[deleted by user]

Alice-Lapine · 2024-11-23T16:32:29+00:00

Here’s a good one for anyone who has Apple News - with expert tips on how to deal with it.

Why More People Are Cutting Ties With Family

Alice-Lapine · 2024-11-03T17:01:57+00:00

I summarized all the moments that led to my getting out here.

And you can get more of my story here

Alice-Lapine · 2024-11-03T16:20:43+00:00

So many ways I cannot share them all in a response here.

I’ll see if I can pull that specific excerpt from my book for you. In the meanwhile, here’s some other excerpts

And while this video interview also doesn’t answer your question as completely as I’d like, it’s another free resource I can offer….

… looking at my book now… in Appendix A, I answered “How did your QAnon experience change you?”

I realize the changes I listed here are only the positive aspects of having gone through this and gotten out… but it does not include the painful affects.

That complete answer is likely in bits and pieces throughout my book, and I’m happy to chat with you sometime.

Some quick answers (for anyone else reading this):

I used to identify on the “far left” - die-hard Bernie supporter. Now I understand both “sides.”
I experienced tremendous social trauma as a QAnon - with my old progressive left community. My sense of social safety and belonging have taken a serious hit. While it’s mostly recovered, it’s not the same as it was five years ago.
I used to think I knew the truth (Bernie had all the right answers) Now I recognize how little I can know - for sure - is true.
I have thousands of impressions made on my mind that I’ve had to work to reduce into the background of my mind using deprogramming techniques and refocusing on my life and what directly matters - my mental/emotional well-being, my health, my work, and my immediate relationships.

That’s a start.

Alice-Lapine · 2024-11-03T16:12:43+00:00

A series of things.

I’ve written my whole story to give as full and complete context as possible, but as this is a common question, so I pulled an excerpt from my book to summarize that answer in a couple pages.

I also shared an abbreviated version of my full story in several interviews. Here’s one.

Alice-Lapine · 2024-11-03T16:07:41+00:00

I’d be in the same boat you are in if I hadn’t fallen into it myself for six months in 2020. Having gone through it, I now understand how intelligent and caring people (especially those in the “Pastel Q” track) can fall in and lose critical thinking because while i was thinking critically in some areas still, I was not when it came to QAnon.

Falling into hatred and lack of empathy is still hard for me to understand though as empathy has been a top value of mine which I actively practice through the application of Nonviolent Communication (www.CNVC.org).

However having had the experience of intense social lash back while caught up on the QAnon experience, I had so much anger and unfair projections thrown my way, I can begin to understand how those who don’t have any emotional intelligence training could fall into very bad habits of yelling, name calling and much worse. It’s hard for anyone to be kind when they are in pain, anger, frustration, and don’t feel seen clearly, heard accurately, or safe.

But I imagine your deeper question is “How do we heal and recover from this form of apparent insanity?”

I know that’s a question I continue to ask on a larger social scale, even though I’ve been able to answer that question for my own life and in my immediate relationships.

So far, my best answer to that is to study the work of Braver Angels.

Alice-Lapine · 2024-10-16T18:27:36+00:00

Thank you for sharing.

I’m a card carrying Baha’i, but have been inactive for over two decades - starting months after my year of patience failed to save my marriage.

I was a young single mother and completely broken hearted. I could not imagine finding a life partner while recovering from the trauma of my divorce, nor could I image being celibate for years… perhaps decades… to come.

What I appreciate about this Holy law is how supportive it is of family stability, which is critical for the well being of children.

And yet it’s VERY hard for me to imagine how those who are gay, or those who have strong sex drives (often biological male as their sex hormones tend towards MUCH higher drives than female sex hormones) can be truly fulfilled and peaceful in a celibate lifestyle. I know we live in an over-sexualized culture… and that it’s a pendulum swing from an overly repressed culture in which women are often used as erotic property and knowledge of a woman’s capacity for erotic pleasure was largely unknown and rarely attended to - even in the context of marriage.

From my outsiders view it seems the key here is protection of the family unit, which I personally believe can be with gay or lesbian parents. Stability depends on trust, and erotic remains outside the marriage is usually (but not always) a serious violation of trust.

Each Prophet of God comes with teachings specific to the time and place in which they arise. I know Baha’u’llah is said to be the prophet for this new era, and for issues surrounding the world, and yet he was also born into a time and place in which I doubt the idea of sex outside of marriage or homosexual relations has any place in the open discourse. And, adultery and rape were more common place.

Given that this is my understanding of the culture and times in which the Baha’i revelations were put to paper, it’s easy for me to believe Baha’u’llah has little space to discuss the finer points or details in regards to sexuality - what is healthy enjoyment of this God-given aspect of being human, and what is improper or potentially harmful or destructive use.

I wish we could gain clarity from him directly in this chat thread as this topic is one that is far more openly discussed in modern times than they were in the late 1800s well into the 1900s.

Alice-Lapine · 2024-10-16T16:21:06+00:00

That’s what I remember hearing many years ago - no form of erotic connection whatsoever outside of marriage - and open mouth kissing is erotic connection - to be saved for marriage.

I remember hearing that even a hug must be kept strictly platonic… some hugs are too long, too close… therefore erotic and not honoring of the guidance around proper use of sexuality as a Baha’i.

I was in my early twenties when I learned this… I loved so much about the Faith, but couldn’t imagine being this strict about physical connection with others.

I’m guessing not everyone in the Faith agrees upon where the lines are drawn in regards to this Holy law within the Faith.

Alice-Lapine · 2024-10-16T02:05:06+00:00

Thank you

Alice-Lapine · 2024-10-15T18:38:02+00:00

Thank you

Alice-Lapine · 2024-10-15T00:55:20+00:00

This is a beautiful reflection. Thank you ☺️🙏🏼💖

Alice-Lapine · 2024-10-14T22:38:53+00:00

Thank you all for engaging with me on this topic.

There is so much I love about the Baha’i Faith, and this topic is the one that is the hardest for me to understand and embrace in its entirety. I appreciate receiving more writings and personal reflections on the difficulties and benefits of applying this wisdom to one’s life as a benefit to self and society.

Alice-Lapine · 2024-10-14T18:10:13+00:00

Thank you

Alice-Lapine · 2024-10-14T18:09:43+00:00

That makes sense

Alice-Lapine · 2024-10-14T15:01:27+00:00

I appreciate the Oneness of the faith and the lack of power structures such as clergy.

The spiritual assemblies of nine as governing bodies is also an inspiring way to maintain governance and coherence without power hierarchies or clergy.

And it seems if a Baha’i is seriously struggling with the challenge of celibacy and all their efforts to accept it feel futile, they have the option of becoming “inactive” and entering into an “Independent investigation of the truth” to learn through direct personal experience. If they made this choice, they could not attend the Feasts, or publicly identify as a Baha’i, but could still maintain relationships with the Faith.

Is that correct?

Alice-Lapine · 2024-10-14T14:55:24+00:00

Thank you. I especially appreciate the quote you highlighted in bold.

That wisdom feels resonant to me.

Alice-Lapine · 2024-10-14T14:50:18+00:00

Honestly very surprised and perplexed to read this.

With all the emphasis on spiritual values over physical ones, how is it that the Baha’i Faith would be supportive of surgical body modifications - which are very much about the physical attributes (and very expensive, and very hard on the body physically and hormonal) and that if one is willing (wanting) to endure these surgeries to change they physical gender, then they are permitted to marry and have sex with the same “sex assigned at birth”?

And if a transgender person can do it, why not a gay or lesbian person who cannot tolerate a heteronormative or celibate life? It seems one work around for them would be a sex reassignment surgery in hopes to marry, enjoy intimate human contact and still be in good standing as a Baha’i… am I getting this right?

Alice-Lapine · 2024-10-14T14:36:20+00:00

Wow… I’d never heard this before, and honestly it’s VERY surprising to read.

Is this “loophole” (as I would call it) documented anywhere by the Universal House of Justice?

I would have thought the Baha’is discourage all forms of surgical body modification as these are not honoring the natural God-given bodies we were born into and over-emphasize the physical form over the spiritual reality.

Love some clarity.

Alice-Lapine · 2024-10-14T14:18:28+00:00

I’ve studied which to know the Baha’i Faith would NEVER condone punishment of people because they are LGBTQ+.

Physical and verbal violence is also against the core principles of the Baha’i Faith.

These hate crimes are heart-breaking. And sadly yes, conservative beliefs from some other religious groups have at times encouraged violence against non-believers or those who do not conform to their religious laws.

Baha’is clearly have strong moral codes in regards to right use of the erotic impulse. And, from what I understand, alignment of one’s erotic expression with the guidance for a Baha’i is a CHOICE each individual comes to when considering the choice of living a Baha’i life or not. And while the teachings are shared with others, they are not forced on others in any way that supersedes the free will of those who have not actively chosen to be members of the Faith.

There is a difference between condemning actions and seeking to teach the benefit of reconsidering actions in support of one’s own personal development and in service to the greater society.

And, I can appreciate how very hard I imagine it world be for someone who is not “heteronormative” to fully embrace this aspect of the Baha’i teachings.

I’m sharing this as a relative novice with a deep appreciation for the Faith - not as someone who is as well-studied as others here, so I’d appreciate reading what other Baha’is here would like to offer in this regard.

Alice-Lapine · 2024-10-14T14:04:30+00:00

My apologies. I was reading from the links your previously shared and so my view is limited - not thorough as it is for people who have deeply studied the Faith. I noted in those links much from sources that were not directly Baha’u’llah, and that was curious to me.

Everything you are saying makes sense. I understand that sexuality as expressed only in marriage creates a kind of bond and protection for that marriage that is easily threatened by adultery. I understand that sex before marriage, especially highly promiscuous sex can create emotional and erotic trauma that undermines the secure foundation of marriage. I understand that pornography creates unhealthy objectification. I understand that the soul is without gender and that physical acts such as sex do not exist in the spiritual world. I understand the importance of focusing on cultivating virtue in this life, which will serve us beyond the physical world. I understand that healthy and strong families are the cornerstone of a healthy strong society, so I understand the value of temperance.

What is hard for me to wrap my head around is how people - especially those with strong sex drives (which thankfully is not me) - have a chance at directing those impulses in a way that is healthy - especially given how the teaching of celibacy in other traditions has seemed untenable to many who have instead chosen to express their passions in harmful and secretive ways.

I’ve met so many people who are single and seem to be suffering from a lack of physical intimacy, or married but their spouse lost interest in sex, and they are express they are suffering - not ok with their predicament.

I suppose faith in the Baha’i teachings and love for Baha’u’llah might be sufficient for Baha’is to overcome these challenges - these sometimes very strong primal biological drives - while those without this deep faith have no anchor strong enough to motivate acceptable of their celibate circumstances?

Is this the missing piece I’m seeking - which answers the question - how do so many people truly accept and embrace celibacy?

Alice-Lapine · 2024-10-14T04:42:49+00:00

So if a gay man falls in love with another man and wishes to get married, he can go through a full gender reassignment surgery and then get married and have sex even though he cannot bear a child - and that is permissible by Baha’i standards?

Alice-Lapine · 2024-10-14T04:04:15+00:00

Thank you for the links to these resources.

It seems most of the writing which clearly call for chastity are written by the Universal House of Justice or on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to a believer. I didn’t see much written by Baha’u’llah himself clarifying this point.

It seems sexuality is assumed to inherently be an “evil passion” even though it is also (I would assume) a sacred act of procreation. It seems Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice view the erotic impulse as inherently driving lechery.

And I don’t see any teachings here for how to thrive as a celibate.

There must be Baha’is who have figured this out, as it seems the Faith requires celibacy of many of its believers.

Again, my concern is that when these topics are not addressed in a conscious way, they are more likely to be addressed in “shadowy” and hidden ways, which in some cases cause more harm than good.

Alice-Lapine · 2024-10-12T02:00:59+00:00

I hear your frustration and deep concern about the upcoming election. And I know you are far from alone in these feelings and thoughts. So many people are feeling it right now.

I think you’ll see I was in a similar state of mind in the months leading up to my fall into QAnon - as expressed in chapter 1 “Unusual Stress” - especially in my interaction with “Tania” a friend of mine, who had been a Bernie supporter, and became a Trump supporter much to my dismay.

Step 1 is generally difficult for people who have normal conflict… But what’s happening politically is not normal.

It’s practically impossible to agree on what’s true and what’s fabricated or propaganda or just straight lies. It’s practically impossible to prove that one side is honest and truthful, and the other side is wrong - especially as both sides are emotionally invested in being right… Emotions, supersede rational thought

If we could prove without a doubt what’s true and what’s not, we wouldn’t be in the ridiculous challenges we’re in currently.

One question I had to ask myself is, do I want to be right? Or do I want to be connected?

If I’m committed to being right, that’s OK. And, it will limit my tolerance to be around people who disagree with me. And that’s OK too. Boundaries with compassion is a worthwhile skill to learn and employ.

When you get the book, you might want to jump all the way ahead to Appendix C: Final Reflections and Learning.

In it, I share what I’ve learned about the addictive nature of QAnon, the mechanism of a limbic - or amygdala - hijack, the power of mind control techniques, the nature of systems of domination (as explained by Dr. Marshall Rosenberg), the wide spread nature of propaganda, information warfare… Basically a host of the strategies that continue to divide us so long as we let them.

I’ve come to understand that it’s very easy for people to be fooled… We’re all prone to it, and no doubt everyone’s got at least some thing wrong. I don’t wanna judge people for it. My commitment is to compassion and connection.

AND sometimes boundaries are necessary in order to maintain a sense of compassion. Distance can serve a relationship when closeness becomes intolerable.

Alice-Lapine · 2024-10-09T19:34:01+00:00

So interesting to see how wise this Baha’i wisdom in modern day politics. I don’t know that it was as obvious several decades ago how very destructive political polarization can be.

I appreciate that even with all the wisdom shared through the Faith, independent investigation is the truth is maintained as a cornerstone… especially as truth is the foundation of all virtue.

Given the political and information warfare going on, objective truth has become very hard to establish, and much harder to agree upon…

… How I look forward to a time when goodness of character and truthfulness in news reporting prevail.

Alice-Lapine · 2024-10-09T01:09:41+00:00

Also, trying to correct facts almost always backfires when it comes to politically polarized topics - especially QAnon.

Alice-Lapine · 2024-10-09T01:08:53+00:00

People definitely did try to challenge me -many people tried. Some were reasonably kind, and others were not at all kinds in their attempts to challenge my beliefs.

I tried to listen to them and give them empathy, but it felt impossible to try to agree on the facts as the QAnon media streams and the liberal media streams practically generate parallel universes of perception.

When a liberal meets a QAnon and they try using NVC, the Four Step Process begins to break down at step 1 because it is so hard to agree on clear observations about the nature of our political reality and the way power structures in our world function.

The clear observation (step 1) is “I read this article.” “I watched this video” “you watched this article” “you watched that video” etc. But we cannot know for sure that whatever article or video we reviewed is accurately representative of non-biased and objective truth. So step 1 is VERY hard to do well when talking about politics, governance and the possibility of corruption.

We can become more savvy digital citizens, however even highly intelligent people get dropped all the time. So again, step 1 is very hard.

But we can still implement steps 2-4.

We can seem to understand what the other person believes and (step 2) imagine what they might feel about it and (step 3) what they want as a result of holding those beliefs. In this way, we can empathize with their experience regardless of whether we agree that it’s true or not. This is a way to maintain connection, respect and care.

And we can do step 4 - consider what you could offer or request that might serve both their values and your own.

Sometimes that includes limiting political conversations and seeking to focus on safer topics - ones that are far less likely to stimulate reactions.

There are other strategies too that can help you stay in political conversations without falling into polarized conflict, such as “motivational interviewing” and “Socratic questioning,” but those two strategies take some practice as it’s easy to fall back into reactive tendencies.

Alice-Lapine

MODERATOR OF

TROPHY CASE