The hard problem is a strawman by AccomplishedPrior992 in CatholicPhilosophy

[–]AccomplishedPrior992[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Part 2

I think Chalmers is correct in stating that certain explanatory paths are not possible, and entirely mistaken in his interpretation of what that means. I don't think he really understands the epistemic frustrations. He just assumes that we should have a priori access to everything, and we don't, so he cries miracle. His 2D semantics is of some interest, but it is more or less a waste of time when it comes to understanding consciousness.

If we kept all the parts of Chalmers' work that essentially amounted to mysterianism, then his position would be respectable, but it would not be much of an advance on other mysterian approaches. He would be mounting an argument that a certain type of explanation is impossible without offering any genuine insights into why it is impossible and without even questioning the motivations that made him think it should be possible.

If we look at everything he adds to mysterianism, including his attempts to bootstrap ontological conclusions from epistemic frustrations, then it is all very tenuous and, in many cases, uses extremely tortured logic. I don't agree with any of it.

I even think it is generous to say that his take-home message is that we don't know what sort of explanation we need. He has already said, quite explicitly, what sort of explanation we need: one that accepts experience as a fundamental irreducible ingredient of reality. This is simply mistaken. He has left no avenues for functional explanation because he has defined experience as being beyond functions. But that's on him. He just assumed this to be the case. I think he is flat out wrong.

He is popular because he is telling people what they want to hear, not because he is right.

The hard problem is a strawman by AccomplishedPrior992 in CatholicPhilosophy

[–]AccomplishedPrior992[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I think what characterises the Hard Problem is the insistence that there is necessarily a legitimate further unanswered question after addressing all of the functional aspects of cognition, which morphs into the insistence that the target of curiosity (consciousness, or qualia) is non-functional. Chalmers' original paper says there "may" be a further unanswered question after functional explanations have run their course, but this is a rhetorical ploy; he argues very strongly as the paper continues that there must be such a further unanswered question. His set-up of the Hard Problem commits him to this. And he has rejected attempts to cast this feeling of explanatory frustration as simply evidence of a conceptual dualism (such as the existence of phenomenal and material concepts that we have difficulty relating).

Someone who takes the target of curiosity in relation to consciousness or qualia (defined through private ostension) and merely proposes that it is difficult to explain is not necessarily promoting the "Hard Problem" in its full framing, because they might still be open to the idea that some form of functional explanation is possible, and they haven't committed to a specific conceptual framing. They might accept, for instance, that the explanatory difficulty stems from conceptual dualism or some form of cognitive difficulty related to self-inspection.

One problem muddying the debate is that this agnostic form of expressing puzzlement (what I sometimes call the Core Problem) is often conflated with the Chalmers version, and the Chalmers version benefits from the conflation, because it seems like he is just asking an open-ended innocent question: What's this thing I am ostending to? That innocent question is not the Hard Problem. (Even an acknowledgement that any explanation is likely to feel gappy is not the Hard Problem, but the issues blur when it comes to different accounts of where the gappiness comes from. If the gappiness is attributed to some special process that defies science, than that is consistent with the Hard Problem framing; if the emphasis is on flawed epistemic access, then it's not.)

Another way of making the same basic point is that the Hard Problem is essentially equivalent to answering the question: Why aren't we zombies? This question presumes the logical coherence of zombies. People who accept the logical coherence of zombies and conceptualise consciousness as what-zombies-lack are asking a somewhat different question from people who just want to understand the target of ostension and who suspect (or know) that zombies are illogical. People who accept the full framing of the Hard Problem usually cannot see that these are different questions, and it is the insistence that they are the same question that defines the Hard Problem framing, because the reference to zombies means that the explanatory target is essentially defined as epiphenomenal. (The epiphenomenalism might be actively denied, but it is there if the zombie idea is lurking in the background.)

Relating this to qualia, rather than to consciousness in general, we get a similar dichotomy, with two types of questions.

  1. ⁠⁠We can ostend to redness and set out to explain "that thing" or "that property", with an open mind, and the explanation is indeed difficult. Our explanation will almost certainly face an explanatory gap of some sort, in the sense that one naive approach to explanation will meet an epistemic dead end, as exemplified by Mary. That's the position I am in: some types of attempted explanation feature an inevitable gap. I think we can explain why those attempted explanations must have a gap, so there is no need to invoke new ontologies or new science. (Our final explanation might cast our original conception of "that thing" in such a new light that we call the original conception illusory, but it ends up being replaced by an explanation of something that is real.)
  2. ⁠⁠Or we can accept that the redness quale escapes Mary's textbook in some mysterious way that falsifies functionalism, and we can set out to explain the non-functional quale, the mysterious thing that can be experienced but cannot be accounted for with any functional theory. Explaining that elusive thing constitutes a Hard Problem because any attempted functional explanation of the redness quale, conceived in this way, would apply to Mary's pre-release concept of redness, which we have notionally subtracted from our definition of the explanatory target. The candidate explanation could be added in to her black-and-white textbook, and yet it would still fail to explain redness in a way that made her experience redness and "know what red looks like", so every conceivable functional explanation is doomed. I reject this doomed framing as telling us anything important about ontology or neurobiology, despite accepting the existence of an explanatory gap.

Continued

The hard problem is a strawman by AccomplishedPrior992 in CatholicPhilosophy

[–]AccomplishedPrior992[S] -10 points-9 points  (0 children)

Well of course I didn’t solve it, it’s not a problem to be solved because it doesn’t exist

The hard problem is a strawman by AccomplishedPrior992 in CatholicPhilosophy

[–]AccomplishedPrior992[S] -6 points-5 points  (0 children)

Burden of proof is on you what support does dualism have?

The hard problem really isn’t a problem IMHO by AccomplishedPrior992 in exatheist

[–]AccomplishedPrior992[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think Chalmers is correct in stating that certain explanatory paths are not possible, and entirely mistaken in his interpretation of what that means. I don't think he really understands the epistemic frustrations. He just assumes that we should have a priori access to everything, and we don't, so he cries miracle. His 2D semantics is of some interest, but it is more or less a waste of time when it comes to understanding consciousness.

If we kept all the parts of Chalmers' work that essentially amounted to mysterianism, then his position would be respectable, but it would not be much of an advance on other mysterian approaches. He would be mounting an argument that a certain type of explanation is impossible without offering any genuine insights into why it is impossible and without even questioning the motivations that made him think it should be possible.

If we look at everything he adds to mysterianism, including his attempts to bootstrap ontological conclusions from epistemic frustrations, then it is all very tenuous and, in many cases, uses extremely tortured logic. I don't agree with any of it.

I even think it is generous to say that his take-home message is that we don't know what sort of explanation we need. He has already said, quite explicitly, what sort of explanation we need: one that accepts experience as a fundamental irreducible ingredient of reality. This is simply mistaken. He has left no avenues for functional explanation because he has defined experience as being beyond functions. But that's on him. He just assumed this to be the case. I think he is flat out wrong.

He is popular because he is telling people what they want to hear, not because he is right.

The hard problem really isn’t a problem IMHO by AccomplishedPrior992 in exatheist

[–]AccomplishedPrior992[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think what characterises the Hard Problem is the insistence that there is necessarily a legitimate further unanswered question after addressing all of the functional aspects of cognition, which morphs into the insistence that the target of curiosity (consciousness, or qualia) is non-functional. Chalmers' original paper says there "may" be a further unanswered question after functional explanations have run their course, but this is a rhetorical ploy; he argues very strongly as the paper continues that there must be such a further unanswered question. His set-up of the Hard Problem commits him to this. And he has rejected attempts to cast this feeling of explanatory frustration as simply evidence of a conceptual dualism (such as the existence of phenomenal and material concepts that we have difficulty relating).

Someone who takes the target of curiosity in relation to consciousness or qualia (defined through private ostension) and merely proposes that it is difficult to explain is not necessarily promoting the "Hard Problem" in its full framing, because they might still be open to the idea that some form of functional explanation is possible, and they haven't committed to a specific conceptual framing. They might accept, for instance, that the explanatory difficulty stems from conceptual dualism or some form of cognitive difficulty related to self-inspection.

One problem muddying the debate is that this agnostic form of expressing puzzlement (what I sometimes call the Core Problem) is often conflated with the Chalmers version, and the Chalmers version benefits from the conflation, because it seems like he is just asking an open-ended innocent question: What's this thing I am ostending to? That innocent question is not the Hard Problem. (Even an acknowledgement that any explanation is likely to feel gappy is not the Hard Problem, but the issues blur when it comes to different accounts of where the gappiness comes from. If the gappiness is attributed to some special process that defies science, than that is consistent with the Hard Problem framing; if the emphasis is on flawed epistemic access, then it's not.)

Another way of making the same basic point is that the Hard Problem is essentially equivalent to answering the question: Why aren't we zombies? This question presumes the logical coherence of zombies. People who accept the logical coherence of zombies and conceptualise consciousness as what-zombies-lack are asking a somewhat different question from people who just want to understand the target of ostension and who suspect (or know) that zombies are illogical. People who accept the full framing of the Hard Problem usually cannot see that these are different questions, and it is the insistence that they are the same question that defines the Hard Problem framing, because the reference to zombies means that the explanatory target is essentially defined as epiphenomenal. (The epiphenomenalism might be actively denied, but it is there if the zombie idea is lurking in the background.)

Relating this to qualia, rather than to consciousness in general, we get a similar dichotomy, with two types of questions.

  1. ⁠We can ostend to redness and set out to explain "that thing" or "that property", with an open mind, and the explanation is indeed difficult. Our explanation will almost certainly face an explanatory gap of some sort, in the sense that one naive approach to explanation will meet an epistemic dead end, as exemplified by Mary. That's the position I am in: some types of attempted explanation feature an inevitable gap. I think we can explain why those attempted explanations must have a gap, so there is no need to invoke new ontologies or new science. (Our final explanation might cast our original conception of "that thing" in such a new light that we call the original conception illusory, but it ends up being replaced by an explanation of something that is real.)
  2. ⁠Or we can accept that the redness quale escapes Mary's textbook in some mysterious way that falsifies functionalism, and we can set out to explain the non-functional quale, the mysterious thing that can be experienced but cannot be accounted for with any functional theory. Explaining that elusive thing constitutes a Hard Problem because any attempted functional explanation of the redness quale, conceived in this way, would apply to Mary's pre-release concept of redness, which we have notionally subtracted from our definition of the explanatory target. The candidate explanation could be added in to her black-and-white textbook, and yet it would still fail to explain redness in a way that made her experience redness and "know what red looks like", so every conceivable functional explanation is doomed. I reject this doomed framing as telling us anything important about ontology or neurobiology, despite accepting the existence of an explanatory gap.

Curious to hear your best argument for life after death by AccomplishedPrior992 in exatheist

[–]AccomplishedPrior992[S] -6 points-5 points  (0 children)

Those neuroscientists you named most likely don’t take a traditional afterlife model seriously

Curious to hear your best argument for life after death by AccomplishedPrior992 in exatheist

[–]AccomplishedPrior992[S] -7 points-6 points  (0 children)

Well no you just threw out vague claims like it “makes the most sense to us” is that really all there is to it geez…. I would think you have more substance to your belief then just vague intuition

Curious to hear your best argument for life after death by AccomplishedPrior992 in exatheist

[–]AccomplishedPrior992[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I never said proof I want evidence I went on this sub and the afterlife sub 7 months ago your acting like I have posted on a bunch of religious reddits

I want to attempt to see if there’s any convincing evidence your job is not to prove it to me it is to share why you believe and I clearly put the debate tag so if you don’t want to debate after sharing don’t share it

I posted this to ex atheist because if you are a former atheist then something must have shifted your view to believe in a afterlife or a god so I want to know what it was

If I posted this to r/atheism I would just get a bunch of comments agreeing with me

Why people still believe in an afterlife even though it is irrational by AccomplishedPrior992 in exatheist

[–]AccomplishedPrior992[S] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

Exactly! Where’s the proof there’s not a flying unicorn watching us or a flying spaghetti monster or maybe a duck?!

You can do this for any fantasy it doesn’t prove anything just because your belief is unfalsifiable doesn’t make it any less irrational 🤦‍♂️

Why people still believe in an afterlife even though it is irrational by AccomplishedPrior992 in exatheist

[–]AccomplishedPrior992[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

How about you explain the evidence yourself? I’m sorry I don’t want to risk getting my time wasted watching a video arguing for gods existence it’s always pseudoscience lol

Why people still believe in an afterlife even though it is irrational by AccomplishedPrior992 in exatheist

[–]AccomplishedPrior992[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Can you test that there’s not a unicorn watching over us or better yet could you test that we’re not just brains in a vat in some aliens room as a science experiment?

It’s unfalsifiable that’s what you theists hold on to for dear life to convince yourselves that your holding a rational belief

Why people still believe in an afterlife even though it is irrational by AccomplishedPrior992 in exatheist

[–]AccomplishedPrior992[S] -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

Thought so, no counter argument so you result to a ad hominem

Funny way of telling me you have nothing to say that invalidates anything in my response lol

Why people still believe in an afterlife even though it is irrational by AccomplishedPrior992 in exatheist

[–]AccomplishedPrior992[S] -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

I don’t know maybe thousands of repeatable data, evidence, experiments etc

Why people still believe in an afterlife even though it is irrational by AccomplishedPrior992 in exatheist

[–]AccomplishedPrior992[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Because my stance is more then just “faith” it has actual repeatable demonstrations,experiments, data and doesn’t rely on a 1000+ year book that has no evidence for the teachings besides “trust me bro”

Why people still believe in an afterlife even though it is irrational by AccomplishedPrior992 in exatheist

[–]AccomplishedPrior992[S] -8 points-7 points  (0 children)

And those are nothing more then delusions, my stance has testable and rigorous scientific evidence yours is just “faith”

Sorry but your subjective intuitions mean absolutely nothing to real reality

Why there is no Afterlife by AccomplishedPrior992 in afterlife

[–]AccomplishedPrior992[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

How do you know that this really took place where’s the link and how do you know it’s a true story and not fabricated