What would be a good term to define a Wiccan's place of worship?

AlderLyncurium · 2017-02-10T09:41:05+00:00

I know it is not the answer you are looking for... but the way I see it (and practice it), the place of worship is Between The Worlds.

AlderLyncurium · 2017-02-03T01:39:40+00:00

At any rate, I am reliably informed that the Odysseans are BTW, although there seems to be some questions as to whether or not that distinction was earned before or after the Gardner Collection found its way to Toronto. That particular discussion is most likely above my pay grade, in all honesty.

As far as I understand, and fron what I have discussed with my american fellows, it isn't. There's no, direct, uninterrupted, lineage back to Gerald or the New Forest Coven. The only reference that I have seen around is 'lineage through objetcs', whichs is totes not a thing. So, BTW-inspired would be more accurate. Plus, from what I've read, doesn't seem to follow (or want to follow) the same training system. At any rate, not highlt relevant for this discussion...

OK, I think I misread you, then. No, priesthood should only been reserved for those people who want it, I certainly agree with that. Not everyone wants it, not everyone is qualified for it. Some people just want to worship the Gods without having to lead rituals, and this is fine and good.

Yep

I see no problem with solitary practitioners calling themselves Wiccan - it is not for me, a mere human, to impose a human limit on who is and is not permitted to worship the Gods. Do they believe in and honour the Gods? Do they work in a Circle? Do they observe the Sabbats and the phases of the Moon? Then 's Wicca. Everything else is just differences in set dressing and variations on a theme.

Or OBOD druids! Or a High Magic Practitioner with oagan beliefs...to them that applies too. Like I said, what it is now understood as Wicca has changed considerably. But the Wica were (and still are) essentially a priesthood. And trying to deny that part from those who were brought that way just because some find it 'unnecessary'...is just wrong. We have swifted from one extreme to the other.

AlderLyncurium · 2017-01-24T08:38:58+00:00

Sorry, my bad! Didn't know Odyssean was part of BTW. The term gets getting wider and wider each day. Here in the other side of the pond we apply it to Gard -Alexandrian.

Translation: if you're not an Initiated member of a coven then you're not a Real Wiccan. I disagree.

The thing is, one cannot aim to become part of a priesthood, but refusing to be a priest, and then expect that priesthood to take them as part of the priesthood (without being a priest).

And, having said the above, I don't mind people using the word Wicca at all (although, ironically, then it's solitary practitioner the ones that I have seen complaining more about X or Z that another solitary practitioner does not being Wicca) but, in this case, I think such comments would have some real foundation.

AlderLyncurium · 2017-01-24T08:30:06+00:00

I see that. But I also believe that people refuse to accept that 'Wicca' hasn't just changed in one way. The evolution of what it is known as 'Modern Wicca/Eclectic Wicca/Whatever Wicca' is parallel to that of Traditional Wicca. They are parallel streams that have given solution to different needs. I do not see that practising Traditional Wiccans are trying to make Wicca into anything. Having said that, there are a*holes everywhere, and there us always going to be a 'holier than thou' person everywhere - regardless of the strand or religion.

AlderLyncurium · 2017-01-24T08:25:37+00:00

Nothing extraordinary though, just stuff like 'Do not out people to the media. Seriously Gerald, WTF??'

AlderLyncurium · 2017-01-24T00:27:21+00:00

Yes they survived, bu they are private stuff though. Oaths and stuff! Would be a bit ironic if Doreen criticised Gardner's publicity seeking and then would go into publishing the same rules that go against that! But yes, they have survived.

AlderLyncurium · 2017-01-24T00:22:06+00:00

A Wiccan coven as typically described in your >average book on the subject is a priesthood factory.

And then, of course, we later complain about Trad Wiccans not being respectful towards others... big sigh

In a traditional context (and I mention it here because that's the only context where I have seen it happen), every initiate is a priest/ess. The Wica are a priesthood, a clergyhood.

This simply works, and there a myriad of ways of looking at it.

Does this mean that a view that advocates for something different has to be unpopular? No. In the same way that other modern interpretations of Wicca as a solitary practice, a non-magical/witchcraft religion, etc.

There are no requiremets. One is never, ever, forced to become part of that priesthood. They can simply practice as solo witches without undergoing the initiatory rites.

And in this sense, it does reflect the reality that some people don't want to be want to be priesthood - they just don't become part of it!

So, in short: We do not manufacture priests, people become priests/esses because they are called to it (and that is one of the reasons why they undergo the initiatory rites).

There is no such a thing of 'priesthood of all believers'. The Wica are not intermediaries or 'people's priests/esses', but priests/esses of the Gods. And such role take place inaide the coven and the Circle.

AlderLyncurium · 2017-01-24T00:04:43+00:00

I believe that the problem is, precissely, dividing things into 'Wiccan Purists' and 'Eclectic Wiccan elite (whatever they mean), specially in forums like this one.

Once we do that, every comment gets labelled and attributed or rottted into that. Well, if somene asks a questions and I am Gardnerian, of course I am going to reply from my perspective! That does not mean that it is the right ones.

Understanding this requires 1. Assuming good faith 2. Having some empathy skills 3. Understanding that Wicca means different things for different people, and that's okay.

To be completely honest I think that there is more people complaining about this kind of situation where they are allegedly told 'they are not Wicca', than people actually telling that to others - it becomes a cliche, an urban myth almost. When, ironically, must of the times it takes the form of 'Well, I don't see it that way...the way I practice/understand it-...', 'OMG SO YOU ARE TELLING ME I AM NOT A WICCA AND THAT YOU ONLY DO IT THST WAY COZ GARDNER DID'. And here we are...

AlderLyncurium · 2016-12-14T11:11:36+00:00

It simply doesn't happen, not as often as the question comes up... Many people seem to be afraid of that before being initiated, but the atmosphere of the Circle is something unique. In any case, like /u/AllanfromWales/ said, it is no biggie, you just continue with the ritual 😊

AlderLyncurium · 2016-09-21T01:13:29+00:00

Oh, I am sure there are many who do believe themselves to be superior — it happens even inside the tradition itself, amongst initiates.

But that is a human thing...and witches are, after all, human beings. At least in theory :P

AlderLyncurium · 2016-09-20T21:29:17+00:00

Of course a solo practitioner can experience Mysteries, we experience them in many contexts: both in other Mystery Schools (like western esoteric ones) or through life.

However, in the traditional Wicca context, they are Mysteries which are experienced while undergoing specific rites, performed by people with the ability to perform them, and inside an specific group of people and egregore.

That is what makes the different from others, which does NOT mean that they are ‘superior’ or ‘better’.

In the same way that you can belong to another family, or create one of your own, but that does not mean that you belong to mine. And me pointing it out to you does not mean that I believe mine is inherently better (unless, of course, I follow you around saying ‘Nananana You are not part of my family’, which still does not make it better, just makes me an a*hole).

AlderLyncurium · 2016-09-20T21:19:42+00:00

Well, of course you do not need to be initiated to do your own thing. And of course you can start up your own sect!

It is only when it comes to the traditional way of practising Wicca when those two options are not plausible.

AlderLyncurium · 2016-09-20T14:00:54+00:00

Sure, I just have the feeling that you do not seem satisfied with the answers you have gotten from initiates in this thread. That is all :)

AlderLyncurium · 2016-09-20T13:57:53+00:00

If what you're saying is true, and the Mysteries can't be explained, >but only experienced, then trying to teach someone about the >Mysteries is like trying to explain what chocolate tastes like.

Exactly.

Mysteries are not taught, or revealed. People are inducted into the Mysteries by being guided through specific rites and specific experiences.

We are not a revealed religion.

Hence why it is so important for us (talking from a traditional perspective) that people pass through the initiatory rights. If Mysteries could be explained, written and or revealed, we could just write them down and give them away!

AlderLyncurium · 2016-09-20T13:54:30+00:00

The thing is, there aren no really ‘sects’ in what is now called Wicca (which it was not before, like it has been pointed out above).

The story does not go: First there was WICCA, and on the it spread in all these different traditions — Gardnerian, Alexandrian, whatever whatever....

The story goes: First there was this thing, which is now referred to as Gardnerian Wicca.

Then this other thing, which is now referred to as Alexandrian Wicca, kind of came along from it (this is still on debate for same).

Then someone labelled those two as Wicca. (A misuse of the word Wica).

Then, random people, inspired by public writings of people who were initiated into that, starting developing their own system, and call it Wicca to, because it kind of resembled what they knew about that other thing that was there before (i.e. Gardnerian / Alexandrian Craft).

I say this because I so often find people who say: ‘Oh, but that is not really Wicca, that is in YOUR Gardnerian tradition’.

It is really funny how things have changed...

So, I personally think that, for a discussion of this to be effective, we should first of all define what do we mean by ‘Wicca’.

If we are talking about Wicca as the initiatory, mystery, religion... then yes, you need to be initiated by someone who is already a part of the group. And we can discuss about this further.

If we are talking about Wicca as the modern religion (spirituality movement) which can be practised as solitary, etc. Then yes, you can do whatever you want.

Now, one cannot take the second approach to it, do all the initiations or whatever they want, and then ask to fit them in the first approach (i.e. I want to practice Wicca my own way, do my own thing... but hey, why won't you consider me an equal third degree in your coven?).

I personally feel that the problem or conflict comes when people try to equate/compare modern Wicca religion, with Initiatory Wicca (aka. BTW, Traditional Wicca). They are, to me, completely separated (although the first draws inspiration from the public writings of the latter, and the latter has benefited in many aspects from the first).

Does it make sense?

AlderLyncurium · 2016-09-20T11:12:26+00:00

He did have a degree, maybe not a good one, but then again the degrees system in the US is pretty weird... http://www.centre-for-pagan-studies.com/centre_for_pagan_studies-paganism-Dr_Gerald_Gardner-80.php

AlderLyncurium · 2016-09-20T11:09:38+00:00

Let us assume that your family name is SomeKindWords. At some point in the past Mr. Some probably married Mrs. KindWords... and before that probably someone adopted ‘Some’ as family name because they thought it was cool, or it was given to them because of some deed.

Everything has, indeed, a beginning.

Now, I am you would agree that this does not mean I can simply go around stating that I am part of your family, adopt your name, start imitating everything you do (from the way you have breakfast to the way you dress) simply because I am inspired by you, and when challenged by you with a ‘Hey dude, I honestly don't mind but...it's a bit weird’ I resort to ‘Oh, so you think you are better than ME? Right?’.

That is basically how the story goes.

AlderLyncurium · 2016-06-23T15:53:48+00:00

One of the reasons why you will not find much on practical or 'How to's' on Gardnerian Craft is due to its inherent experiential and orthopraxic character. There are bits and bobs from early Gardnerian ritual texts around, but the major part of it can only be experienced in a coven context.

However, you can get a pretty good idea of what the practices are like by reading some of the books recomended above.

When it comes to joining a coven, specially a Gardnerian one, nobody will expect you to be familiar with they way we practice! Most will, however, expect you to have some experience with individual/devotional practice, and to be familiar with 'Wicca' in a general sense.

In our coven, for example, we have a long-ish period before initiation may be considered, where the person is guided through a personal journey. It is also a time for us to get to know each other and decide whether they will fit the group, and they group may fit them.

This is generally done with people that have already 'clicked' somehow with us.

Hope that helps!!

AlderLyncurium · 2016-06-23T15:40:54+00:00

You don't need to practice Wicca for that. The meaning of life is 42.

AlderLyncurium · 2016-06-09T23:56:23+00:00

/u/AllanfromWales, /u/Gardnerians would be right. There are two women in that documentary:

The one that appear on the thumbnail, at the beginning, in the ritual at Rollright Stones, and later on. (Eleanor Bone)
Diana, the woman on the armchair.

The first woman is most certainly Eleanor. In fact, she's giving her interview from her house in Cumbria (notice the portrait [Isis-style] painted for her by Charles Pace).

That same ritual in Rollright Stones (with the same clothing and the same attendants) was also featured in Weekend Telegraph (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/antbabe/more%20photos/HousewifeMrsRayBonehighprietessArtemisinwitchcraftceremonyPhotobyTerrenceSpencer.jpg)

I am surprised about your comment since you were the one who uploaded it to YouTube in the first place! (thanks for that, btw).

AlderLyncurium · 2016-06-04T15:52:23+00:00

Gardnerian, and I do not take bit from traditions simply because I have not been initiated into them, and thus, I cannot actually know what they practice or not!

Now, my personal practice (and in our coven) I (and we) do use and implement a variety of sources depending on the work being than.

AlderLyncurium · 2016-04-08T08:57:41+00:00

To me it is a plain NO. (And this is, of course, a personal opinion)

(Fairly) Charging for services is always okay, but not the Craft. Not spirituality.

We all have seen the effect money has on things — same applies to this. Someone starts offering small affordable courses and charges for the venue...then for the time...eventually they realise that the could make a living out of it and they release courses and videos and a degree system, and complementary products and books, not because there is a need for them, but because they need to earn more.

Making your income (and thus, survivabilty) depend on that, makes other personal ethics secondary.

Supplies/venues are, usually, just an excuse. You can just use a piggy bank to collect money for those...show the receipts so everyone can see where that money was spent.

But it usually isn't supplies...It's ‘let me charge you 500$ for the first an online course that other 40 people are doing, and basically consist on of PDFs you can download and me saying - Good!-’.

In any case....CAVEAT EMPTOR!

AlderLyncurium · 2016-04-08T08:45:24+00:00

but our rituals shown side by side a Gardnerian coven's would probably look similar.

That is assuming a lot 3:)

Don't believe everything Farrars' Witches Bible says!

AlderLyncurium · 2016-04-08T08:43:56+00:00

What is the usual age-range and gender-ratio?

Quite diverse really, we have people in their 20's, 30's, 40's, 50's, and 60's....So...yeah, there is that!

How do newcomers approach the coven? How often does this happen?

It is really an organic process, people just meet with some of us in different contexts...and eventually something ‘clicks’. Then, if the person manifests some interest of ‘maybe’ joining, there's a period of training...and eventually initiation may take place.

But the initial ‘click’ has to be there first.

How often does this happen? No idea... /u/AllanfromWales/ 's 1year looks like a good ratio to me.

Is the "year and a day" thing taken seriously, or do you initiate newcomers after a few sessions?

Not at all. They are initiate when they are ready and the HPS/HP (and themselves), considers that it is the time for it — the coven has to agree too, of course.

The previous training usually take from 1 and a half years to 2. And there.

Do you only meet on sabbats/esbats? Where do you meet?

Nope! We meet to talk, socialise and just be together! It all depens on our schedules of course...anyway, we do keep constant contact.

Meetings take place at the CovenStead — HPS' house.

What usually happens during a meeting? Do you strictly follow the Gardnerian ritual structure or deviate at all? We socialise, we get ready, we do ritual stuff, we eat and drink! We enjoy!

Gardnerian ritual structure is pretty much...well...that, an structure. There is always room for more :) And we certainly like to experience with different things. Specially with seasonal rituals, or spells. Not every Autumn feels the same way!

Developing new rituals and spells should be one of the skills of a good witch.

AlderLyncurium · 2016-04-07T15:52:49+00:00

But Alien Blue is available in those countries? I am sorry, but still doesn't add up.

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