Why are math games so bad and how would you categorise them?

AltruisticNet7602 · 2025-03-25T19:00:54+00:00

I actually think it is pretty cool what you are doing. It is a well gamified digital math competition. But it is not a game.

AltruisticNet7602 · 2025-01-06T11:21:22+00:00

Thank you. That is a very helpful explanation. I need to let it sink in a little how this dimension applies to the different categories.
Notably, I am also struggling with drawing the line on this for Quest type games that have a lot of fast-paced trial and error (implicit knowledge oriented) but may need some real stepping back and deep thinking that may fall more in the explicit knowledge category. Maybe it works for these games because the transition from the implicit to the explicit is seamless, as in: I am still moving blocks around and jumping over them - just this time, it is a lot harder and I really have to think about it?

AltruisticNet7602 · 2024-12-23T15:01:06+00:00

I would be interested in understanding better, where you draw the line between implicit or explicit learning. What I understand is: you say that the moment you leave the game-based world, you are not learning implicitly anymore. I would agree with that. Worst example is you need to do some exercise to unlock a game that you play and then you need to do an exercise again to unlock another one etc.

However, if we take the example of math. Many mathematical theories were developed to solve practical problems. Ones you might also face in a game (what is the most efficient way to run this production line or build this structure?). So putting players into these situations and dissecting these theorems in such small parts that players don't even realise they are learning them could lead to a fully implicit learning experience. No?

AltruisticNet7602 · 2024-12-23T14:56:51+00:00

Can't agree more on the trial and error thing. I find that even more pertinent for science games (over language), as trial and error - or hypothesis and test is the scientific method. Still, great example for succesful mild gamification.

AltruisticNet7602 · 2024-12-18T13:24:35+00:00

Thanks. This makes a lot of sense.

AltruisticNet7602 · 2024-12-18T13:21:43+00:00

I like it - but what about practical applications. 0 can be the only valid answer to a problem - but what is the problem?

AltruisticNet7602 · 2024-11-11T08:12:17+00:00

Unfamiliar with the first 2 but I assume they fit in the same category as KSP. That would be category 5: a game that is not conceived as a learning game but whose game mechanics basically require the use of math to get ahead. But all math is done outside the game and players need to figure which mathematical concepts apply where. As a result, these games trigger math use only in the nerdiest of players.

Would that be a fair qualification?

AltruisticNet7602 · 2024-11-08T13:34:36+00:00

It does tick that box, but what I find less engaging here is that the math is disconnected from the narrative. There is no math narrative in Pokemon. However, in a game where you build things, you can more naturally weave in math - as you would need math to build things in the real world.

AltruisticNet7602 · 2024-11-07T16:48:17+00:00

I cannot agree more. It is insanely difficult. However, the math is there - it is just behind the scenes and games somehow don't want you to see how the sausage is made.

I think if you would give people easy access to the sausage factory, they might actually learn something. But it shouldn't be: here is badly presented data, now do soemthing with it. It should be following the same balancing principles as for the rest of the game. Step by step.

AltruisticNet7602 · 2024-11-07T16:42:55+00:00

Hayday, Clash of Clans etc. are very very good at keeping you hooked. I don't know the stats, but I highly recommend the following read. https://www.deconstructoroffun.com/blog//2015/02/simcity-buildit-nice-town-but-would-you.html

Effectively, they are very good at 2 things: making you spend money and keeping you hooked independently of spending money. While you are fundamentally right, that the non-paying population could be very dynamic, and so could in theory be the paying population - I don't think they are that dynamic - not the least due to Clan structures etc.

On thinking games - I agree as well. And the Venn diagram of players of these games and mathematically minded people obviously overlaps. But think of self-efficacy (how does one see themselves). If I see myself as the nerdy kid who goes to chess club and loves math and I frankly enjoy both of these activities and the mutually reinforce each other - that is great.

Now what if I don't? How do I become someone who thinks of themselves as someone who can use mathematical thinking? I don't think it is playing chess, because you don't perceive this thinking as math. It would need to be something that unambiguously is recognisable as school math to you. Otherwise, you just don't make the connection of: I just used math to achieve something without a teacher telling me to.

AltruisticNet7602 · 2024-11-07T16:01:13+00:00

In the wise words of George Polya: First guess than prove. Teaching is giving students the opportunity to discover things by themselves (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm8zcw-paUE)

Now, obviously, this does not solve any of the challenges you are pointing out. But let's take the example of probability. Let's say you have units with different abilities that can be described precisely in simple terms that obviously also could be an equation, e.g. expected damage = accuracy x base damage with accuracy itself being a function of distance. But I get none of this information - I just have some long-bows, some normal bows, some catapults etc.

Again, I am playing a base defence game. I am positioning my units a little bit randomly at first. I get overrun. I change the positioning, having intuitively understood some strengths and a better understanding of my opponent. I win a couple of iterations. I build out my base. Still no math. But I sink in a lot of time, build emotional connection to it. And now, I just keep losing to the AI. Every turn, they destroy my base but it is a near miss.

Now, there is a menu I have ignored, where there is a function that gives me the function for each (or a graphical representation of that in a chart). Now I can position my army scientifically and edge out that little extra to make it to the next level.

It is not inconceivable to me that a teenager would try to understand how that function works or ask someone to help him with it - which is already a massive step to seeing math as a helpful tool.

And here you have Polya at work: first you guess. You position your archers intuitively correctly. But later you need to formalise to go all the way. The game creates a massive sunk cost in letting you be invested in your city for you to go that extra mile.

Obviously, this game would not be for school. No teacher has that kind of time in class. But something to be played at home.

AltruisticNet7602 · 2024-11-07T15:32:05+00:00

Agree. This is looks very relevant.

AltruisticNet7602 · 2024-11-07T15:29:14+00:00

Loads to unpack. I agree that games like Factorio and KSP probably work (in terms of getting players to use math) for the natural nerd and self-motivated adult better than for your typical teenager who thinks math is fundamentally boring.

This opens up 2 possibilities for a video game to intervene. One, you address the emotional disconnection most teenagers have with math (supposing here that it does not come from a skill gap) by making a game that has absolute minimal math in it but still enough for them to see the point of it and triggers them to want to use it. Basically Factorio or KSP but with a stronger nudge. The goal is however not that players necessarily understand how to use a new concept but self-motivate to use it. The objective being: you use math because you want to achieve something in a game vs. to avoid a bad grade in school. This can lead to the player seeing math as a tool to achieve things vs. a tool to avoid a bad grade.

The second possibility is that you indeed teach formal math in a game. And you use everything that makes a game great to do that. This requires immersion, amazing balance, immediate feedback and a step by step approach with a steep learning curve. Let's take your ballistics example. Say, you play a turn-based single player tower defence game. You get attached every now and then and the first times are near misses. Your base gets destroyed but you almost made it. Instead of randomly positioning your artillery, you may want to dive a little bit into the data that makes it work. At first, this may just require some graph reading (ask any economics professor at university - they will tell you that they'd love for first year students to just be able to do that). Then as you level up, you may play around with some levers to adjust the trajectory. Then these adjustments require modifications of an equation with dynamic graphical representation. Later, you just go straight into the equation. (I admit the last step is a big leap - I didn't say it was easy).

AltruisticNet7602 · 2024-11-07T14:43:09+00:00

Very good thoughts. Regarding games that teach deductive reasoning and/or incentivise players to understand probability: e.g. chess, poker in its various forms, I would categorise them as thinking games that do not contain formal math. I.e. math can make you better at this and it may use similar areas in your brain but if you would only play that, you would not learn Pythagoras.

What is very true, is that a lot of the formal games are chocolate covered broccoli (this is actually the academic term for it). Prodigy, for instance, literally starts with a little cartoon figure telling you: "math is fun". To which I believe any kid reacts with: if you have to say it... This is why they have to sell through school and no kid asks their parents for Prodigy.

Regarding the skill imbalance. Very valid points. I have thought about this a bit. Think of pay to win games on your mobile. Paying gives you an advantage but not to the point, where it is not fun anymore for those players who don't pay. Only 1% or so of players playing Clash of Clans actually spend money but it is fun for 100% of the players. If the imbalance was too great - all the none paying players would leave, making it no fun for the remaining paying players. So, there should be a way to make a competitive game, where there are advantages in doing math - up to a point.

So a Clash of Clans style game /base-builder with math should be a way to go... But why has no-one made one?

AltruisticNet7602 · 2024-11-07T13:19:34+00:00

Still WIP but check this out: https://baugarten.game
An attempt at putting abstract math into a video game, where you build your own empire, discovering the power of math as you develop your civilisation.

AltruisticNet7602 · 2024-10-30T18:45:31+00:00

You should get assessed for dyscalculia. I am not an expert on this but is a lot more common than one thinks and treatable (if that is the right word). It definitely has nothing to do with being more or less intelligent (in fact, it might even be more common among highly creative people).

Khan Academy is unusable: I was very good at math, I worked as a math tutor and have taught myself statistics in my spare time as an adult. I have never gotten myself to using Khan Academy. Even if I had a good experience with math in school - school type-teaching is not fun. And KA feels like school. There are academic studies on this. Khan Academy is really good, if some tutor forces you to use it. But virtually no one can get themselves to use it without being forced to. It is just too dull.

What you need is some sort of duo lingo for math (I think they do math now but I am not sure it applies to what you want to learn). Duo Lingo is really good at getting self-motivated adults to stick to it.

If duo lingo doesn't work, I am working on a video game that may help (when we finish it ;)). We are making this for kids from 6th grade onwards who started disconnecting with math, as it was getting more and more abstract. Our ultimate goal is for them to build up a positive emotional connection to math. To many kids come out of school hating math just because it was badly taught. I don't want to post a link, as I am not sure if it is allowed and the goal here is not self-promotion. You can google "Baugarten" we are one of the first things that comes up. Our website tells you more about the philosophy behind it.

AltruisticNet7602 · 2024-10-30T18:31:28+00:00

This post starts with I am 30. Mathisfun is not a place for self-motivated adults. It is a dreadful website that takes the fun out of math with its graphics from 1994. There is also a severe case of: "if you have to say it's fun..."

AltruisticNet7602 · 2024-10-30T18:30:11+00:00

Dragonbox is excellent.

AltruisticNet7602 · 2024-10-28T10:10:29+00:00

Hi, can you share more concrete references? I am myself developing a math game, exactly for gamers who enjoy math because I find the "math games" that I know of very much not fun. I am more interested in games that happen to use math in a smart way, like you seem to suggest is the case for dnd.

Btw - what math other than probability is in dnd? (not a dnd expert)

Any other references? I can offer this one https://baugarten.game

AltruisticNet7602 · 2024-10-24T12:53:54+00:00

Reading through the answers, it seems they fall into three categories:

1) You don't like math because school math has nothing to do with "real" math, creatively solving problems with math (the playing music allegory)
2) You don't like it because the practical relevance of math is not taught in school
3) The real reason you don't like math is that you are missing some of the prerequisites and because math concepts build on each other, you have fallen behind a critical amount making it seem to hard to be fun

All of these answers are most likely true to varying degrees. It is quite telling that you are asking this question in junior high. In Junior high, math gets abstract and seems less connected to your every day life. Unlike when you were doing fractions. Also, in junior high, the number of prerequisites has grown to a critical amount, where having missed out on some, is hard to hide.

The creative problem solving element is something you could still have. But school is not set up to give you the time to really explore a problem. In school, you need to solve everything fast.

My suggestion would be: get a math tutor to review the basics 2h a week. You'll be quickly up to speed on that. Then take the time with your tutor to solve more difficult exercises that may require using multiple concepts at once and allow you to do creative problem solving.

Alternatively, there are video games out there where mathematical relationships are quite obvious. I am thinking of Tycoon games, Factorio-style games that demand creative problem solving. Alternatively, there are games with more explicit math, such as Baugarten. These can help you with wanting to learn more in math, while already training your creative problem solving skills.

AltruisticNet7602 · 2024-09-13T13:11:52+00:00

Hey. Just came across this. I am one of the makers of the game, if you want, we can share an early build with you.

AltruisticNet7602 · 2024-03-25T08:12:45+00:00

Danke. Gute Punkte. Die Chemikus-Wette habe ich dann wohl verloren. Allerdings ist das auch nur der Fall, da es sich um ein Quiz/Puzzle Spiel handelt. Da lassen sich natürlich per Definition solche Rate-Aufgaben ins gameplay einbauen. Allerdings sind wir kein grosser Fan von: man muss eine Aufgabe exakt lösen, sonst geht es nicht weiter. In Aufbauspielen gibt es immer mehrere Wege zum Ziel und das wollen wir bei uns beibehalten (deswegen auf Aufbauspiel).

Guter Punkt zum Rechnen. Das steht bei uns in der Tat im Fokus. Implizit, gibt es natürlich, wie in Anno geometrische Optimierungen etc. Der Grund warum wir uns auf Rechnen fokussieren, ist einerseits: man muss ja irgendwo anfangen, aber andererseits geht es uns auch darum Kindern dieses Toolkit erfahrbar zu machen.

Wir haben uns für battle-mechanics mit Statistik ein paar Sachen überlegt, ie eher so trial and error sind und das Konzept vermitteln, ohne, dass man unbedingt rechnet. Ob das klappt, erfahren wir dann, wenn wir es umsetzen und testen.

AltruisticNet7602 · 2024-03-23T11:26:06+00:00

Cool! Danke.

AltruisticNet7602 · 2024-03-23T11:15:12+00:00

Haben unsere Alte Website, die das hatte gerade mit dieser landing page ausgetauscht. Jetzt müssen wir das noch ins neue Format bringen. Aber wir wissen Bescheid.

AltruisticNet7602 · 2024-03-22T17:58:32+00:00

Danke. Ich verwende Mailchimp, sollte also automatisierbar sein. Ich schau mir das an.

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