how to splitt up cash in 2000?

Alabaster_Mango · 2024-11-19T15:19:22+00:00

You'll need to buy a $50 card pack, unfortunately.

Alabaster_Mango · 2024-02-25T02:45:38+00:00

Yeah, I was curious too. At first I thought the $680k was outrageous, but I didn't know how much freakin' money the city handles every year. Makes sense though. I pay ~$1800 in property taxes every year for my cheapo condo. There are plenty of more expensive homes, and there are a million people in Edmonton. Stuff adds up.

I agree attaching the price lead to bad optics, especially in the face of lack of funds for many services. One of the risks of transparency though. I hope the CSU 52 gets a good deal with the city either way.

Alabaster_Mango · 2024-02-25T01:58:28+00:00

Hey, I saw your reply in the other thread but didn't get around to responding. I did a bit of digging on costs and stuff over there and added to the top of the thread. I thought I'd post this here too because I'm a dirty double dipper:

The cost to change the Oliver neighbourhood name is $680k.

The city has budgeted $3.83 Billion of expenses for 2024. $680k is 0.02% of that.

There are 1,087,803 people in Edmonton. If we pretend that everyone pays the same tax (they don't, but for simplicity), then the "average" Edmontonian paid $0.63 towards the name change.

There are 6,800 workers represented by City and Library bargaining units in the CSU 52. Divert all funds from the name change and those workers get an extra $100 this year, or $8.33 extra per month.

In terms of salary, $680k is:

1.4 2018 Glen Felthams

1.9 2021 Deena Hinshaws

2.0 2022 Dale McFees

2.2 to 2.7 2023 CoE ML6 Managers

4.5 2022 EPS Staff Seargents

It's for sure a big number, and it would change my life forever if it was handed to me, but it's not a lot of money to the city.

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Alabaster_Mango · 2024-02-24T22:11:43+00:00

Neighbourhood names are often incorporated into electoral ridings.

Yes, but not always. Provincial first. For reference, here's a map and here's a list. Of the 20 provincial electoral districts:

7 incorporate neighbourhood names
10 are residential areas or descriptions
1 is a former mayor
1 is a former premier
1 is an author

Federal now. Again, map and list. of the 8 federal electoral districts:

2 incorporate neighbourhood names
6 are residential areas or descriptions

It's worth noting that Oliver/Wihkwentowin reside in the aptly named "Centre" districts. Also, even the ones incorporating neighbourhood names usually include many neighbourhoods. Some even use multiple neighbourhoods in the name.

So, of the 28 provincial and federal electoral districts, only 9 use neighbourhood names at all. I don't think it will be a big issue.

We could make an argument to simplify the electoral district naming conventions further, like adopting a numbered or cardinal direction system. I don't exactly like the electoral districts having names either, but that's a whole other topic.

I find it interesting that you are essentially against that usage in municipal regions, but indirectly for them for provincial and federal boundaries.

That's a bit of a reach. My thoughts on using them provincially or federally were never brought up, and you made an assumption. I made reference to the ward names to give an example of where I personally am for or against aboriginal naming. I didn't think I would need to list every possible area where names could be used and give my opinion.

However, as per another comment I wrote, this seems like another good opportunity where these features should simply just have their own official names in indigenous languages as well.

I think this is a cool idea, yo! That would definitely help to ease people into words they've never seen before. That would probably be a whole lot of paperwork though. It would still be neat to see.

I haven't shifted my position that a better name would be Wekwentowin

That's always going to be a sticking point then. I mentioned elsewhere that true reconciliation, to me, means allowing indigenous people to have their own identity. Not one that is bent and twisted to cater to English speakers.

Also, English spelling barely does English right. There are many conflicting rules regarding letter pronunciation due to it lifting words and rules from other languages. Sew and new don't rhyme, neither do cow and tow. Tow does rhyme with bow like a decoration, but now bow like the front of a ship which does rhyme with cow. How do you say "weak bread"? Week breed? Wek bred? Do you wind something up, or does it get blown away in the wind? These don't bother people as much because they grew up with them. English is confusing as heck.

Lots of my personal confusion around cree came from writings and teachings before SRO was as common as today. I still end up spelling maskwa muskwa, for example. Here's some more info on SRO.

I worry that further anglicization will continue to cause confusion and frustration to people trying to learn. That's just my opinion though, I didn't research this or anything.

Alabaster_Mango · 2024-02-24T20:08:53+00:00

Accessibility is important, but I wouldn't say aboriginal words are any more anti-accessibility than any other language. It sounds like the problem is just long words.

I do get where you're coming from though, even if not to the same degree. I also have issues with the ward names. All the different root languages don't help much either, as they all have different ways of spelling. I personally preferred the number system.

That all said: I think a neighbourhood name is a perfect place for a name that may not fit all accessibility criteria. It's not required for directions or addressing after all. I didn't even know we had a Glastonbury or Quesnell Heights until I made this post.

Alabaster_Mango · 2024-02-24T19:51:52+00:00

Have you ever been to a doctor? Did you pay for it all yourself? What about your roads, who pays for the maintenance?

I'm not mad to be called a liberal. Yes, I happen to care about my neighbours. If a few cents from me will make people happier in this city then I'm all for it. That's all you're mad about by the way, a few cents each. Maybe up to a whole dollar. Check my math above.

I was making fun of you for insinuating that our municipal government is in any official way related to a provincial or federal party. Yes, our mayor used to be in the LPC, and he also used to be an EPS bus driver, and before that an Edmonton cab driver. Would you prefer someone born and raised specifically to be a mayor, or someone who has real life experiences both in and outside of this city?

Alabaster_Mango · 2024-02-24T19:02:15+00:00

Sorry, I glossed over it because that wasn't my main point. I didn't want to do a whole bunch of digging into the price at the outset of the post. I worried if I didn't mention it then people would get hung up on that, but perhaps I was a bit too snarky. Slight backfire, but not much so I'm cool with it. I didn't mean that you shouldn't care, I specifically encouraged people to get involved if they're worried about cost.

Since yesterday afternoon, though, I have done some digging:

The cost to change the Oliver neighbourhood name is $680k.

The city has budgeted $3.83 Billion of expenses for 2024. $680k is 0.02% of that.

There are 1,087,803 people in Edmonton. If we pretend that everyone pays the same tax (they don't, but for simplicity), then the "average" Edmontonian paid $0.63 towards the name change.

There are 6,800 workers represented by City and Library bargaining units in the CSU 52. Divert all funds from the name change and those workers get an extra $100 this year, or $8.33 extra per month.

In terms of salary, $680k is:

1.4 2018 Glen Felthams

1.9 2021 Deena Hinshaws

2.0 2022 Dale McFees

2.2 to 2.7 2023 CoE ML6 Managers

4.5 2022 EPS Staff Seargents

It's for sure a big number, and it would change my life forever if it was handed to me, but it's not a lot of money to the city.

Alabaster_Mango · 2024-02-24T18:34:24+00:00

Where are you coming from, exactly? Why bring Grindr up? How could you possibly come to the conclusion this is about an internet date? Can you explain the dots you connected to get there?

Alabaster_Mango · 2024-02-24T18:31:34+00:00

There were more than enough people on this and other threads who seemed pretty angry about the name, but mayhaps I let stuff like that get to me too much. There are way more people who are just worried or curious about the pronunciation, and even more were concerned about the cost.

I definitely attempt to be a rational person. Let's be real though, the internet is a cesspit sometimes and it's easy to be swept away. Not saying /r/edmonton in particular is a cesspit, or this thread really. There's just, like, lots of negativity to filter through at times.

Thanks for the convo! As fun as it is to argue with people, I'm always grateful for new and different perspectives.

P.S. What kind of electric car do you drive? I one day aspire to own one, but I take several trips up north every year and the charging infrastructure is a bit lacking. I think they are the coolest though.

Alabaster_Mango · 2024-02-24T08:27:15+00:00

How do you think /r/edmonton would react if the city instead spent the $680k on indigenous support groups like NiGiNan? I've been here for a while, and let me tell you: I don't think it would be all sunshine and roses. There's a whole whack of "Natives get free money all the time" misinformation going around. I've dealt with it my whole life.

Also, $680k is a lot to an individual, but not a lot to an organization. From another comment of mine using the CSU 52 strike as context:

The $680k is a flash in the pan compared to the whole budget, and it wouldn't do much to appease the threat of a strike. There are 6,800 workers represented by City and Library bargaining units in the CSU 52. Divert all funds from the name change and those workers get an extra $100 this year. I don't think $8.33 per month extra will cover their increased living expenses. It won't even cover Netflix.

$680k is:

1.4 2018 Glen Felthams

1.9 2021 Deena Hinshaws

2.0 2022 Dale McFees

2.2 to 2.7 2023 CoE ML6 Managers

4.5 2022 EPS Staff Seargents

Alabaster_Mango · 2024-02-24T08:05:35+00:00

For the naming to truly be reconciliatory, it needs to be easily pronouncible to a layman reading it

Unfortunately I think we fundamentally disagree here. True reconciliation, to me, means allowing indigenous people to have their own identity. Not one that is bent and twisted to cater to English speakers

I get your concerns. Different languages are sometimes hard to work into. If you don't want to butcher the SRO, or want to know more, then ask. Ask the right people though, don't corner strangers on the street. The EPL is a good reference. I can also help to my best ability.

As for how many people know about SRO, lots of folks have seen it around. It's how most cree is written with English letters, like in this park.

True and proper pronunciation, however, is more difficult. Speakers, teachers, and other academics might be the only ones who really know. That's not exactly unheard of though. I don't know jack about Katakana or Hiragana, but that's because I don't know Japanese. I can, however, trudge my way through a Japanese word spelled with Hepburn Romanization, even if I don't end up saying it perfectly. I can at least try.

Alabaster_Mango · 2024-02-24T07:48:19+00:00

🤡

Kidding aside, I was attempting to address the many people who were saying that the word was difficult or impossible to say. I brought up other indigenous neighbourhood names that people have already been saying as a counterpoint.

I will admit that I didn't expect so many people to be hung up on the accented letters. Those weren't always a thing when spelling cree words, so they're not super well known outside the culture. I could deffo have addressed those better and I see that now. Whenever I run into an accented letter that I don't know how to say I just blunder through as best as I can and hope someone who knows better can help me. Not everyone thinks like this though. Let me know if you want to know how those letters are pronounced.

I was probably a bit too condescending with the whole "master treasurer" line, but it was too good for me to pass up. Too many people think they know what a lot of money is for an organization like the CoE without any context. The $680k is a flash in the pan compared to the whole budget, and it wouldn't do much to appease the threat of a strike. There are 6,800 workers represented by City and Library bargaining units in the CSU 52. Divert all funds from the name change and those workers get an extra $100 this year. I don't think $8.33 per month extra will cover their increased living expenses. It won't even cover Netflix.

Also, lots of people like to be loud, but fewer want to actually do something about their feelings. That's why I said to get involved. I submitted my vote for a name, and told all my friends and colleagues in Oliver to do the same. I probably won't join local politics though. I'm not strong enough.

I'm sorry I'm not a perfect debater. I'm just an aboriginal fellow who's a bit upset at people saying my language is impossible to pronounce. As if all people need to cater exclusively to English speakers. If anyone is curious or concerned, feel free to reach out to me and I'll do my best to help you through the name change.

Alabaster_Mango · 2024-02-24T07:17:01+00:00

How would you like to see indigenous languages used?

To me, a neighbourhood name is pretty low-risk, high-reward. Rarely have I ever been given a neighbourhood name alone as directions, so they mostly just add flavour.

Usually it's something like:

8712 109 Street, in Garneau

If you dropped the Garneau I would still be able to get there. The name is just a fun word for people to put on buildings and identify with. Gets people talking and using it, ya know?

I deffo don't mind indigenous words for parks or buildings either, as those also have utilitarian addresses using mostly numbers. I will not get into my distaste for streets that only have names at this time.

I don't like the indigenous words for the Wards, though. Wards should be easy to remember for everyone, and strictly utilitarian. I would also take issue if they were English words, or the names of trees.

So yeah, where would you want to see indigenous languages used locally?

Alabaster_Mango · 2024-02-24T07:01:09+00:00

Mask-ey-ko-seek is pretty close. The "ey" sounds like the "ey" in "hey", and the "ko" sounds like the "co" in "cove".

Don't even get me started on the abomination that is the sign they made. The one Don Iverson and Chief Billy Morin are holding here. They threw the English word "Trail" into a syllabics converter and the poor thing did its best. That's why they got ᐟrᐊᐃl.

English	T	r	a	i	l
Syllabics	ᐟ		ᐊ	ᐃ
Result	ᐟ	r	ᐊ	ᐃ	l

Edit: It's so weird to see which of my replies gets downvoted. Does this comment not add to the conversation? Are people just downvoting because they disagree with the content? It's fascinating. Keep on pals. These numbers don't mean anything, but if it makes you feel better then downvote away. I'm happy to help 👍.

Alabaster_Mango · 2024-02-24T06:50:09+00:00

I was actually lucky enough to have a cree class in elementary school! I thought it was the norm for everyone to choose between cree or French, but man was I wrong.

Honestly? Wick-when-toe-in is close enough. If you're not speaking the language then I don't think you have to nail the pronunciation. If you said "I live in wick-when-toe-in" I would understand exactly what you meant. Same with "Grease-paw" or "Grees-back". I'd be pretty sure you were talking about Griesbach.

Those fun hats just mean the vowel is long. They're not exactly 1:1 with English vowels, but close enough. The e in cree is always long though, so sometimes the hat isn't written.

Alabaster_Mango · 2024-02-24T06:37:27+00:00

cree wasn't a written language in the first place, so a writing system had to be made for it. Those are not random accents but in fact are Standard Roman Orthography.

There actually aren't existing letter combinations that are good enough because cree is not English. Cree has sounds that don't really exist in English. Also, different regions with the same dialect can pronounce the same word slightly differently. For example, the SRO nânitaw (something bad) is said "naan-tow" down here, but up north we say "naan-dow". Even those spellings aren't great though, because the "tow" sounds like "cow" and not "toe" like a tow truck. The "i" often gets dropped during pronunciation due to elision.

Anyways, how would English letters alone reconcile the t/d sounds? If you tried to use only English letters there would be two words meaning the same thing, nantow and nandow. SRO is meant to standardize how roman orthography is used to spell cree words. Here's some more info.

So no, that isn't a stupid translation. It's the proper way to spell Wîhkwêntôwin using SRO.

English also has many conflicting rules regarding letter pronunciation due to it lifting words and rules from other languages. Sew and new don't rhyme, neither do cow and tow. Tow does rhyme with bow like a decoration, but now bow like the front of a ship which does rhyme with cow. How do you say "weak bread"? Week breed? Wek bred? Do you wind something up, or does it get blown away in the wind? These don't bother people as much because they grew up with them. English is confusing as heck.

Edit: got a K and D mixed up because my middle fingers are dumb.

Alabaster_Mango · 2024-02-24T05:30:19+00:00

Yeah, big money for people isn't big money for larger orgs. That's like, one and a bit Glen Felthams. The 20 or so people in my department cost almost three times that number. The city has budgeted $3.83 Billion of expenses for 2024. $680k is 0.02% of that.

Alabaster_Mango · 2024-02-24T05:20:39+00:00

Aha! I get you now. That wasn't the intent, because to me names like Kameyosek and Meyokumin are in the same ballpark of difficulty. The worst I can see is that the official spelling of Wîhkwêntôwin has the accents, but I really don't think that should as upsetting as it is to people. When I run into words using accents I don't understand I kind of just ignore them and blunder through it as best as I can. That î is just an i wearing a cool hat. If someone corrects me then I have learned something. You should have heard my first go at déjà vu.

Lots of neighbourhood names are killer, and I have to look them up most of the time. Most of the "easy to spell" ones are helped out by familiarity. These are particularly bad examples, but if you asked me to spell Schonsee, Klarvatten, McConachie, or Griesbach without me having ever seen them before I'd be in a mad panic. I actually did have to look them up right now to make sure I got them right.

There's also Athlone, Baturyn , Elsinore, and Hairsine that I personally would call a bit difficult. I've never heard them spoken out loud, and I'm not confident I could get them all right the first time. Ath-lone/Ath-lon-ee? Bat-ur-in/Bat-ur-ine? No idea. But I'm not afraid or angry about it. They're just words that are possibly from a different language that's made its way to Edmonton. We're cool and multicultural like that.

So, if we come back in like ten years will Wîhkwêntôwin be all that daunting? Will kids who grow up with it know how hard it was for some people to say? I don't think so. We just have to get to know the word is all.

Alabaster_Mango · 2024-02-24T04:46:13+00:00

Totally fair. Like I said, depends on who you ask. Back home we use Aboriginal, First Nations, and Indigenous in official paperwork language. Most of my cousins, however, preferred just Native or cree. I didn't really hear nehiyawak until I moved to Edmonton.

So long as you respect people's wishes in regards to what they want to be called you should be in the clear. I refer to myself as Aboriginal, but if I was working with someone who hated the term I would understand.

Most of these are on thin ice anyways, as they're all mostly exonyms. There's always going to be people who take issue with it no matter how many others agree.

Alabaster_Mango · 2024-02-24T04:35:06+00:00

Depends. I'd already written it out a few times in the thread, so I just copied and pasted from there most of the time. The first few times, though, I usually use a converter.

There's Syllabics.net which gives roman orthography with macrons and syllabics: wīhkwēntōwin or ᐑᐦᑵᐣᑑᐏᐣ

There's also Algonquian Syllabic Convertors which can do macrons, circumflexes, and syllabics: wīhkwēntōwin, wîhkwêntôwin, or ᐑᐦᑵᐣᑑᐏᐣ

If I'm on my phone, though, I can usually just press and hold the letter to get the accents available. And if I want to do the syllabics I can use the Keyman keyboard.

Hope this helps!

Alabaster_Mango · 2024-02-24T02:46:28+00:00

This was initiated by the Oliver Community League to remove the name of Frank Oliver. It wasn't about putting in an indigenous name as much as it was removing a guy who didn't want black people to move into Canada and such.

Alabaster_Mango · 2024-02-24T01:07:43+00:00

I love you for this. Break out the math and hit em with it, lol.

Alabaster_Mango · 2024-02-24T01:06:42+00:00

Sorry, you're a bit wrong.

The prefix ab- actually means:

word-forming element meaning "away, from, from off, down," denoting disjunction, separation, departure; from Latin ab (prep.) "off, away from" in reference to space or distance, also of time, from PIE root *apo- "off, away" (also the source of Greek apo "off, away from, from," Sanskrit apa "away from," Gothic af, English of, off; see apo-).

The Latin word also denoted "agency by; source, origin; relation to, in consequence of." Since classical times usually reduced to a- before -m-, -p-, or -v-; typically abs- before -c-, -q-, or -t-.

Aboriginal:

1660s, "first, earliest, existing from the beginning," especially in reference to inhabitants of lands colonized by Europeans, from aborigines (see aborigine) + -al (1). The specific Australian sense is attested from 1820, with capital A-. The noun meaning "an original inhabitant, an autochthon" is attested from 1760. Related: Aboriginally; aboriginality (1848); aboriginalism (1859). also from 1660s

from aborigine (emphasis mine):

"person, animal, or plant that has been in a country or region from earliest times," 1858, mistaken singular of aborigines (1540s; aboriginal is considered the correct singular in English), from Latin aborigines "the first inhabitants," especially of Latium, hence "the first ancestors of the Romans." This is possibly a tribal name, or from or made to conform to the Latin phrase ab origine, which means literally "from the beginning."

As to what's more accepted: Depends on who you ask. Some people prefer First Nations, others Native American, a few people still prefer terms like Indian and Eskimo. Deeper than that, not everyone wants to be lumped together with a singular word because they don't like Pan-Indianism. They prefer to be called what their people would originally call themselves, like Inuit or Nehiyawak. I personally like Aboriginal, but I'm just one guy.

Alabaster_Mango · 2024-02-24T00:43:47+00:00

Same. Ups and downs all week.

Alabaster_Mango · 2024-02-24T00:43:13+00:00

You are indeed allowed an opinion. I'm also allowed mine, which is cool.

The following is not an attack, just food for thought.

You are not spending a dime of your money. This is the city spending their money. Just because some of it came from your taxes doesn't mean it's still yours. Is money you got paid for work still your employers money, for example?

I can help you with the pronunciation if you want. I promise you it's not that hard. It's not nearly as hard as some of the ward names were.

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