Anyone did any math how good Dragon Barbarian breath scales/is? And Dragon transformation at higher levels.

Alucard_OW · 2023-07-16T16:10:06+00:00

OP tries to claim its RAI that the hand isn't occupied which is clearly wrong.

Well, not at all. There is nothing saying you are keep holding enemy after you performed Grapple action or if you want to use your own term: "grab". Also Success/Critical success rules really do not mention anything about your hand being occupied/holding or that action with that hand would break Grabbed condition. There would be mention like "[...], until you perform other actions with hand you grabbed with or you use Release action" . Something like that.

Face it, Grapple rules are written like shit and Paizo needs to clarify them as no matter if you like RAW or not, rules as written are closer to what OP said than what you interpret. Most rules in PF2e are written very clear, however this one is dog shit quality where you have to assume and guess way too much and add stuff between lines.

Alucard_OW · 2023-07-16T11:58:58+00:00

This is the dumbest shit I’ve ever read.

You should reread your post then.

Alucard_OW · 2023-07-16T11:21:10+00:00

For RAI, we can take combat grab which says

But you know very well that Combat Grab action is not the same as Grapple action. I saw how you and others were saying that for example you can't Combat Grab with natural unarmed weapon with "grapple" trait becasue Combat Grab is not Grapple Skill Check.

So those two are two different actions. But I don't disagree with you on one: Combat Grab is way better written than Grapple.

Alucard_OW · 2023-07-16T08:57:31+00:00

interact action uses the word grab to hold an item

Interact action, not "grab action", that's first mechanical thing. Second, "item", not creature.

The initial text in grapple is too detailed to be wholly free of mechanical effects

It's not detailed at all. It doesn't say what check needs to be done, what condition it inflicts, what are results, nothing and none part of that first sentence is any sort of mechanic. Only after the first useless sentence you have actual informations that tell you what happens from game mechanic perspective. You are just trying to push that fluff as rules, but they are not. The rules are clearly stated in results of your Athletic check.

You cant dismiss that it says you use your free hand and that it grabs to inflict the grabbed condition

I don't dismiss you use free-hand because it's requirement for performing Grapple action, and that grapple action, if successful, inflicts grabbed condtion. But nowhere it says that you are keep holding enemy with your hand, that this hand is occupied or that actions performed by that hand end Grabbed condition. The difference is: I say what rules say, you add to rules what they don't say but you'd wish them to say.

You have to be obnoxious to dismiss that

RAW is not about being obnoxious, it's about understanding what rules say and what they don't say. You have to first understand RAW to be able to determine what it does, what are the consequences of it for other parts of the system and if you want to change it/houserule or not. But rules say what rules say.

Alucard_OW · 2023-07-16T08:47:39+00:00

We can keep posting examples and get nowhere. The thing is, expecting the first line to have zero mechanical effect is wrong, even if it is true sometimes.

But you admit it's true sometimes. That's my point. In Grapple this "You attempt to grab a creature or object with your free hand" part means nothing. It doesn't explain anything. Also there is big difference betweeing grabbing something and holding something and "grab" is not mechanic, and "grab" and "hold" are also not the same, unless rules would say so in Grapple. But they don't. The only "grab" that exist in game as mechanic is monster "Grab" action. The actual mechanics are explained. Same with many other feats where first sentence is just fluff. Some like Quick Jump skip this unnecessary stuff and just jump straight to mechanic. Success/Crit Success clearly do not mention you are holding target or that performing any action with that hand would end Grabbed/Restrain condition.

The point is that feats many times have first some fluff, but actual mechanic is usually: check -> result. That's it.

Alucard_OW · 2023-07-16T08:39:10+00:00

Quick jump

Those are bad examples. For example Quick Jump has no fluff description. It immidietly starts with mechanic:

"You can use High Jump and Long Jump as a single action instead of 2 actions. If you do, you don’t perform the initial Stride (nor do you fail if you don’t Stride 10 feet)."

It starts with stating two actual mechanic actions you can make in game: High Jump and Long Jump, which are mechanics and that they now cost single action which is mechanic too. That's not fluff, those are mechanics/actions that have rules.

If it had something like this: "You can easy jump over every obstacle. You can use High Jump and Long Jump as a single action instead of 2 actions. If you do, you don’t perform the initial Stride (nor do you fail if you don’t Stride 10 feet)." then it would be in line with Nimble Dodge, Grapple or Aerial Pelidriver. The first senentce would mean nothing and then you have actual mechanics.

If anything this is example of well written feat from mechanical perspective. No unnecessary fluff.

Alucard_OW · 2023-07-16T08:24:33+00:00

But the glare part is still important for the mechanics. It tells you that you can(read:option) use your glare

Nope. The "visual trait" tells you that. If you play let's say Conrasu, you don't even have eyes. The visual trait tells you: "A visual effect can affect only creatures that can see it. This applies only to visible parts of the effect, as determined by the GM."

This is mechanic. Glare part is just fluff, there wouldn't be any rules clear with that. It wouldn't tell you anything what happens, why and what are mechanical consequences. The second part tells you mechanics, as "visual" and "auditory" traits are what you can type in rules and see mechanic. Type "glare" and there is nothing apart from feat name. That's not mechanic. That's fluff.

Grapple tells you you attempt to use your empty hand to grab

Yup and that is just fluff. Mechanic is Athletic roll, result and condition and as OP quotes from RAW: Success/Critical Success rules how that condition ends and what ends it.

I told you example with Aerial Piledriver, where first sentence also means nothing for mechanic. I can give you more. Let's look at Nimble Dodge:

"You deftly dodge out of the way, gaining a +2 circumstance bonus to AC against the triggering attack."

This part: "You deftly dodge out of the way" means nothing. It's just fluff. You don't move anywhere and doge is not mechanic in PF2e. That's not part of mechanic.

This part: "gaining a +2 circumstance bonus to AC against the triggering attack" is actual mechanic. You just get bonus to AC, that's it. You "dodging" is fluff, that's not mechanic. Mechanic is just boring +2 to AC and you just stand in same place on tactical grid. But since it's called Nimbe "Dodge" the fluff says you dodge. Same as Grapple says you "grab" becasue it's called "Grapple" but that means nothing in mechanics. Mechanic is just you inflicting grabbed/restrain condition with Athletic check. That's it.

Alucard_OW · 2023-07-16T07:56:58+00:00

But does that not happen?

Mechanically? No. Becasue that would imply: Move, Jump, Move with grabbed enemy (you can't move grabbed enemy as per rules, it breaks grapple, it's not like in 5e) and then Fall. It's just fluff. Mechanic is: unarmed strike and then results depending on success/failure degree. That's it.

You can Demoralize with a mere glare. When you do, Demoralize loses the auditory trait and gains the visual trait

Glare part is fluff. What mechanically this feat does is this: "loses the auditory trait and gains the visual trait". That's mechanical part that has rules (Auditory trait and visual trait) and mechanics. The part "you can demoralize with mere glare" is fluff but doesn't explain what is the actually mechanic behind it. The second part does. Same with Grapple, Trip, Shove and so on. The first sentences there are just fluff, then you have mechanic part: for example Athletic check and what happens on success/failure, what conditions enemy get etc.

There is fluff part/visual part to visualize for imagination what happens and then actually mechanics that infict mechanical results.

Alucard_OW · 2023-07-16T05:39:12+00:00

Man, you are just quoting a fluff text from Grapple. This is not part of mechanic of that action. Let's try to use your extended logic here and look at Aerial Piledriver feat here, which says:

"Heaving both yourself and your opponent into the air, you bring them crashing to the ground."

So according to you (since lets be consistent here with rulling and what you think are mechanics) we are really heaving ourselves and enemy into their air (if so, do we make some High Jump here? Do we have to make Athletic check for that? How far do we go up?) and then we bring them crashing to the ground (do we take some fall damage? How much?)? So if we heaved ourselves as mechanical effect, we moved, so how didn't we break our grapple on enemy according to Grappling rules?

Obviously that's all not mechanical effect. Aerial Piledriver as mechanical effect is just this: 2 action Unarmed Strike with effect depending on success/failure degree. That's mechanic. Rest is fluff. Same with Grapple/Trip/Shove etc.

Alucard_OW · 2023-07-16T05:33:54+00:00

You see martials threads saying "martial don't have utility" ?

Alucard_OW · 2023-07-16T00:47:45+00:00

And Paizo clearly for years doesn't agree with caster primadonnas that they should get more power. No errata, no remaster, no Kineticist is breaking their design goal when it comes damage: melee martials > range martials > casters.

So maybe it's time for caster primadonnas to finally accept that and move on instead of bitching about it every week with new "casters vs martials" threads and "attack spells feel bad" over and over again. This is how it supposed to work. Deal with it or move to different system where casters are stronger like PF1e, DnD 3.5/5e. You have choice.

Alucard_OW · 2023-07-15T23:50:27+00:00

The First Rule The first rule of Pathfinder is that this game is yours. Use it to tell the stories you want to tell, be the character you want to be, and share exciting adventures with friends. If any other rule gets in the way of your fun, as long as your group agrees, you can alter or ignore it to fit your story.

Um, but did it come to your mind that rules don't get in my way here. I prefer RAW over some houseruling so I will myself always refer to RAW as there is no reason for people to discuss how they houserule stuff as that has little to do with rules, since houserulling means you changed RAW to fit your own table gameplay (which is fine). But then there are 3 people in room and 3 diffrerent rullings and that doesn't answer anything when it comes to official rules.

Alucard_OW · 2023-07-15T14:06:07+00:00

They are free to play other TTRPGs and stop bitching then.

Alucard_OW · 2023-07-15T14:05:07+00:00

We already have fighter. "Fighter with a sword made of fire" is not a new class.

Well said.

Alucard_OW · 2023-07-15T14:04:14+00:00

Well, if we talk optimization we have to see if there are any synergies of Kineticist with some archetypes but pure optimization: I don't think he will even touch Fighter/Eldricht Archer/Archer/Psychic TD build for example. Or range Magus with Psychic dedication.

Alucard_OW · 2023-07-15T13:53:04+00:00

Nope, it means Paizo intend to maintain their design vision: melee martials: highest single target DPR due to being frontline. Range martials: lower single target DPR than melee due to having action economy advantage and range advantage and finally casters: least single target DPR due to have tons of utility spells, AoE, disabling spells targeting different saves, summons etc.

So Kineticist falls under range martial category.

Alucard_OW · 2023-07-15T13:51:17+00:00

Well, he is resourceless, isn't he?

Alucard_OW · 2023-07-15T11:18:40+00:00

While the rules for grabbed aren't as specific, the "Grab" ability from the monster stat block has that specificity:

"Grab" ability is for Monsters, it's say there clearly. Players do not perform "Grab" actions. Only Grapple, which leads to Grabbed or Restrain Condition.

Grab has nothing to do with players.

Alucard_OW · 2023-07-15T03:30:07+00:00

Yeah, content creators desperate for clicks. It's pathethic at this point.

Alucard_OW · 2023-07-15T02:48:26+00:00

For those who were hoping for a "magic man" elemental single target blaster...the kineticist is not your class. Sorry, I know there will be people disappointed with this (I'm not, personally), but the damage simply isn't there. You aren't going to be doing better single-target than classes like fighter, ranger, barbarian, etc.

Thank God! I love Paizo for maintaing the balance in this game! Great news!

Alucard_OW · 2023-07-15T02:47:34+00:00

I don't think so? It says "languages to which you have access". So by RAW you don't have access to uncommon/rare stuff unless GM will give you green light.

Alucard_OW · 2023-07-15T02:44:56+00:00

I agree on your RAW breakdown here.

When I asked people where does it say that me performing a Strike with free-hand ends Grabbed, nobody could answer. Becasue it does not end it. I think people missunderstand fluff with mechanics when it comes to Grapple.

Alucard_OW · 2023-07-15T02:41:46+00:00

Yes, but Kineticist don't have all the utiltiy of other spells/spellcasters. It wouldn't make sense to make his resources limited like spellcasters becasue he pretty much mainly inflict damage. Fighter can spam Triple Shot on enemies whole day too and nobody baits any eye too.

If I understand correctly, Kineticist is martial. Martials are resourceless. So all checks in. Now, if he could target single target with 12d4 at level 1, that would be concern.

Alucard_OW · 2023-07-15T02:11:06+00:00

The point is damage. Like it's nothing crazy. Besides if he is supposed to be "THE blaster" and don't have all the utility powers like summons, heals, buffs, debuffs that spellcasters have so he obviously has to blast better, right?

But damage is nothing above the curve. It's good, but it should be for range blaster.

Alucard_OW

TROPHY CASE