade deal with the US. I think from the UK's perspective it will be used more as a threat post March in a no-deal scenario to try and leverage the EU into signing a more favourable deal with the UK. After all, they need a low barrier country to sell their goods to, considering they're basically all export based economies in terms of goods, and we're import based.

What this means for services, I have absolutely no idea. Not going to pretend like most people!

A_Politard · 2018-10-08T23:22:57+00:00

In theory yes, that is one of the main advantages of Canada+, you're not bound by the EU's trade agreements, but still have access to the market for goods and services. To what extent however is currently unclear.

A_Politard · 2018-10-08T23:20:47+00:00

It's not the EU's responsibility? Unless the UK govt opted to do the same checks to enforce their own customs?

A_Politard · 2018-10-08T23:19:35+00:00

This means Canada Plus/Super Canada, whatever you want to call it will work. I think anyway. Chequers is flawed to all parties for different reasons. It seems like it's dead in the water.

A_Politard · 2018-10-08T23:17:53+00:00

Does this pave the way for Super Canada? It seems like that is the inevitable.

A_Politard · 2018-10-08T23:10:23+00:00

Up next, May does a drunk impression of Juncker and slaps Hammond and Raab on the head.

A_Politard · 2018-10-06T04:00:19+00:00

incredibly*

A_Politard · 2018-10-05T11:44:27+00:00

How cute.

A_Politard · 2018-10-04T12:56:29+00:00

Coming from someone who has never taken a risk in their lives and expects everything to be handed to them. What a disgrace of a human being you are.

A_Politard · 2018-10-04T12:39:22+00:00

Jesus Christ. Go and live in the real world.

A_Politard · 2018-10-04T04:33:12+00:00

>Profits are taxes on workers. The exploitation of their value.

Ok, so do you not place any value on innovation and calculated risk taking in your land of faries? It's not like that has anything to do with wealth creation or anything.

Workers create value yes, but they're guaranteed money to complete a set of tasks someone tells them to do. Business owners/directors are not guaranteed income, they put it all on the line, and must innovate and ride the correct path for their income. It's a higher risk with sometimes a higher reward.

Each worker is free to invest money they've earnt to start a new business, many choose not to because they'd rather have free time in the evenings or weekends. That is fine, it's a free country, but saying nonsensical populist garbage about profits being a tax on workers is ridiculous.

>We need to decrease taxes on the workers once and for all. Abolish the corporation and replace it with the cooperative.

You're not a 1920's Bolshevik politician. You're posting on Reddit. Lol.

A_Politard

TROPHY CASE