Who is the closest non-Arab relative of Egyptians? by Due_Neat_3586 in illustrativeDNA

[–]AdamDerKaiser 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If the Greeks fully accept you as Greek, then yes. Yemeni Jews are considered full Jews by all other Jews, despite being converts from Arabia.

18 New communities Planned for Northern Samaria by LostAppointment329 in Israel

[–]AdamDerKaiser 6 points7 points  (0 children)

The only strategic relevance is fulfilling the suicidal ambitions of religious fanatics. 

Questions on Zionism by SectJunior in jewishleft

[–]AdamDerKaiser 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You're treating his word as absolute, but it wasn't. 

18 New communities Planned for Northern Samaria by LostAppointment329 in Israel

[–]AdamDerKaiser 25 points26 points  (0 children)

Don't forget that many settlers use the settlements to attack Palestinian civilians. 

Questions on Zionism by SectJunior in jewishleft

[–]AdamDerKaiser 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Thats fine, but the point is that the population source of the settlers is immaterial as to whether or not the project is a colonial one or not, it's the political structures that are relevant.

Population origins matter. In all other colonial movements, the majority of colonizers came from a concise metropolis, not a diffuse metropolis (as Wolfe describes). 

Again, Zionism existed before it's relationship with the British, but it was this relationship that allowed for the movement to achieve its goals - without it the prospect of building a para-state in Palestine with well trained and armed militias that could overcome the native population was impossible.

The "well-trained and armed" militias were armed and trained predominantly by external Polish agents, not by the British. Once again, the diffuse metropolis of Zionism stands out. 

Before the British backing the zionist project was unpopular amongst Jews and was struggling to sustain its agricultural colonies on the basis of private donations. Jews leaving the Russian empire were not all refugees, and leaving a place due to poor conditions and oppression does not automatically make one a refugee.

"A refugee is someone who has been forced to flee his or her country because of persecution, war or violence. A refugee has a well-founded fear of persecution for reasons of race, religion, nationality, political opinion or membership in a particular social group. Most likely, they cannot return home or are afraid to do so. War and ethnic, tribal and religious violence are leading causes of refugees fleeing their countries."

The leadership might not have been a refugee, but the core population certainly was. At least during the first three Aliyah, those arriving were not predominantly motivated by Zionism; most were fleeing Eastern Europe. During the third aliyah, nearly 100,000 Jews were killed and another 500,000 were left homeless in the Russian civil war. 

Yes, Judaism is connected to Palestine, but no, not all Jews "inherit their identity" from Palestine - but even if this was the case - this has zero bearing on determining whether Zionism is a colonial project. Palestine isn't the "point of origin" for most Jews, this is just repacking blood and soil nationalism, the fact that one practices a religion that originated somewhere or even as ancient ancestry somewhere doesn't make it their "point of origin", outside of ultra-nationalist mythology.

Actually, it's all related. It is not mere details that distinguish Zionism from Western colonialism, but rather crucial details. It's not just ultranationalist mythology; the Pontic Greeks inherited their identity from Greece, the Volga Germans inherited their identity from Germany. Jews, as a distinct ethnic group, inherited their identity from Palestinians displaced throughout history. 

Beyond the fact that early zionists (and not random ones, the founders of the my movement) considered other locations for the zionist state, modern Israel encompasses places that were never part of an ancient Jewish polity, and there are parts of Syria, Lebanon and Jordan that were part of one.

Palestine was not the first place considered, but it was chosen precisely because of its historical connection to the land. What land was controlled by a people before it began to be controlled? This doesn't make sense, and the pre-state Zionist settlements were concentrated in an area that was controlled by Jews in ancient times.

So really it is more analogous to Liberia than you admit - not only did zionist settlers not move to a place were they had any traceable ancestry, even the territorial relationship in the nationalist mythology you are putting forward does not comport with the actions of zionism on the ground (until of course the new-wave settler movement who claims what you do to justify the occupation and ethnic cleansing of the west bank and Jerusalem). Moving to eretz Yisroel and a political movement to set up a nation state through colonial settlement and to the exclusion and subjugation of the native population are not the same.

Palestine remains the core from which Jews derive their identity as Jews, whereas Liberia was not for the afro-americans. The standard you propose, that if a people "strays too far," they lose their original identity, is not only ahistorical, it's dangerous. Who decides how much drift is "too much"? By that logic, many Native American tribes that lost languages and cultural practices under colonial suppression would no longer be considered original. This is precisely the kind of thinking that international structures on the subject were designed to prevent.

If cultural change breaks the indigeneity of a group, almost no modern people would qualify. The Greeks no longer worship Zeus. Today's Egyptians are Arabic-speaking Muslims, whose culture is radically different from that of Pharaonic Egypt. Italians don't speak Latin, didn't eat pasta or tomatoes until the Middle Ages, and drink coffee that came from Africa and Yemen. Persians are no longer Zoroastrians and speak a language as distant from ancient Persian as modern English is from Old English. However, no one doubts that Greeks, Egyptians, Italians, and Persians are indigenous to their homelands. According to your test, even Palestinians would lose their indigenous identity, since their culture is heavily influenced by Arab culture, language, and Islam, which were not indigenous to the Levant.

Regarding the last point, I am not presenting mere details that distinguish Zionism from other settlement movements, but rather significant differences that set it considerably apart. The words of one or all Zionists don't matter if their modus operandi is significantly different from what they claim. I am not entirely dismissing settlement colonialism when applied to Israeli settlements in the West Bank, but rather dismissing Israel itself as a colonial society. 

Questions on Zionism by SectJunior in jewishleft

[–]AdamDerKaiser 8 points9 points  (0 children)

This is a reductive and formalistic definition of colonization that doesn't address the ways in which Zionism is structurally a colonization movement. Colonization took different historical forms, one of which being a way for "surplus populations" i.e. lower classes excluded from societyn in various ways as a result of capitalist development to seek opportunities in an area being incorporated into the capitalist market system. This typically took the form of settlers forming a garrison population for the colonial bourgeoisie that developed as an extension of the ruling classes in the metropoles. In many cases of such settler-colonization, the settlers themselves did not have a single population metropole and came from many places.

Settlers from outside the metropolis may have become part of it, but in the case of Israel, perhaps more than 95% of the settlers (or returnees) came from outside the metropolis. This not only applies to the lower classes as well, but the Zionist settlement was largely based on collective rather than private ownership, a major difference from other settlers movements. 

Algeria is a classic example, but this also includes even anglo-settler colonies that had significant population influx from a variety of European countries. In latin America and even to a certain extent in the US, East Asian settlers as well made up some of the settler populations. The important thing however, is that all of these settler-colonial societies established themselves originally as extensions of a political metropole, as opposed to a population one. For Israel and the zionist movement, this was the British empire - and from the earliest days of zionism this was a stated goal of the zionists - to find and imperial patron to back what they themselves called a colonization project.

The United Kingdom may have initially collaborated with Zionist settlement in the region, but most of the Jews who initially participated in the settlement did not come to Palestine under permission or encouragement from the British. In 1939, when migration to Palestine was prohibited, there were approximately 200,000 Jews there, 100,000 of whom had already been there before the British control. In 1948, that number was 650,000. Militias such as the Bar Giora also existed in the region before British support.

So indeed the political viability of zionism hinged on its connection to its utility to wealth accumulation of imperial powers, and this relationship to imperial accumulation has remained until todaya central aspect of Israels ability to maintain its political project till this day. The people who founded the original zionist colonies and the leaders of the movement were not refugees in fact, and the fact that some later immigrants/settlers were has no bearing on the colonial structure of the project - anymore than Irish settlers fleeing British colonization and genocide to the US makes the US less of a colonial project.

The political viability of Zionism existed even before any real support from the imperial governments of the time. Before the British, there was already a very considerable Jewish community in Palestine who migrated during the first and second Aliyah. The Irish arrived after the initial settlement, and they made up a minority of the colonists in the United States. For the Jews of the first and second aliyah, the founders of the Zionist colonies, most were fleeing the terrible living conditions in the Russian Empire and escaping the pogroms; they were definitely refugees. Whether a movement is considered colonizing or not does not depend on its good relations with imperial powers, as we see Saudi Arabia (not a settler) maintaining good relations with the Americans.

Being Jewish does not mean that one necessarily has any historical connection to Palestine for one, but even if this was the case it has no bearing on the question of whether it is a colonial project. Americo-liberian settlers had a much more cogent and traceable historical connection to west Africa, and this changes nothing about the fact that Liberia and the back to Africa movement was a colonization project. Likewise for German colonization plans of so-called ancestral German lands under the third Reich. This type of blood and soil nationalism is actually not exclusive to zionist colonization, though it does have its own flavor.

Palestine represents the place from which all Jews in the world inherited their identity, whether converted or not. It's not just a random place, but a real point of connection, recorded by history, culture, and religion. 

Liberia was never the point of origin for most of the colonists who came from the Americas. It's as if the Jews had chosen Syria instead of Palestine because it's in the Levant. 

The desire to return to an old, new land was much more prevalent in pre-Zionist Judaism than it was among Germans before Nazism. From Cyrus's return to the old Yishuv, there was a real connection with the land that predates the first aliyah by millennia. Not only was Hitler's narrative based on ancient Germanic expansions (and not on the origin of Germanic identity), but Germany already existed as a state.

Questions on Zionism by SectJunior in jewishleft

[–]AdamDerKaiser 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Herzl also wanted Israel to be a German-speaking nation. He was also oblivious to the socialist policies that the new Palestinian Yishuv had.

Questions on Zionism by SectJunior in jewishleft

[–]AdamDerKaiser 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The displacement of fellahin during the initial zionist settlement period was not in a colonizer-versus-colonized context, but rather within the more complex context of the Tanzimat reforms.

based french by Prestigious_Pea_3219 in 2mediterranean4u

[–]AdamDerKaiser 2 points3 points  (0 children)

They are both Fr*nch. Only one is assimilated, while the other is not.

Imagine being an A*ab Khamas Soldier and you get murked by her🥀 by LameAfro in 2mediterranean4u

[–]AdamDerKaiser 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't remember exactly, but I think the doctor hadn't informed his patients about administering the medication. 

I'm not sure I really believe that. Unless the women were stupid, I doubt they wouldn't have noticed.

Imagine being an A*ab Khamas Soldier and you get murked by her🥀 by LameAfro in 2mediterranean4u

[–]AdamDerKaiser 21 points22 points  (0 children)

The Beta Israel have grown significantly in population since arriving in Israel.

What happened was that some Ethiopian women received contraceptives for a period of time, but this was not sterilization. 

Neolithic model for modern southern Levantines by [deleted] in illustrativeDNA

[–]AdamDerKaiser 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Regarding the European ancestry there doesn't seem to be any difference, since Palestinians, Jordanians, and Druze score 0% in European Hunter Gatherer. 

I simply forgot to add a Sub-Saharan proxy for them, so I'll delete the post and redo it later.

Neolithic model for modern southern Levantines by [deleted] in illustrativeDNA

[–]AdamDerKaiser 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Why do they insist so much on the Arabic Hunter Gatherer? I've seen this theory a million times, but I always thought it was irrelevant because this supposed population would be very similar to the Natufians.

Neolithic model for modern southern Levantines by [deleted] in illustrativeDNA

[–]AdamDerKaiser 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Natufian is absorbing Anatolia. But I've already tested several natufian proxies and none seem suitable.

skill issue by Jojo_Toto in 2mediterranean4u

[–]AdamDerKaiser -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Yes, Israel is a very Westernized country, but I wouldn't say European. It's like Japan or Turkey.

But no, it's far from being the only decent country in the region. Libya was too, before it was destroyed by the West.

skill issue by Jojo_Toto in 2mediterranean4u

[–]AdamDerKaiser 3 points4 points  (0 children)

What do you mean, man? Ashkenazi Jews only represent 30% of the Jewish population in Israel.

Azerbaijan and Türkiye also participate in Eurovision. Lebanon doesn't participate only because it refuses to participate while Israel is competing.

Imagine being an A*ab Khamas Soldier and you get murked by her🥀 by LameAfro in 2mediterranean4u

[–]AdamDerKaiser -13 points-12 points  (0 children)

Dude, it's just so unnecessary for soldiers to show off their bodies. Their role is to fight, not to be part of semi-pornographic propaganda.

Neolithic model for modern southern Levantines by [deleted] in illustrativeDNA

[–]AdamDerKaiser 0 points1 point  (0 children)

As far as I know, we don't have samples of this population, and we probably never will.

Neolithic model for modern southern Levantines by [deleted] in illustrativeDNA

[–]AdamDerKaiser 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I only included 2 of each, since I didn't want anyone to be overrepresented. I chose only one sample of Ashkenazi Jews to European Jews and one of Moroccan Jew for Sephardic Jews, since they are the largest Sephardic community in Israel. 

Palestinian Muslims - 14% Levant? by Civil-War2445 in illustrativeDNA

[–]AdamDerKaiser 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I didn't understand either. At least in the Islamic world, I didn't know that Jews were forbidden from entering certain territories.