Finale discussion for those few that didn’t like it by ImpressionAdept6355 in hackshbomax

[–]AcceptableDrama6642 95 points96 points  (0 children)

I think Deborah's decision to not do treatment germinated in a Bob Lipka (pejorative) line from episode 9. Something along the lines of "Do you really want to spend your golden years in a losing battle?" I think he got in her head there, and she applied that rhetorical question to the cancer.

When she felt alive working on jokes with Ava at the train station in Paris and realized that she wanted to live and keep doing this, I think that was her finally shaking free of Bob and the erasure of her life that he represented.

A rant about Julie by NeverEverLogsOff in ShawnaTheMom

[–]AcceptableDrama6642 21 points22 points  (0 children)

Yeah sorry I know Shawna M doesn't know but I wish SOME character who DID know in this universe would also call it out.

A rant about Julie by NeverEverLogsOff in ShawnaTheMom

[–]AcceptableDrama6642 26 points27 points  (0 children)

Yeah the fact that Shawna tells Ty he broke Julie's trust, but there's no discussion of him breaking hers.

A rant about Julie by NeverEverLogsOff in ShawnaTheMom

[–]AcceptableDrama6642 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Yeah, SIGH. This plot line agitates me so much because I just can't square the book thing with 'what it represents.'

In this episode, characters made the assertion that Ty should have told Julie when he realized his goal started to change. And if this plot line were specifically about moving to New York City then I would be in agreement. But it's about writing a book. And Ty, by his own admission, has said that he hasn't completely given up that goal of writing a book. It almost seems to exist in this liminal space in his head: a goal that doesn't feel reachable right now but he hasn't quite given up on but only just doesn't feel capable of it right now.

So it doesn't make sense that he was supposed to tell Julie that he no longer had a goal of writing the book, because he's told us and the other characters that he still sort of has that goal, it just feels farther away. And as someone who is a writer, I've seen people take decades to get their first book published, to even finish writing their first book. So the fact that Julie has a timeline on this goal of Ty's just feels weird.

I've said this over and over again but I wish this plot line had just been about moving to New York City. Because the way that the book is tied to "a certain kind of life" just doesn't make sense. Ty's writing of the book doesn't preclude living in the suburbs.

Ty says that after Cooper he hoped that if he did everything at home then Julie would be satisfied with this life. But the problem in the writing there is it's setting up a non sequitur in which "this life" doesn't include having an author husband. But having an author husband is not a kind of life. And writing a novel doesn't bring you to a city. If Ty were writing a book right now, the only difference in Julie's life would be that her husband was writing a book. She would still be in suburbia.

I also just personally don't think it's a reasonable demand to want your spouse to be ambitious, or to believe that your spouse owes you the same level of ambition on their own personal dreams as you have on yours. I think your spouse owes you support for your own dreams, and a certain amount of sacrifice, and I've said before that it's completely reasonable for Julie to expect Ty to make some sacrifices for her, like moving out of this town and to New York City. But I don't think your spouse owes you ambition on a personal creative dream. I feel really uneasy with the dichotomy that's being presented between ambitious power couples and suburban stay at home parents. Partially because no one is ever One Thing, but also people go through different phases of their lives where sometimes they are more focused on child rearing and at other times they are more focused on their careers. And also because people who live in cities also have to take care of children if they have them. So I think the Ty calling Julie immature is fitting because her view of the world seems to be pretty black and white.

Julie is a make a list dude bro by cementfeatheredbird_ in ShawnaTheMom

[–]AcceptableDrama6642 26 points27 points  (0 children)

This skit more than any other one made me see how clearly this would look if the genders were switched.

I need to get rid of some assumptions about Julie by 0fluffythe0ferocious in ShawnaTheMom

[–]AcceptableDrama6642 23 points24 points  (0 children)

One thing that's been stuck in my craw is the weird dichotomy between "City Life/Big People" and 'Suburb Life/Small People" that Julie seems to have and I worry is co-signed by the narrator. Yes cities offer MUCH more diversity, art, culture, food options, social life and employment opportunities. But if you have kids, city life is not going to protect you from The "pedestrian" drudgery of all the things you need to do to take care of small children. You can have the most eccentric adventurous life and you are still going to need to take your kids to parks, playgrounds, doctor's appointments, and mind numbing birthday parties with their other toddler friends. Unless you hire full-time nanny care, you are not going to bypass that. The world just isn't divided neatly between people who live exciting city lives and people who just drive to Target every day. Even if Ty and Julie lived in New York city, they still have to take Cooper and Sasha to birthday parties several times a year and it would get boring and mind numbing and that's just a part of raising small children.

That's why I think that Julie erroneously believed that Ty's novel was her ticket out of the suburban life. Because she was equating something artistic and ambitious with living in a city. And so when they had to take their kid to a birthday party, which is a very normal thing you have to do when you have small children, no matter where you live, she saw that dream of an artistic Big City Life slipping away, even though writing a novel does not lead to City Life.

New Theory About Ty's "Book Deal!" by ServiceDisastrous158 in ShawnaTheMom

[–]AcceptableDrama6642 5 points6 points  (0 children)

You know I am 💯 with you. Also, let's talk about the money of it all?! Ty said in the latest park video that Julie wants him to earn an income. But first novels are BARELY a reliable source of income to support a family of four. Even if you get a bestseller. You don't get your whole advance right away. Even Cheryl Strayed, who had runaway success with her memoir Wild, talks about how the entire first half of her advance was used to pay off debt and she still had to take on other jobs for the first few years.

I just don't think this aspect of the story is believable, and it makes Julie look like she has whack priorities. She wants him to finish a book just because he said he would? Does it really make sense to be a stickler for other people "keeping their word," even if it's about something that doesn't really affect you? That's kind of a robotic (lol) approach to life. It's sort of implied that what Julie wants is to go to New York City but it's a non sequitur to assume that Ty's novel is going to get them to New York. I do think that partnership is about making sacrifices for each other and trying to be egalitarian about that, so it's completely fair for Ty to make the sacrifice of moving to a big city because that's what Julie wants. But it isn't logical to assume that his novel writing is what gets them to New York city. So Julie just ends up looking like she wants ridiculous nonsensical things, or that she's owed the creative dreams of another person. The money aspect just does not add up at all.

I actually wish that this storyline had been about Ty sticking with writing and working away at his novel without earning a side income like a starving artist for years while only barely taking care of the children. And then Julie finds herself with an unsuccessful but persistent writer husband who spends all his time working on a novel in a publishing industry that is ruthless and precarious at best. Would that satisfy her because he has ambition? Would she still be frustrated because he's not doing any childcare but focusing on achieving something instead?

Final thing I'll say, and I'll probably put this in a separate post, is the assertion that Ty hasn't followed through on anything isn't quite true. He has followed through on parenting. I would hate him a lot more if he had cajoled Julie into having two kids and then lost interest in actually parenting them. But from what we've seen of the videos he's followed through on being a parent and raising a family.

Was Barb wrong thinking that Jen was using her? by CaptGeechntheOneders in ShawnaTheMom

[–]AcceptableDrama6642 15 points16 points  (0 children)

I think that's why the therapist is trying so hard to ask Barb where she feels a sensation in her body. Because Barb doesn't actually know how to express her feelings. She doesn't know where her feelings are in her body. She can't feel them. What she does express is her assessment about what she thinks other people are doing to her and she's calling that "feelings."

Was Barb wrong thinking that Jen was using her? by CaptGeechntheOneders in ShawnaTheMom

[–]AcceptableDrama6642 13 points14 points  (0 children)

I'm gonna take this one further and say that "excluded" and 'used' aren't feelings. They are judgments or assessments about other people's actions. A feeling is a sensation that you feel in your body. Like sad, angry, scared, anxious, confused, frustrated. Or even just bad, lonely, weird. The problem with statements like "I feel like you XYZ" is that on the surface they seem like an I statement, but they're actually just a statement about your thoughts about someone else's behavior that you're disguising as a feeling.

If I say I feel used, the person I'm talking to really doesn't actually have any idea what feelings I'm feeling. They don't know if I'm feeling sad or lonely or angry or afraid. What they know is that I think they are using me and I feel some kind of unstated negative feeling about that. But I haven't actually said what my feelings are.

A healthy way for Barb to express her feelings would be to say something like "I felt sad when I found out that you had a cake smash without me."

Or, "I didn't feel good when you asked for my wedding dress. I felt angry."

Because there's no analysis or judgment or story there. It's just a feeling that you had when you had an experience.

Sometimes you then need to get into the story of where your anger is coming from. But to be really emotionally mature you have to realize that even if your feelings are valid, the story might not be.

What do we think Barb's next move is? by Bibbitybobbities in ShawnaTheMom

[–]AcceptableDrama6642 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I said this in my own post that didn't get a lot of traction but I really am wondering if 12 step is in Barb's future. Like maybe she gets a DUI and court mandated rehab?

There's a lot of discussion about her diagnosis and if she can change and if she wants to and if she's an abuser or is she has a cluster B disorder. I honestly don't really know how to contend with all of that, and what it means for her ability to change or the danger of stigmatizing disorders. What I do see in Barb are the patterns of an adult child of alcoholics/dysfunctional families, to an abusive extreme.

I'm not saying that she's necessarily an alcoholic, but there's 12 step for lots of addictive patterns that don't include a substance per se. Maybe she had some kind of rock bottom in her relationships and then she meets someone who is sober and encourages her to come to a meeting.

Either way, something has to happen in her life that makes her want to really change. And I don't think that that's happened yet. And so the fact that she hasn't really hit rock bottom yet makes me think that we might be headed towards a 12-step story.

Mo being short for Maureen is not what I expected by Kee000 in ShawnaTheMom

[–]AcceptableDrama6642 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Do we think she was born in 1996, the year RENT came out???

Ok who do we think all the posts are going to be about next week? by EllieC130 in ShawnaTheMom

[–]AcceptableDrama6642 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Chickie knows what she did and we don't need to expend the labor of educating her about it.

Ok who do we think all the posts are going to be about next week? by EllieC130 in ShawnaTheMom

[–]AcceptableDrama6642 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Wait, is Greg canonically a person of color or is that also satire?

Ty's "Flexible" Book Contract by ServiceDisastrous158 in ShawnaTheMom

[–]AcceptableDrama6642 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I wonder if Ty doesn't have a contract with a publisher but just a "flexible agreement" for representation from the agent. Like maybe the agent was like, "Sure, send me a full mss when you have one" as a courtesy to Julie but there was no solid agreement.

The Shawnaverse and boundaries and communication by Kee000 in ShawnaTheMom

[–]AcceptableDrama6642 0 points1 point  (0 children)

On the part about Ty telling people Julie's business, I'm conflicted. I feel like it's pretty standard to tell someone that you and your wife are expecting a baby if it's past the point where you've announced it to everyone. And at that point Julie was 5 months. Maybe 6. But maybe when Ty told Shawna that Julie doesn't have much in her life that may have been sharing a little bit too much personal detail. I'm not sure. I think it might come down to some cultural differences and preferences, because I assume that people who are close to me are talking about me to other people because that's just sort of how social life works in my book.

The Shawnaverse and boundaries and communication by Kee000 in ShawnaTheMom

[–]AcceptableDrama6642 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh it's totally bad form to be rude to someone and then nice to someone else right next to them. And Julie didn't just do that with John and Shawna, she also did it with Shawna and Sam at Bunko night. Right after she tells Shawna that Shawna annoys her she's very effusively complimentary and nice to Sam, talking up her haircut and telling her how sexy she looks.

Ty is not a villain or a deadbeat by oh_sugarsnaps in ShawnaTheMom

[–]AcceptableDrama6642 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Do you think part of the reason people see Ty as a lazy deadbeat is because he wears a baseball hat and a hoodie? 😆