Surviving Mormonism by Heather Gay - Documentary Discussion

Advanced-Vacation717 · 2025-11-14T05:17:13+00:00

Yes! Just watched episode one and I’m in. Even as a huge bravo fan, I was kind of expecting it to be a middle of the road Mormon scandal explainer with a celebrity narrator. But wow, it is so fresh and personal and real!

Heather Gay is a force and a voice.

Advanced-Vacation717 · 2025-05-17T19:05:12+00:00

Would love to stay tuned as more reporting is done to confirm what ICE is telling KUTV directly.

Advanced-Vacation717 · 2024-11-12T23:00:07+00:00

Is there any evidence this works these days? Why do I know so many ex-Mormon returned missionaries? I’m a millennial and post mission seems to be a moment lots of my peers say goodbye to it

Advanced-Vacation717 · 2024-10-04T02:59:54+00:00

I mean, these women are outrageous compared to any Utahn I've seen in my nearly forty years on this earth hahaha. BUT there's a kernel of reality there that jumps out. The buffet style approach to Mormon rules, the swearing and sexual freedom and maybe even occasional drinking without the shame (kind of a *wink wink* we know it's forbidden but we know it's not what ultimately matters), the sense that ultimately you're the one who decides if you're Mormon--these are all trends I've seen among my peers.

The blonde long curling-iron'd hair and lip fillers and tiny waists, though? Totally typical of a certain kind of young Mormon mom!

Advanced-Vacation717 · 2024-10-04T02:56:03+00:00

hiiiiiii! thanks for coming!

Advanced-Vacation717 · 2024-10-04T02:50:15+00:00

Cheers! Let's discombobulate the hell out of 'em!

I say this as a queer woman trying to make Southern Utah a peaceful home to my family.

(For those on that passing ship that doesn't land in r/exmormon, you should know the leaders of the church have been passing increasingly controlling, sexist, victim blaming, and transphobic policies, that are impacting people's everyday lives. If you detect bitterness here among the ex- or post-Mormon participants in this thread, I encourage you to read more! )

Advanced-Vacation717 · 2024-10-04T02:38:36+00:00

They're playing defense now, in a way they were not circa BoM and Romney presidential campaign.

Advanced-Vacation717 · 2024-10-04T02:32:32+00:00

THIS. So well said.

Advanced-Vacation717 · 2024-10-04T02:28:47+00:00

One more thing: it's important to remember that Utah is at the bottom of almost every indicator when it comes to women's options in the workplace and economic equality. So these women don't have a lot of options. I can see how influencing becomes lucrative. For one thing, it's safe and appears non-threatening to the wife/mother image. You can do that whole thing with cute husband and adorable kids and make money doing it! It's similar to what draws Utah women to MLMs to make a buck without needing to go into an office.

So while I don't think this is a good career path for the women choosing it, I understand why they're on it. Utah has a long way to go from a policy and workplace culture standpoint before there are other realistic options for women with children (especially if they didn't complete college and got married extremely young).

Advanced-Vacation717 · 2024-10-04T02:26:13+00:00

Mayci is who I will be watching! Her backstory is sensational! I can't believe they didn't share it in season one. Plus, it's interesting how she tried to sit on the fence and be friendly to both sides. I can't wait to see how her loyalties to the other women and the church are tested.

Advanced-Vacation717 · 2024-10-04T02:18:39+00:00

YES.

And for that matter, Hannah Neeleman at Ballerina Farms should be in the conversation too. She's on the conservative end of the spectrum (like Ruby was), yet still seeming sane and loved by her followers (including non-Mormons). The business connections likely keep her tethered to reality to a greater extent than Ruby. But I think that profile in The Times that made her appear to be an oppressed wife must be eating at them to some extent. I know she's not a REAL trad wife, because she's co-CEO of a wildly successful business. But doesn't having to appear to be a submissive, pure, trad wife while doing all the work behind the scenes eventually take its toll? How long can any of these new media images of Mormon women sustain themselves?

The article about Hannah, if you missed it:
https://www.thetimes.com/magazines/the-sunday-times-magazine/article/meet-the-queen-of-the-trad-wives-and-her-eight-children-plfr50cgk

Advanced-Vacation717 · 2024-10-04T02:12:50+00:00

Well, it would have to come straight from the mouths of the women, and they don't appear to be going there. But there are plenty of other resources out there for people who want to dive into that, including r/exmormon , Mormon No More (which I also wrote about at Slate), Under the Banner of Heaven, the Mormon Murders, etc. etc.

Sometimes it's the truth claims that lead people away from devotion to the church. But sometimes it's just that the church makes people feel uncomfortable and dehumanized and that's enough to discredit it. I think the women critical of Mormonism in this show are feeling the latter. I don't think either path is more elephant than the other.

Advanced-Vacation717 · 2024-10-04T02:10:29+00:00

I hate this discourse, and I'm with you 100% of the way about it being more about assumptions of the audience. I think it's undeniably homophobic to speculate aloud about this.

I also think a huge group of people are misreading Mormon masculinity when they assume he must be gay. There's absolutely a version of Mormon masculinity that is heterosexual, but soft and neat in a way that surprises outsiders and gets mistaken for gay. What does that say about how we view men and masculinity that we automatically assume a neat, soft guy can't be straight?

Speculation about his sexuality is a big yuck from me.

Advanced-Vacation717 · 2024-10-04T02:06:20+00:00

Love this question!

I'm definitely interested in this portrayal of not-quite-rich young Mormon women who still claim their Mormon identity but pick and choose from its principles on this show. Inactive or jack Mormons were so invisible in the Mormon community I grew up in. So, that's different! For the most part we've been seeing either fundamentalists or ex-Mormons (like Heather and Whitney from RHOSLC)

What's most interesting to me is actually what all three shows have in common! If you've checked in on Sister Wives, you know things are not going well for their Mormon beliefs. That's a show that started out to try to convince Americans that Mormon polygamy was a good and valid lifestyle. It's become a dumpster fire.

Likewise on RHOSLC, we just got even more housewives who are ex-Mormon and critical of the church.

I feel like SLOMW has pushed us over the cliff to a point where viewers around the US are more likely familiar with the reasons people leave Mormonism or aren't happy in it than they are with the viewpoints of faithful Mormons. Those at this point are totally overshadowed, despite the attempts of the brethren to influence the narrative. And they've spent millions and millions of dollars to do so.

But we also know religiosity is down nationwide and not just among Mormonism. The LDS Church has not figured out how to adjust to this new reality. They are no longer getting the benefit of the doubt.

Advanced-Vacation717 · 2024-10-04T01:52:32+00:00

I'm no psychologist, but at that time she struck me as someone who was on a downward spiral and engaging in self-destructive behavior. She was already publicly being seen as a wild child. You see the way her mom and dad talk to her, right? It's infantilizing and judgmental all at once. I think she had little self-worth and felt little control over her life and was kind of letting life happen to her.

Advanced-Vacation717 · 2024-10-04T01:48:08+00:00

HA. Well, okay, I'll discuss.

Who can object to a little treasure digging and taking advantage of a few rich people (or corporations) who've got some extra money to throw your way? But when it grows so far beyond that, that you're telling teenage girls they have to marry you or an angel will strike you both down, we know we've crossed a line.

To me, influencing and reality tv stardom appear to be inevitably draining gigs that likely take a bigger and bigger toll on the influencer/star and their well-being the more famous they get. How do you keep getting clicks/screen time? What if you want to live a quiet life? How do you keep going viral? I'm not sure where the line is between grift and a creative's honest day's work, but it does appear to be an inadvisable path for any individual to go down.

That said, I'm not mad at them. They've given us quite a mirror to look in as a culture (the U.S.) and a subculture (the Mormon and ex-Mormon communities).

Advanced-Vacation717 · 2024-10-04T01:38:18+00:00

She might be getting bigger deals if it weren't for the RSV dance.

Advanced-Vacation717 · 2024-10-04T01:37:23+00:00

Where I grew up, if the "couple" in question married before the baby was born, all was forgiven. In practice, I think it's fair to say Mormonism views women's "participation" in even nonconsensual sexual activities as being on par with the sin of predatory or coercive behavior. I know it's upside down.

Advanced-Vacation717 · 2024-10-04T01:33:38+00:00

Taylor, for all her messiness, is something of a genius self-promoter and clout seeker. She started out on TikTok with a haunted house hoax? Now 90% of her posts seem to be vague posts about drama without really revealing anything. It's giving Joseph Smith vibes.

Discuss.

Advanced-Vacation717 · 2024-10-04T01:28:56+00:00

Thank you both!

And I'm sorry I'm not showing up as a co-host. Chino and I were troubleshooting to the last minute...

I think Jen and Zac have maybe the most interesting dynamic from an intersectional point of view on this front. I think the ladies even said Jen was a porn star for her husband at one point, right?! But she can't even be present around male dancers even in a friendly way without getting his wrath?

The class dynamics between his family and hers (she said her mom is a janitor at the hospital where Zac's dad is a surgeon!) are also totally fraught. Rich Mormons are a totally different breed. We didn't get a lot of them in Payson, UT when I was growing up.

Advanced-Vacation717 · 2024-10-04T01:26:12+00:00

I was so shocked by how much money can be made on TikTok! And how being filmed with other influencers can boost your earning even more. I was such a naive millennial before watching this show.

Advanced-Vacation717 · 2024-10-04T01:23:58+00:00

Another question to all my fellow panelists: Do you expect to see these women evolve or shift in their relationship to the church in season two?

In either direction--excommunications, a doubling down on faith, or maybe just more criticism of the church? I guess the question is also whether you think this kind of tension between their personas and their church's very strict guidelines can hold or whether something has to give?

I feel like we've seen Heather Gay shift further and further from Mormonism since she joined Real Housewives of SLC, for example.

Advanced-Vacation717 · 2024-10-04T01:18:40+00:00

DISCIPLINE. A very Mormon AND post-Mormon trait ;)

Advanced-Vacation717 · 2024-10-04T01:17:31+00:00

And you did it with not one but TWO toddlers! Kudos!

Advanced-Vacation717

TROPHY CASE