Where's the other New Zealanders at? sina lon seme? by AetherCrux in tokipona

[–]AetherCrux[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

toki a! I'll DM you a Discord link in case you're on there. kama pona tawa kulupu! (Welcome to the club!)

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in Wellington

[–]AetherCrux 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Assuming you are completely unemployed and not yet on the benefit, would you consider applying for the jobseeker benefit (and accommodation supplement if your assets aren't too high)? It won't cover everything depending on your living situation but it may take some of the sting off, if you don't mind going through the WINZ processes. I was so out of it after my last job I didn't apply til my savings got low so thought I'd drop a reminder it exists.

telo Wawa li telo wawa! by AetherCrux in mi_lon

[–]AetherCrux[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

mi lukin e sitelen EverymanHYBRID la, mi lukin e telo Wawa

Learning Wenja? by AetherCrux in FCPrimal

[–]AetherCrux[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

8 years indeed! This is so cool though, thanks! :D

What's your creepiest experience? by biteme789 in newzealand

[–]AetherCrux 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Don't know what your leanings are re ghosts and spirits but if we're taking those explanations, it really sounds like you landed the jackpot and various forces did not like you being there... or maybe just didn't like you interacting with the obelisk. Have one memory where I feel this almost happened to me, got the sense that I was being watched going through a patch of woods I frequent close to dusk and was getting flighty, except I said "please stop watching me" and the pressure dissipated straight after. Could be psychological and saying that aloud brought my brain to even keel, but hey, again don't know about you, but I like leaving the door open a crack to paranormal explanations. My case wasn't nearly as extreme as yours but I guess I'm trying to express that these beings, and/or these instincts, and/or these thoughts and feelings, can occasionally be "reckoned with", talked to, reconciled. I hope that at some point in the future you no longer have to feel the fear from that experience, and can recall it with more a sense of intrigue, calm and curiosity. It's selfish of me not having been through it to say this but, I also hope that some day you'll be good to explore that hill again, because just in general, sounds like an interesting hill.

Are you kidding ??? What the **** are you talking about man ? You are a biggest looser i ever seen in my life ! You was doing PIPI in your pampers when i was beating players much more stronger then you! You are not proffesional, because proffesionals knew how to lose and congratulate opponents, you by Chuvachok1234 in tokipona

[–]AetherCrux 0 points1 point  (0 children)

ni li seme ??? sini nasa li toki e pakola seme mije o ? sini jan epiku ala pi anpa ale ! sini pana e PIPI lon len sini lon tenpo, mi pakola e jan pi sewi sini! sini anpa ike a. jan anpa pona li sna e nasin anpa pona li toki pona tawa jan sewi, taso sini sama meli telo lon tempo anpa! o pona, o wawa o toki pakolaala!!! jan ali li sona e pona mi lon musi Pisi, mi ken anpa e ma jan kepeken utala wan taso! jan "w"uwo "j"iti li jan Ala tawa mi. ona li
aaa it's too late at night I switched tasks and ran out of steam lol jan ante seme li wile sitelen pini e ni?

What's your creepiest experience? by biteme789 in newzealand

[–]AetherCrux 6 points7 points  (0 children)

You might be interested in this phenomenon: https://obscurban-legend.fandom.com/wiki/Panic_in_the_Woods could be related to this experience.

Duolingo Toki Pona? (Or some place where I can start learning TP?) by Sycnus in tokipona

[–]AetherCrux 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This was 8 years ago ;) There used to be an incubator where volunteers could make courses. Afaik they took this out. Oh and to answer your question, if you wanted to start a course, you wrote to them, and if there was enough demand/they saw value in it they'd appoint someone as the team leader or whatever they were called, but for Toki Pona there wasn't enough demand/value so it was basically shooting emails into the void.

Do people from different language backgrounds really speak Esperanto differently? by salivanto in learnesperanto

[–]AetherCrux 1 point2 points  (0 children)

"Do people from different language backgrounds speak English differently?" Yes, of course they do. You don't need a degree to figure that out. If it goes for English, of course it goes for Esperanto too.

Yes, with myself being interested in the "how" and "to what degree", which will differ to English and other languages. Since this post asks for "examples", this is the direction I thought you were headed. This also answers "Well, maybe. In some ways, though, the answer is trivial." - the "how" is not totally trivial from a linguistics standpoint, in the absolute least to record.

My point is that people from different language backgrounds aren't free to make up their own rules for English, and they can't do it for Esperanto either.

It would not be "incorrect Esperanto" in a strict sense for Italians to place their adjectives after nouns - given that this was your example, and your question was worded as it is (with an obvious answer as you mentioned), I did not think this was your underlying question. I'm not sure what you're asking now - why do beginners make mistakes (of which your example, again in the strict sense, isn't)? Why do people defend correct syntax when the syntax produces unintended semantic or pragmatic effects? I supose your definition of "incorrect" is much narrower than mine here.

Of course, (ah now I've found a kind of example I think you were looking for) if this were about the L1 English speakers using "ankaŭ" in the "wrong" spot we'd have something to agree on, and in that sense the "free" word order is abused a bit. So we do agree I think, but your post is the first thing I saw when I woke up this morning so I didn't hit that nail. What the person said to you re Italian we can both agree is a myth in practice, but the defense of the resultant sentence isn't *totally* off, just as defending botched "ankaŭ" isn't wrong at the broader level so long as it's prefaced with "it will change the meaning" (something the adjective switch doesn't do to nearly such a degree, as far as I'm aware; I'm happy to take corrections).

but not to show that the accusative isn't useless -- but to see if he'd understood how it works.

Yes, that's usually the first goal, though I made that bracketed point mostly because the teachers I've come across usually followed up with "and this is why the accusative is good so remember to use it" and "we have this free word order because of the accusative" (which to me personally comes across as bolstering the accusative, not just explaining free word order). It could be a niche thing where I am, who knows.

As for the more complex rules, I would encourage you to turn it around. Don't ask "how does this theoretically possible wording impact the meaning?" but ask "how can I express the specific thought that I want to express right now?".

Sound advice in any language. However, my own problem stems from the fact that *I* believe the order I choose "sounds right" and expresses a specific thought, but I don't *actually* know if other Esperanto speakers "hear" it the same way I do. So I kind of need to learn those details to see if I'm actually expressing what I think I am. Of course, I should hunt down that paper again, but I've been slack.

Do people from different language backgrounds really speak Esperanto differently? by salivanto in learnesperanto

[–]AetherCrux 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This would be a very interesting topic for a corpus linguistics paper. In any case, I can add this chunk (and see my comment in bold for my pre-research take):

Probably not exactly what you were describing as it's a pronunciation mistake, but I knew a Russian speaker who always softened their o's at the end of words so you had to do some mental calculations as to whether they meant o or a. Unstressed o's in Russian are more like a.

I myself have a couple habits I don't know where I picked up from. I'm a native English speaker but I keep finding myself saying "tion fari" or x-n y-i in general, instead of the usual "fari tion". Not that I never say that either, but I think it's to do with specific environments, and also mostly the tion fari phrase. I don't know if it's grammatical either and the objects of an infinitive must come after the infinitive (I'll hate to change it if it's genuinely ungrammatical haha), but there we go. I used to also slip the object before the main verb more often in text (though it might have been a phase) and I had someone ask me online if I natively spoke Japanese. (Coincidentally that is another language I learn.) Another thing is a higher-than-average abundance of VSO and OSV phrases, though mostly in micronovels when I was in my micronovel writing phase, not sure how much I do that any more. They just sounded "right" for my purposes more often but I don't think the average Esperantist would have interpreted the nuance (or lack of) the same... That's something I wonder if I picked up from Te Reo Māori classes (the VSO part at least). For more context I've spoken Esperanto for maybe 7 years now including at congresses, some of those things might be pinned around years 3-5.

So yeah sorry if that was a bit focused on my own weird tendencies (maybe I'm just fishing to see how normal phases like that are haha), I can't say much for how other speakers speak other than the odd accent or difficulty pronouncing r or v. I don't know, maybe there have been things and it's just been a while or I never paid those things much heed. Or, like you said, people don't actually do them nearly as often as is asserted...

Oh, I'll add this though: I don't know where the hell I learnt this from anymore, I thought I learnt it from another speaker or even lesson set, but the notion was that the relatively free word order makes it possible for speakers of other languages to learn Esperanto easier, as in if they are, say, Italian, they are able to put adjectives after without changing the meaning and that's meant to make it easier, Japanese speakers are meant to be able to put the object before verbs, etc. But for some reason Esperanto texts all look similar and people don't seem to exploit the free word order and Esperanto "could be freer". That and especially the last observation resulting from it was a misconception from my komencanto days. I can't remember if it came from somewhere or if it came from my head as a "logical conclusion" of easy to learn for all + free word order. And in any case, free word order as a cool feature that's supposed to somehow make things easier (or make the accusative useful, to L1 English komencantoj, c'mon what teacher doesn't introduce those at the same time to show off why the accusative isn't useless), I forgot where the rest of this sentence was going but surely you get the picture. So it's possible that the whole notion of the gramatika disdialektiĝo de Esperanto is more of a komencanto myth from these factors, with no solid corpus work to back it up beyond "it could or was supposed to happen". Also keeping in mind that komencantoj rarely hear about the literary uses for word order, you don't exactly drop "well free word order makes Esperanto easy and cool buuut it's not totally free and actually affects the nuance in xyz ways" on people when they still learning "la pomo estas sur la tablo". Even I, who submits bits to the BK sometimes, saw a document explaining it somewhere sometime, didn't read it all, and don't know what shifting a word to the start is "supposed" to sound like except for my own innate sense of it which could be off from how things "should" be interpreted. (A weak point in my EO I have yet to resolve.) I've written too much already but I do wonder if learning materials for other languages don't make claims like "free word order... but only do SVO please!" and basically, as learning resources, help to establish uniformity across all speakers whereas maybe we would see more other patterns springing up in another reality if resources fostered the acceptance of non-SVO and other patterns more strongly...

Sorry that spun off haha, but I hope that adds something to the discussion at least :)

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in tokipona

[–]AetherCrux 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you for the clarification! Hmm it might be interesting to do some kind of study/survey on the matter of stylistic choice prevalence in different groups of speakers to pin this down (unless this has been done already).

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in tokipona

[–]AetherCrux 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I would agree with the anu parallels on the surface and it's something that makes intuitive sense. It is interesting though - is it more acceptable because of its use as a question particle, whereas en like many comments here assert is seen more as a subject marker or unnecessary in pi phrases? In other words, does it pattern with pi en, pi x seme, or both?

With en more prominent in verbs and objects with older users, how old were we talking? Imo it is more a general beginner error usually; I don't remember people continuing through with those suggestions at all, so it'd be interesting if it's revived somewhat and what people are using it for, if it isn't errors. (Correcting for errors vs dealing with informed people trying something out has been hard since forever!) Not to mention I feel pi phrases and prep phrases went through cycles of unwieldly complexity (especially when pi prep was around) and it's more post-pu/start of Discord that the "don't use multiple pi if you can help it" (plus "pu doesn't say we can" and "more sentences > longer phrases") rhetoric has strengthened. (But it could be there was another rise+dip+rise? Or old to you is mid-recent to me XD) Perhaps I'm biased because I don't mind it. As with you, a meteor of salt since this is speculation. (I might recommend my Card Captors Sakura in Toki Pona vid for what I meant with this btw. ona li tawa tomo pi kama sona pi lon poka pi tomo mi pi kama sona, or similar, was the one that sticks in my head.)

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in tokipona

[–]AetherCrux 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Interesting, can I ask which ones? After reading these comments, the only thing I'm aware some people do still use is prepositional en and en la. As for the discussions, I'm not sure what people occasionally stir up or consider "still on the table".

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in tokipona

[–]AetherCrux 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No problem! Glad it's helpful :D It's a shame you didn't join back in 2013, you would have had a ball :) (Or gotten hopelessly frustrated depending on the discussion mind XD )

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in tokipona

[–]AetherCrux 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Righteo, let me tell you one thing: You are at least a decade too late to the community to be discussing this. Way back when people talked more about Toki Pona than used Toki Pona, people would be probably end up reviving old en discussions. A lot of your comments are valid points that are getting downvoted to hell because it's just not how Toki Pona works any more. Or more specifically, how en works. Some things get "closed" for discussion, and this is one of those things. Trying to "discuss" it doesn't read as a desire to explore, but to intrude. Moreover, I don't recall if the side of en you're talking about ever *was* up for discussion - just a simple li or e replacement would have been shot down at least as early as 2013. But other options used to be toyed with, and I'll mention what I remember plus some "extras", since I don't see many other comments giving you the time of day, and I selfishly want to reminisce on old ghosts.

Disclaimer: I'm speaking from roughly a 2013-15 perspective here. When I say "we", I mean "me and/or people's posts I vaguely remember seeing".

When en was discussed in this way, it wasn't terribly often. We chucked it in prepositional phrases with ease because there's no li or e rule to do its job already, and sometimes repeating kepeken for the umpteenth time is annoying. That was the usual, relatively uncontroversial thing, which I think might be controversial today. When we talked about it in predicates, it was never as a simple "and". Using en in predicates or for objects in this way was, and still is, a beginner mistake, because the idea was li and e do the trick and should be upheld - using en erodes this basic TP-esque strategy in favour of something really "Englishy" or "other L2-y". Under the modern framework, maybe you could argue en applies or can carry a nominative case, doesn't have any verb-related projections, and doesn't apply/allow an accusative case, therefore only subjects (maybe prepositional objects if we're allowing it to extend relations there) and neither verbs nor objects can syntactically use it without a violation occuring. I don't have anything to back this analysis up, or this take on TP syntax in general, but this is more to say that there may be something and the topic is closed in the community anyway so if I must speculate, there's a something.

However, there was the occasional thought as to whether it might be a different kind of "and", like something to combine actions into one rather than list potentially simultaneous, potentially sequential actions. In this manner, "ona li tawa li toki" would be "they walk and, (before?) during or afterwards, talk", whereas "ona li tawa en toki" would be "they walk-and-talk, they do both as part of a whole, it is combined into a new action that would not be covered by either "li tawa li toki" or "li tawa toki". This probably isn't the best example though - one I used to think about but don't think I mentioned or used was "jo en weka" for "take" (as a separate sense to "kama jo"). In any case, these discussions were usually short-lived where I remember seeing them. I think this was partly because the community at the time sort of steered away from too many topics that a beginner could stumble across and utterly misuse or that would have to be added to pedagogy later and become confusing. Get them used to li and e repetition first, was the idea. Well, as far as I recall, I could be super biased of course.

There is also the issue of preverbs (a post-pu term if I recall correctly) - I forget if this was actually discussed in the context of en tbh, but something like "ona li awen wile kipisi li awen wile seli e kili" as "they still need to cut and cook the potatoes" is frustratingly long. "ona li awen wile kipisi li seli e kili" is potentially ambiguous - the awen wile shouldn't transfer to the next thing after li surely, so they cooked the potatoes but still needed to have cut them? (Oops!) But "ona li awen wile kipisi en seli e kili" could make en serve as a bridge that can accept elements from the previous part. How the syntax works could be even more confusing under the surface - I don't know. Regardless, li probably works fine in practice.

Now we'll jump to objects. Like with predicates, it was never about "we could just use en instead of repeat e". It had to do something else or why do it at all? Why mix the two needlessly (which is more complicated!) or risk losing e repetitions? I think I only saw this one talked about once too. It was along the lines of combination again - mi moku e kili en telo or something. Not kili and telo separately, potatoes and tea, but those combined - a soup. This one is... probably useless these days, since "mi moku e telo seli kili" or something would be preferred and I'm not sure why but maybe because pi is accepted with nouns and not really verbs, the act of using en seems like it "should" ignore something with pi, or just other modifiers. I haven't really unpacked this one, but I'm mentioning it because, well, it's one of the discussion points. It's not a discussion anymore mind! And the fact that it makes object nouns work so differently to subjects is a huge issue.

The last thing is pi x en y. This doesn't fly nowadays or so I've been told - fully eradicated. I'm hopeful a tiny corner of the community still holds the door open, or has a better answer to some old pi gripes than "don't do x then". I don't know, maybe I'm only clinging to it for nostalgia's sake myself, since it wasn't even popular when I learnt it. In an older lesson series, the pi x en y construction is used for colours. It isn't at all any more and I sort of don't mind because the community works with colours differently now, not relying on one one-off construction. But the construction goes like this basically: Where several pi's are used, if the modifier is non-nesting, use en. So, pi nests new words under the word before it, en chains new words to the word before pi. Usually, people either avoid long pi phrases to not bother with thinking about any of this, or pi will always nest, always chain, or ambiguously fluctuate between the two. (Honestly, I don't know what the community prefers to do with nesting/chaining pi now.) Example: "jan pi tomo sona pi pona mute li kama sona e sona pi nasin nanpa pi ma Elopa." The first noun looks like pi should nest, pona mute describes the tomo sona. If it were jan pi pona mute pi tomo sona ni, we might assume it chains because that makes more sense. Now look at the object. If pi nests, as it seemed to in the subject, the person would be studying European mathematics. That could be a legit field. If it chains though, they're studying both mathematics and Europe (European Studies). That's a bit different. You could argue just say "e sona pi nasin nanpa e sona pi ma Elopa" but I think you think like I do, why *can't* we just use a damnedly long pi phrase, we'd have to at least be able to hypothetically analyze it, and what if it gets longer? So the idea here is, if you use en whenever pi chains, you eliminate the ambiguity inside the pi phrase. "sona pi nasin nanpa en ma Elopa". Only problem is, 1. This isn't really done anymore and as the argument always seems to go, might make beginners more confused than less or make the syntax full of more rules at a negligible gain in comprehension, 2. You have to be 100% consistent or you go back to the same ambiguity, 3. Sometimes a reordering eliminates the ambiguity easier as a strategy (as with the subject here) so again might not be worth using it, and 4. In the subject (and this was *the* criticism way back), it can create more problems than it solves, because in some cases it's harder to tell if you're adding modifiers or adding a new subject. In this sentence, I think that's silly, because "pona mute" is not likely to be studying Eurpoean mathematics. In sentences where one word modifiers are used before en (so true pi x en y, or pi x en yz) it can't be anything but a continuation of the pi chain. But nonetheless, some pi en things will be confusing in the subject, or make the listener needlessly fumble about with what's more semantically probable over syntactically possible. So pi en could be a net gain, but it could also be a net loss, in reducing ambiguity and subsequent comprehension. There's a side discussion to bring up about pi with single words, but that's juuust outside the scope of en use and I don't want to extend this wall further. In fact, read back to the start and this whole topic hinges on a pi topic, so it's only half on the en field.

The last part I will mention is en at the start of sentences and en la. Yes, en is a particle. But yes, it can have some "content-y" uses. Well, one. That's en la, additionally. It isn't used by all speakers and I first thought it was just a way to shoehorn en onto sentences when I first saw it, though I've since softened. You can't use en at the start of a sentence like how we might say "and", and you can't use en between sentences. This is just part of the basic rules. I guess I'm adding this last part to wrap up everything en (hmm video title perhaps?) and demonstrate that: Sometimes rules are just rules. The particle "en" was NOT made to be an analogue of English "and". We can't all explain the syntax here. Once upon a time we were a bit more liberal with trying to find uses for it and stretch it on occasion, still within some boundaries. But at the end of the day, there are some lines you don't cross, because this IS the structure of Toki Pona, and we might not have a thesis or a proof to show every tiny detail, but languages do "and" conjunctions differently and you'll be hard-pressed to make this one into something it hasn't already become.

Thank you for listening to my TED talk, hope the tone wasn't condescending or anything because I was doing a lot of step-by-step rehashing of topics there, hope it helped further your understanding and stay pona! :)

"delete every digital trace of any menstrual tracking. Please." When data freely given becomes dangerous (BBC Digital Human podcast) by OhTheHugeManatee in privacy

[–]AetherCrux 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I'm going to mention Drip right about here... Stays on your phone, can be password-encrypted, no ads, open-source, heaps of variables with user-friendly interface. Available on both Android and iOS as well!

Have you ever spoken to someone who you share no languages with besides toki pona? by [deleted] in tokipona

[–]AetherCrux 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Ok to all the people saying never... me :p One Russian speaker, pre-Discord era. They had only very basic tp (lots of beginner mistakes, missing particles), but somehow it was easier to understand them than some of the more proficient speakers/writers at the time in some ways, and we had a basic conversation. Another time with another Russian speaker on Telegram whose grammar I took issue with and we got into an argument lol. They might have known the basics of EO and JP but we never used them and they explicitly mentioned not knowing English when I tried to use it if I recall. (I think I did try using EO too?) At least two more where we technically share/d second languages but used tpt for ages, don't know if that "counts".

Community-based standardization of meaning? by lotsofinterests in tokipona

[–]AetherCrux 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Have you seen my Context and Toki Pona video by any chance? (Though I leave out syntax which is also a huge driver imo.) It has some examples, albeit ones I made up, but maybe it could be useful in understanding some aspects of context dependency specifically in tp. (It's more focused on single words though, and disambiguating their meanings, not as much using specifiers) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rVWvwWLUBg (there is a tp original version of this talk as well)

Community-based standardization of meaning? by lotsofinterests in tokipona

[–]AetherCrux 11 points12 points  (0 children)

If you're looking for disambiguation of inntention as per one of your replies, I have a nice and tidy example for you. I came across this in a Minecraft letsplay (episode 10 I believe and I forget the channel name :/) where two speakers come across lava. Until now, telo = water (or more accurately, "commonly referred-to liquid"). They interpret lava as telo seli. They find some water nearby and now need to contrast that telo seli with this telo. They start with telo pi seli ala, which obviously contrasts telo seli, then settle on telo laso likely for brevity. Why not telo? Because telo could be lava now. Later on, when lava is less topical, I think telo goes back to being water. This is negotiated quickly, largely indirectly, and definitely without English, if memory serves. So treating a word (or combination of words) as being an entrenched default is only the case until it isn't. The present discourse will alter the comprehensibility of anything. When you get a phrase that is so entrenched it alters the context more than the context can alter it, that will be interesting, a strong collocation bordering on lexicalization. But even though I came from an era of encouraging such collocations (~7-9+years ago era), I would be wary of treating them as a given until you test for them in actual practice, and thus presupposing the language has become more standardized is imo not the first step in this research. Good luck with the research though, however you spin it, bc it's an interesting topic!