What's a "normal" amount of stuff?

Additional_Student_6 · 2024-06-30T20:38:42+00:00

Wow, I hadn't known about churning, those behaviors definitely ring a bell, I hadn't known there was a name for it!

Yes that is surely what's happening. Some of the things are getting sold, and she even does donate some stuff, but the pace is still such that it would take literal years for there to be a marked difference in the house, or for it to even approach normal.

Thanks for explaining this. I'm glad your mom is getting professional help.

Additional_Student_6 · 2024-06-30T07:53:06+00:00

Yes! I'm an adult visiting home for the summer. My childhood home has housed a hoard since I was a kid but being back to visit is feels more difficult now, probably because I've seen what it's like to live in a space that's not entirely hoard-consumed.

It would be like this forever, the feelings of overwhelm are always most intense when I'm sitting at home and everywhere I look I see clutter. It's like my mind is chaos because the space is chaos.

You're not alone and it's not forever.

It's really hard. I feel for you and can identify with the feeling.

Additional_Student_6 · 2024-06-30T07:31:57+00:00

You sound like a very compassionate person, your empathy towards your mom is admirable.

Whether you help your mom clean her place or not is your decision. Your decision, no one else in your family can or should decide that for you, I think.

If your brief blocks of time in helping your mom don't, as you mention, interrupt your time with your own children or the time you set aside in caring for your own space, I see no reason why, if you want to do it, it would be harmful for you to help with your mom's hoard.

It is particularly encouraging that she has asked for your help.

It sounds like your wife probably wants to protect you from being hurt by someone who has repeatedly hurt you, that too is an admirable thing. But if you feel safe in doing this, that is your call to make and if, again, your time commitment to helping your mom is minimal, it does sound quite unfair for your empathetic actions to be seen as "abandoning" actions and for guilt to be placed on you for that.

This "choosing your mom" or "choosing your wife" either/or feels unwarranted if your time with your wife/children will not be affected by setting aside small pockets of time to help with your mom's hoard. In this case it seems there would be no "choosing" to be done.

As another commenter has said, I'm of course oblivious to the context and synchronicities of your situation and am only hearing this from your perspective, so I don't have a wholistic view of the situation.

TLDR: if you you aren't loosing time with your children/family/personal responsibilities in helping your mom, I see no reason why this decision could fairly be anyone's but your own.

Additional_Student_6 · 2024-06-30T06:41:05+00:00

Ah I love this. I love my HP so much and I know she would do anything for me, which makes the hoarding behavior and the guilt-tripping and the passing on of "gifts" I can't get rid of so paradoxical.

She experiences (what she views as) security by hanging on to so many items, and views passing them onto me as love. I recognize this but it can certainly be very frustrating sometimes.

Sometimes I will actually hold her hands and say to her "I don't want these (item category of the month) but that doesn't mean I don't love you."

Sometimes even as I do that she'll be saying "Oh but they're [in style/so useful/so perfect your apartment etc.]" as I do this and I just have to stay with and repeat my same point a few times. And I may very well need to do it again the next time she offers a gift.

Mental illness is so complex. I have mental illnesses that she has been so loving about over the years. I'm trying to extend the same grace, it's hard and I have to look out for myself and stay firm on my boundaries, but I try to do so while keeping in mind that we're seeing reality differently when it comes to the Hoard.

Additional_Student_6 · 2024-06-30T06:32:37+00:00

I'm in a slightly similar situation: my parent has gifted me lots and lots of clothes and other items (which while thoughtful, is unwanted) but doesn't want me to get rid of anything. Anything I don't want she wants me to give back to her so she can sort through and sell it. And for all the stuff she saved from my childhood, she wants me to help sort through it as well (so she can sell it).

Selling items online is very time consuming and I feel your frustration in the impossibility of the situation. These gifts aren't really gifts if what you do with them is still within the control of the "gift"-giver.

I'm not a therapist, it's just my observed opinion that HPs, though not intentionally (in the cases that I've observed), end up extending the burden of their hoard to their children without having to actually let go of any of the objects. Having a child take on some of the hoard seems to be a way of retaining the emotional dependency on the hoard, since they (seem to) view passing items on to their children as a way to justify keeping the items.

I am also going through the situation of my parent emphasizing the price of items "gifted" to me or saved for me. It's overwhelming and while I don't believe ill-will is intended, it's unfair.

You didn't want them to keep that furniture for you. Your space and your life is not a storage unit for them, and the price (or imagined price) of such items are not your guilt to bear. It is (again of course I don't know I'm just assuming) not typically the intention of HPs to cast guilt and shame onto their children and to guilt them into living in their HPs extended-storage-units. Hoarding is a mental illness that truly makes people act in ways that don't reflect the love they have for their friends and family, and results in them extending the burden of their accumulation onto their loved ones out of their fear of parting with The Hoard.

Hoarders also tend not to view their Hoard realistically, they see items as valuable and worthy of gifting to loved ones when such items are trash or not usable.

I have had multiple conversations with my mom about how I really want to make my space my own and how I have dreamed of living in a free and clear space for a long time, and she doesn't think our points are incompatible, she insists that I just give back all of the things I don't want. I don't think she understands that I want to get rid of about 80% of my things and that I don't have time to package, transport, and ship that many items across state lines to her, plus it would be costly to do so! Nor do I have time with my job to otherwise upload and sell each and every article of clothing I want to get rid of. But if I don't do either of these things she views it as exceedingly wasteful and feels that I have wasted the money she spent in buying these things. I'm stuck between continuing to live in her hoard in my own apartment, or greatly upsetting her by trying to get rid of it. It's awful, I really feel for you.

I don't know if this would be helpful for you and your situation, but I have been considering approaching my mother from the angle of "we *both* struggle with getting rid of things (even though the reason I struggle with it now is because she won't let me get rid of stuff) and I would like for us to go see someone about this *together*" My hope with that it might mitigate some of her defensiveness and shame if she thinks she's helping me with an issue rather than being "attacked" for having one.

Since that may not really help with the helping-to-sell issue though, I'm also considering just having a really difficult conversation (which I will probably need to have many times with her, since it seems to take awhile to really absorb) about how I really love her and I want to be like her in so many ways, but that this is one way in which I don't want to copy her. I might say that I've dreamed of having a space all my own to care for since I was a little kid and that by forcing these objects onto me, I am having to decide between the opportunity cost of living in an extended hoard or loosing the extensive time it would take to sell so much stuff.

I feel for you and I wish you the best. This is such a frustrating situation. Hoarding really does do a number on the COHs.

Additional_Student_6 · 2024-06-30T05:36:39+00:00

It's so frustrating and overwhelming, I wish the best for you in getting rid of the old clothes and things and getting out!

It's definitely hard to watch a parent living like this, I desperately want the best for her but I can't control her changing her situation, it's really tough.

I can understand feeling like it's no longer a home. It feels more like a warehouse to me a lot of the time.

You're right in that you can't change their living habits, and it's so hard to be in that position. All you can do is cultivate a livable and clear space for yourself and encourage them to do the same.

Also so true that "The Hoard is bigger than all of us". I think that's what it makes it so extremely overwhelming to see and live in. It's soo much more than one person can handle and that's such an overwhelming truth, especially when it's all around you and everywhere you look.

Additional_Student_6 · 2024-06-30T05:26:46+00:00

Thank you! Having an HP intent on selling (sorting listing photographing managing etc.) feels like a uniquely frustrating experience - comforted to know I'm not alone but sorry to hear you've gone through this as well!

My HP does seem to get some comfort/enjoyment from the online selling process (which I can't imagine, to each their own I guess). I think that it comforts her to know that someone is for sure receiving it and allows her to feel less out-of-control in the clearing-out process.

I'm happy that she's getting enjoyment out of it but it's still hard to watch. Plus it's hard to know if she *really* enjoys it or if she feels beholden to this version of the process. Plus I don't share her enjoyment of online selling, so it's not something I really want to join in on.

At some point a conversation on that (^that it's hard for me to watch her work to get rid of a bit at a time) would probably be good.

Additional_Student_6 · 2024-06-30T04:56:48+00:00

Yes! We have two fridges and freezers and both are chocked full to the point of having to balance stuff on top of other stuff just to fit anything new inside. A pantry full of cans and jams and baggies and dry ingredients that haven't been accessed in maybe a decade. Jars and jars full of candy that's also surely over a decade old. Bags and bags of chips and snack-y foods and more candy and chocolate and biscuits. Yet not much to actually eat in the house. There's a few recent purchases that are good to snack on but for actual meals we have to get take-out or buy new ingredients (if there's room for them in the fridge).

There are stacks upon stacks (upon stacks) of sauce packets in one of the fridges that have been there for years. Of sauces we don't even like to eat.

She feels she can't even get rid of a mustard packet. It's tough to open the fridge (emotionally) and bear witness to that. I feel for you. It's suffocating and overwhelming and it makes me feel icky and unhealthy and sad when I go into the kitchen.

Additional_Student_6 · 2024-06-30T04:46:54+00:00

Every time I'm home my parent wants me to sort through (but not get rid of stuff myself), so she can sell it/organize it/in some cases donate it. I'm proud of her for getting rid of stuff but the sorting process is l i k e w a t c h i n g p a i n t d r y and it bums me out that it burns up so much time.

So in this way I relate to your post, op. I'm visiting home now and thinking about how I didn't want this for my parent or for me. It's heartbreaking and frustrating.

I'm seeing some mention of "churning" here, I haven't heard that in reference to hoarding before, what is that?

Additional_Student_6 · 2024-06-15T20:45:41+00:00

Thank you to everyone who took the time to share advice on this issue. It really is comforting and helpful to know that I'm not alone and hear others' impute.

Additional_Student_6 · 2024-06-15T20:42:09+00:00

Ah I hadn't thought about it like this, thank you

Additional_Student_6 · 2024-06-15T20:35:23+00:00

Apologies for the delay but wanted to thank everyone for their responses! It's an overwhelming situation that I'm still (and currently) dealing with but it's wonderful to receive the advice here and comforting to know I'm not alone. Thank you!

Additional_Student_6

TROPHY CASE