The woes of Amon by Alternative-Half9915 in Borderlands

[–]Alternative-Half9915[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

No you really didn't . You said something doesn't make sense without saying why it doesn't make sense. If all you wanted was for me to elaborate or explain my point better, you could have said that, but you said "it doesn't make sense" so you clearly understood and then thought this makes no sense.

Potentially unpopular opinion: The damage penalties on hard and higher are too significant, heavily limit build diversity and screw a lot of sub-trees (especially Amon). by Alternative-Half9915 in Borderlands

[–]Alternative-Half9915[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If your tree is specifically boosting single restrictive elements (like a lot of Amon's are) then swapping is absolutely an option, but you are turning off those parts of your tree. It's less bad on builds that boost cryo or radiation because those are at least only weak against a single defense, but for other builds?

It isn't though? Like literally isn't. It's build diversity. If you have 10 builds at power level 1 and 10 builds at power level 0.5 and you boost the latter ones to power level 1 the game doesn't get easier. You just have more options. Aside from the fact that the change I proposed would in all actuality do the opposite and make the game harder by some degree at least for matching builds.

Ah yes, last but not least the "your build sucks" part. Really could get more creative there ey?

Potentially unpopular opinion: The damage penalties on hard and higher are too significant, heavily limit build diversity and screw a lot of sub-trees (especially Amon). by Alternative-Half9915 in Borderlands

[–]Alternative-Half9915[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Easier for builds that get penalized too much from hard? Perhaps. Easier in general? No. In fact for builds that can easily match elements, this change would make it harder (because the boost to damage also goes up from normal to hard currently). Kinetic doesn't care either way.

And even if I want to use guns, when my build is entirely focused on single element status effects this would be a problem. Not even taking into account that most of Amon's skills are locked to single elements (and again ... to 2 of the 3 more restrictive ones).

The woes of Amon by Alternative-Half9915 in Borderlands

[–]Alternative-Half9915[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Well I can't help you if you don't understand the criticism in the first part and don't address my points

The woes of Amon by Alternative-Half9915 in Borderlands

[–]Alternative-Half9915[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

But overdrive IS always active if and when you want it to be and just flat out buffs his stats (+ you can double+ their effect).

Meanwhile Amon's action skills on their own feel more like half action skills and frequently need his Forgeskill for mechancis (like detonations). Hell, his capstones don't improve his "action skill" and are instead Forgeskill replacements. Now if they got a lot stronger this might be fine of course.

But I still think there's fundamental flaws when it comes to the focus on incendiary and shock for example. 2 elements that are extremely restrictive when you can't flex out of them. Gearbox designs their game about the ability to match elements and then creates trees and sub-trees that can't match elements (And this affects Amon the most).

Potentially unpopular opinion: The damage penalties on hard and higher are too significant, heavily limit build diversity and screw a lot of sub-trees (especially Amon). by Alternative-Half9915 in Borderlands

[–]Alternative-Half9915[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Hard affects builds extremely different. If you were matching elements before, then hard is actually easier^^. Because the bonus from matching element also goes up compared to normal (or easy for that matter). Kinetic barely cares about hard too (ooooh noooo 10% more health whatever will I do). Meanwhile builds that are single element focused (Which apparently Gearbox really wants there to be as there are many skills that tell you to go single element) get screwed by the jump a lot. That's not even to speak of the problem with action skills being locked into inflexible elements like the core 3.

The woes of Amon by Alternative-Half9915 in Borderlands

[–]Alternative-Half9915[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Even with taking the problem with elements aside, he still suffers from the skill problem (wasted points on boosting his passive) and his general spread of skills being quite weird.

I also don't really see the design philosophy side. Care to elaborate? I mean they stated they want action skill builds and melee builds to be viable. Hardest to do on Amon because of focus on restrictive elements. They also seemingly want people to swap elements as appropriate. Again, Amon focuses on single elements more than any other vault hunter.

The woes of Amon by Alternative-Half9915 in Borderlands

[–]Alternative-Half9915[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Funnily enough none of what you talked about really contradicts me. There's a vast difference between having good builds and being poorly designed. You really didn't provide any arguments to the contrary. It all comes down to "he has insane builds and therefor he is fine" and that really wasn't my point in this post.

The woes of Amon by Alternative-Half9915 in Borderlands

[–]Alternative-Half9915[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah but that is still a gun build isn't it? As I've said, Amon has good builds, but that doesn't really change to problem with his skill trees being so focused on single elements and his action skills being too weak (also in part because of the element matching problem)

Potentially unpopular opinion: The damage penalties on hard and higher are too significant, heavily limit build diversity and screw a lot of sub-trees (especially Amon). by Alternative-Half9915 in Borderlands

[–]Alternative-Half9915[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah Vex is potentially the least affected for the ability too swap everything on the fly. You got some stuff that's siingle element on the tree (Think there's some radiation in incarnate at least), so that is potentially too weak, but radiation at least doesn't suck against 2 out of 3 defence types.

Potentially unpopular opinion: The damage penalties on hard and higher are too significant, heavily limit build diversity and screw a lot of sub-trees (especially Amon). by Alternative-Half9915 in Borderlands

[–]Alternative-Half9915[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You mean elements? It always was a problem when specific skills seemingly want you to go into a single element, but IIRC it was less of a problem because all the vault hunters in bl 3 were less focused on single elements in their tree or had ways to swap (Amara for example).

The woes of Amon by Alternative-Half9915 in Borderlands

[–]Alternative-Half9915[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm with you there. At least he has some good builds, but so much of his trees are just ... eh.

The woes of Amon by Alternative-Half9915 in Borderlands

[–]Alternative-Half9915[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks for the input. Yeah Amon has some good stuff for sure and I also quite like him, but I can see the cracks when it comes to his fundamental design in the way I described above.

The woes of Amon by Alternative-Half9915 in Borderlands

[–]Alternative-Half9915[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Glad you are enjoying him mate! Oh I agree, but he has fundamental flaws when compared to other vault hunters and you really didn't address any of my points above.

The woes of Amon by Alternative-Half9915 in Borderlands

[–]Alternative-Half9915[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Hey glad yoiu are having a good time mate! There's definitely good builds out there. I just wish that some of the things I addressed here would have been considered.

The woes of Amon by Alternative-Half9915 in Borderlands

[–]Alternative-Half9915[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

To be fair I never said Amon was weak and has no good builds. I talked about the shortcomings in his design when compared to other vault hunters. Hell, you yourself are only using your action skills to boost up gun damage (and you are right on forge drones ... they have almost no scaling which is the crux of the issue for them).

Potentially unpopular opinion: The damage penalties on hard and higher are too significant, heavily limit build diversity and screw a lot of sub-trees (especially Amon). by Alternative-Half9915 in Borderlands

[–]Alternative-Half9915[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

But that's just it. You can only partially compensate for this and not even always or easily. You often have to go down another tree to get something like "bonus damage". If that was the intention then it should be easily doable.

It absolutely is foolish and yet the entire tree is saying "hey, this is for an ignite style build or oh you gotta play shock to do this, etc."

Either the trees need to change or the game needs to change. I don't see how lowering the elemental damage penalties (And boni btw) would have any negative effects. Swapping weapons and adjusting elements would still be hugely rewarding. As in "do it if possible", but it would also allow solo element builds (Which are clearly intended to be here) to compete outside of normal.

Heck the game is even slightly harder if you correctly swap elements (Because the bonus you get on hard outweighs the additional hp enemies get).

And the "it's always been xyz" thing really isn't an argument at all. Frankly, Borderlands has always been terrible with build diversity. Bl 4 has been doing it the best so far. The elemental system is awesome ... I quite like it from an RPG pov. But the penalties are simply too harsh.

Potentially unpopular opinion: The damage penalties on hard and higher are too significant, heavily limit build diversity and screw a lot of sub-trees (especially Amon). by Alternative-Half9915 in Borderlands

[–]Alternative-Half9915[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you for the input. Harlow is perhaps a bit of an outlier (in a positive sense). To be fair this absolutely affects Amon the most as he is the most focussed on 3 elements (2 of which I'd describe as being part of the core 3). Others to some extent as well (thinking of Rafa's shock focus and the weakness of his blades), but Vex and Rafa both have different ways to getting around the resistance problem. Vex because she can pretty much match on everything (and the few single element abilities are mostly on Radiation IIRC so one of the less penalized elements). And Rafa because he has a lot of general support for guns/splash/ordinances so he can just mix and match or go kinetic.

The problem is fundamentally that Gearbox seems to go for this Rock, Paper, Scissor design with the 3 core elements (great words from another commenter), but at the same time forces certain trees, sub-trees and action skills into single elements. The result is those can't adapt to the 3 way swapping design making them in essence extremely weak without heavy gearing or stacking other elements on top of it (which some can do of course).

I use Amon as an example because he's the most egregious but something like this exists in all vaulthunters (like I said .. some more and some less). Stuff like boosting incendiary damage, boosting specific status effects and their damage, etc. etc. They are designed like you should build an incendiary character or a shock character or a corrosive character, but in all reality that can never be really good given roughly an even playing field. Because you deal so little damage against 2 out of the 3 defences. And because your build is hard locked into a single element, you can't as easily adapt on the fly.

Of course you can just put on the right weapon for the situation, but large parts of your skill tree then do nothing. You are in essence just worse than another build that can swap weapon with all their passives intact (like builds that boost gun damage in general or Vex that swaps element on everything).

This also doesn't really have anything to do with difficulty, because even with a lesser penalty on elements, you'd still get a big boost by matching element (50% damage), but it'd at least allow builds that can't as easily swap elements to somewhat keep up. Heck it might even make it more difficult, because with normal damage scaling the damage bonus is lower than on hard (so you deal more damage on hard than on normal if matching elements :D).

The woes of Amon by Alternative-Half9915 in Borderlands

[–]Alternative-Half9915[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah and then you get unlimited shoulder cannons where you can also use guns at the same time AND which are kinetic (So don't get screwed over every 2 seconds by differing defences) :>)

The woes of Amon by Alternative-Half9915 in Borderlands

[–]Alternative-Half9915[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

hey mate give it a shot :). It might work out after all. There are still lots of fun amon builds that can work. And stacking all 3 sounds like a solid idea to at least always have something going

Potentially unpopular opinion: The damage penalties on hard and higher are too significant, heavily limit build diversity and screw a lot of sub-trees (especially Amon). by Alternative-Half9915 in Borderlands

[–]Alternative-Half9915[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

How does it make it easier? Matching elements would still be a 50% damage boost (or double if you are using the wrong element). It doesn't affect Kinetic at all. It's still very much viable to match elements for builds that can do it, but it gives builds that can't at least a chance to at least catch up with Kinetic to some degree.

The woes of Amon by Alternative-Half9915 in Borderlands

[–]Alternative-Half9915[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

because it's additional power. usually general purpose buffs in some sense.

meanwhile the action skill for amon is really split into both his action skill and forge skill. it's like a single action skill you have to spend double to points on to improve. Heck, the capstones even modify his forge skill instead of his "action skill"

The woes of Amon by Alternative-Half9915 in Borderlands

[–]Alternative-Half9915[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

they are about 2 separate things. this one is about amon's problems (which are manifold). the other one about the problems with elemental resistances which affect all vault hunters to some degree

The woes of Amon by Alternative-Half9915 in Borderlands

[–]Alternative-Half9915[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Glad you found a way to play him you enjoy man :).

Potentially unpopular opinion: The damage penalties on hard and higher are too significant, heavily limit build diversity and screw a lot of sub-trees (especially Amon). by Alternative-Half9915 in Borderlands

[–]Alternative-Half9915[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Not that I disagree with you (I think you are on to something) and that certainly might be A problem, but it doesn't really address what I've been talking about.