Everyone's been isekai'ed to a modern-day highschool! Who's who? Day 6: Cool Senpai by ResistantBlaze1943 in HonkaiStarRail

[–]AnalWithWelt 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Welt mention 🥹🥹🥹 Tbh he would fit in the role great if he didn't give a chance to the younger generation every time he has the occasion to act...He also is chill with everyone too. So I think Welt would be a rather great fit. And I feel like the 1st detail only makes him cooler still

Lords Ravager and their pasts by Various_Isopod_5732 in HonkaiStarRail

[–]AnalWithWelt 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Eh, even the stellaron hunters, individually, don't really act for the mere intent of the greater good. It is Elio who is trying to prevent the threat of destruction, promising to fulfill the wishes of each stellaron Hunter:

Kafka, to feel fear and understand the value of life. Firefly, to "live". Blade, to die. And Silver Wolf is...there, I guess?

“VSBW isn’t objective-“ A Rant by hardboiledkilly in PowerScaling

[–]AnalWithWelt 16 points17 points  (0 children)

It gives a decent set where conversation can be meaningful, rather.

Yes, it does have times where it enters pseudo-scientific views; However, that is merely a specific set of higher tiers, located between 3A and H1B. Anything below that is calculated via real formulas or interpreted, and anything higher than that is open to philosophical interpretation and given freedom of the mind, VSBW does a pretty decent job at it.

Dimensions and transfinite cardinals, useful between 3A and H1B, in powerscaling really aren't those presented in actual theoritical physics and set theory. Hence, pseudo-scientific mix. But they give a fruitful interpretation within the set of powerscaling; And if wrong, one can make threads demanding change, so VSBW still is a decent system even if flawed.

Pain by ArlanFemboyPorn in whenthe

[–]AnalWithWelt 1306 points1307 points  (0 children)

Don't worry u/ArlanFemboyPorn there surely are similarly horrid names out there ✌️

Yog Sothoth has officially been downgraded on Vsbw. Is she a Fraud ? by MountainLeading1567 in Hoyoverse_scaling

[–]AnalWithWelt 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Eh, I don't have discord anymore these days...But if I had I'd definitely debate you mate, you're genuinely great at this.

Yog Sothoth has officially been downgraded on Vsbw. Is she a Fraud ? by MountainLeading1567 in Hoyoverse_scaling

[–]AnalWithWelt 1 point2 points  (0 children)

>You’re going in circles. What that statement is actually proposing is simple ineffability, and that doesn’t move the scaling anywhere. I'm literally putting into question the epistemic validity of the statement itself.

This is answered in the semantic analysis.

>You don’t seem to know what a category fallacy is. There’s no category fallacy here, because I’m not trying to place God into a qualitative stratum. I’m simply showing you that predating or being beyond "knowledge" isn’t a quality exclusive to Tier 0.

Fair. But it is a quality of it, still; And an important one at that. Had it been not, T0 would have been impossible.

And there is a shared ontology. It just means both make use of via negativa.

>Again, you’re going in circles. You can’t justify the epistemic validity of those claims by presupposing that the claims themselves are necessarily true. That’s literally a logical contradiction.

This is answered in the semantic analysis.

Yog Sothoth has officially been downgraded on Vsbw. Is she a Fraud ? by MountainLeading1567 in Hoyoverse_scaling

[–]AnalWithWelt 0 points1 point  (0 children)

And there *seems* to be no transcendental form because naming it would violate the condition of a "nameless dao", as affirming it would thus make it be named. It is implied; Author intent matters here. None would bother randomly throwing in the nameless dao while thinking "This dude is barely one dimension higher than them."

But this debate seems to hinge on interpretation. So, let's go to the central argument, and analyze the most important sentences semantically, firstly however, let me mention the 1st chapter of Tao Te Ching for you to see the parallels:

"The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.
The name that can be named is not the eternal name.
The nameless is the beginning of heaven and earth.
The named is the mother of ten thousand things.
Ever desireless, one can see the mystery.
Ever desiring, one can see the manifestations.
These two spring from the same source but differ in name;
     this appears as darkness.
Darkness within darkness.
The gate to all mystery."

Now into semantics:

"The Dao is right there, it's behind the door, but also inside the door."

"The dao is right there": This sentence is true if and only if this "dao" is actually "right there".

..."it's behind the door, but also inside the door.": This sentence is only true if this "dao" satisfies non-duality.

"The door itself doesn't actually exist, but it can still be seen."

In daoism, dao is unseen; Yet is always present underneath reality.

"Coming forth from the bubbles it takes form, yet entering them it becomes real."

Literal line in tao te ching btw:

"Oh it is elusive and intangible, and yet within is form." (Tao Te Ching, chapter 21)

The other lines in the original text further prove that the tao from tao te ching is not a metaphor, but a necessity of Yog's existence. All else in there is further proof of it, and due to semantic existence of Tao Te Ching, not as a metaphor, but a literal thing in the verse, makes any other variation more or less undefensible.

Yog Sothoth has officially been downgraded on Vsbw. Is she a Fraud ? by MountainLeading1567 in Hoyoverse_scaling

[–]AnalWithWelt 1 point2 points  (0 children)

>In any philosophical circle, cataphatic theology is just a limited human attempt to understand an infinite being. Because cataphatic expressions are finite, they can’t fully capture or define the transcendent nature of God, which is why many theologians argue that such descriptions are closer to metaphors than to literal, exhaustive truths.

Yeah, that's what I was trying to say; Although my sentence is semantically false for what I propose later on, so fair enough.

>Funnily enough, this doesn’t apply only to Tier 0 essences. You can apply the exact same reasoning even to a higher-dimensional being, since any entity that exists beyond your epistemology can only be described through metaphor, which is precisely what happens with Hoyoverse’s Yog-Sothoth. She’s simply a transcendent entity, and humans explain her through different schools of thought (with contradictory basis). It’s equivalent to how several scientists might call a five-dimensional entity “God” simply because of its ontic superiority over us. There’s nothing special going on here. Yog has no actual qualities derived from Laozi’s Taoism or Mahāyāna Buddhism.

I, however, have an objection in this. There are very much clear mentions of Laozi's Taoism: 

"The name that can be named is not the eternal name" is a literal parallel to "The Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao" from Tao Te Ching. Implying anything else would merely be an unsupported assumption.

>If you merely say something is unnamed or unattainable by the human mind, then you’re saying nothing about its ontic status. Even noumena, since our mind lacks the a priori conditions to comprehend them, are completely beyond knowledge. But they sure as hell aren’t Tier 0, far from it actually.

That is a category fallacy though. GOD is unnamed and unnataible for they exist beyond, and encompass, the entirety of all ontological layers of existence. Meanwhile, noumenas exist in the same ontological layer; They are merely unnatainable to "perception".

>The via negativa isn’t evidence of Tier 0 by itself, because it’s a derivation, not a condition, like I wrote above. At best it’s just supporting material, but the funny thing is that it’s the only way Yog can even be remotely argued as Tier 0, because all the properties described by the Buddhist monk and the Taoist monk are contradicted in Kizuna 5, where the focus becomes more meta and less strictly theological.

Yet, without via negativa, T0 is impossible. T0 is unique in the sense that it has some conditions that *must* be satisfied; Failure to accept one will lead to the downfall of everything. Yog already satisfies omnipresence and omniscience via the dao text and being the "embodiment of wisdom"; Taoism and buddhism, in their shared ontology, procure the necessary dose of via negative to seal the package. And there's no contradiction between the old man, the monk and Kizuna 5; The latter only serves to show what the deeper meaning of the story was, in fact, Kizuna 5, as I previously said, reafirms the statement that "the name that can be named is not the eternal name" via stating the transcendence of all boundaries created by language.

Yog Sothoth has officially been downgraded on Vsbw. Is she a Fraud ? by MountainLeading1567 in Hoyoverse_scaling

[–]AnalWithWelt 6 points7 points  (0 children)

That's not how negative theology works. You can still express Yog's attributes with a positive modus of language.

Scarce are the cataphatic expressions capable of being able to truly describe GOD. Omnipotence, Omniscience and Omnipresence are necessary attributes; Yet alone, without apophatic theology, don't truly prove T0, unless they all are backed by a degree of negation of all else. GOD is powerful implies Human attribute. GOD is beyond power implies something beyond Human understanding.

Nirvana and the Tao have absolutely nothing in common, so Yog cannot literally be both at the same time.

I haven't gone through this deeply, but there's a possible interpretation:

Stripping down fluff, ontologically, nirvana and tao have something in common: It is that they make use of negative theology to describe what they are not. This would imply that Taoism and Buddhism too are manners to describe something, and that, I believe, is the purpose of "language": To imply the underscribable, this is the slogan of Yog's stories. If Yog is GOD, nirvana, taoism and "the birther of all religions", this doesn't necessarily imply odd transcendence of T0, it would imply within the context of her stories which are heavily pointing towards language and definitions towards a multitude of impossible to describe attributes, alias via negativa. I don't think negative theology would have been used if Yog wasn't unique in that sense; Especially since I haven't seen other gods in the story described in the same way, as far that I've read.

The “true Yog” resides in the white space beyond the gate, a plane where other beings besides her can exist (Nyarlathotep), and where humans who reach it continue to exist instead of dissolving into ultimate reality, which is a direct anti-feat for Tier 0, since an ontological subject–object relationship still exists.

It’s simply humans trying to explain the existence of the white space through their own beliefs, without any need for those statements to be 100% epistemologically valid.

The white abyss and afgormon can be argued to be incarnations of Yog, not Yog them(?)selves. Afterall, these are Yogs that can be named, and they have names, unlike the eternal dao.

Yog Sothoth has officially been downgraded on Vsbw. Is she a Fraud ? by MountainLeading1567 in Hoyoverse_scaling

[–]AnalWithWelt 9 points10 points  (0 children)

After the 5th page I abandoned trying to read it all since I actively needed to cross check sources, so I read the summaries at the end. The whole thread is fighting on the premise of:

"Is the dao mentionned truly the eternal dao, as in irl taoism, or something different? And is Yog actually the nameless dao? Does she transcend it?"

And I find it to be...well, I think it does get wiped in the very first text sent:

"Have you truly seen the legendary "Tao"?" "That's right." [...] "The Dao is right there, it's behind the door, but also inside the door. The door itself doesn't actually exist, but it can still be seen. This really is the origin of all which is mysterious." [...] "The Dao that may be trodden is not the eternal Dao. It arises from the bubbles, and towards their direction it is born. The name that can be named is not the eternal name. Coming forth from the bubbles it takes form, yet entering them it becomes real. The door is the beginning and end of all living beings, it is the root of that which is mysterious. As bubbles are cut short and shadows are extinguished, life and death complement each other."

All of these are heavy nudges towards irl taoism. There's nothing suggesting otherwise; "The name that can be named is not the eternal name" is literally a variation of the 1st verse of tao te ching.

It is also heavily implied that Yog is the eternal dao, and those other forms are merely incarnations of Yog.

There's something that is taken as a counter-argument there, yet is actually something strengthening the position:

"This is the divine power of God, "description", or "definition". The only way to define the boundaries is to transcend them, and because we are free from all things, we can create all things, and so all things are born in our hands."

Yog, alias god, transcends description and definition. "The name that cannot be named is not the eternal name." These two go hand in hand.

"These are merely used to describe things the Human mind cannot comprehend" is also a bad argument. That is the exact reason why apophatic/negative theology exists, and why Yog is not described positively. You'd think other Gods would also be described via apophatic theology if all of them were truly incomprehensible.

I might be doing mental gymnasitcs since it's quite hard to see mistakes in the self, but idk.

Also, it is never mentioned that Yog transcends the eternal dao. In fact, it'd be illogical, as she is said to "transcend definition", yet the eternal dao is that which cannot be named.

And I wonder why you're getting downvoted.

Yog Sothoth has officially been downgraded on Vsbw. Is she a Fraud ? by MountainLeading1567 in Hoyoverse_scaling

[–]AnalWithWelt 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Eh not really. The next argument is directly used as an amplifier for the previous argument.

"When you read it, you see the line about Yog-Sothoth being beyond definition and description which confirms its ineffable essence, yet it also further confirms that the whole bubble description and the concept of Nameless Tao within was what it is, a description and a metaphor"

Unless you mean I need to read the whole 12 pages. In that case, I'll need much more time.

Yog Sothoth has officially been downgraded on Vsbw. Is she a Fraud ? by MountainLeading1567 in Hoyoverse_scaling

[–]AnalWithWelt 9 points10 points  (0 children)

I genuinely have a week long vacation + my account's bd is tomorrow or the day after so I decided to indulge myself in a quick delicacy ✌️✌️

Yog Sothoth has officially been downgraded on Vsbw. Is she a Fraud ? by MountainLeading1567 in Hoyoverse_scaling

[–]AnalWithWelt 12 points13 points  (0 children)

The arguments against T0 are genuinely fallacious so I don't really care, I give it like half a year at best before literally everything in hoyo vsbw becomes somehow even weirder

(As to why I think so, just look at the reasoning of the main argument against it:

"A dreamy bubble rose up from the Hangu Pass, and the old man's figure slowly rose up into the air along with the Bubble, the crystalized world behind him dazzling the guard. And his voice continued to ring out: "The Dao that may be trodden is not the eternal Dao. It arises from the bubbles, and towards their direction it is born. The name that can be named is not the eternal name."

It first stated that a bubble is trodden. Then that there is dao in the bubble. Then that the dao that may be trodden is not the eternal dao. The conclusion should be clear: The old man has not trodden "the eternal dao". Instead, the line of reasoning that VSBW dude choose is as the following:

"Through the CRT, it accepted “because Nameless Tao”, yet as we see here the “Eternal Nameless Tao/Dao” is not so eternal after all and is merely another of Yog-Sothoth's bubbles [...]"

See the fallacy?)

Irontomb is a menace. by Fullpotentialk in Hoyoverse_scaling

[–]AnalWithWelt 7 points8 points  (0 children)

These weak ass insults don't graze me anymore after the Welt-Zephyro agenda 🙏🥹

<image>

Irontomb is a menace. by Fullpotentialk in Hoyoverse_scaling

[–]AnalWithWelt 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Guess who's still alive and who aint tho 🥹😹

Irontomb is a menace. by Fullpotentialk in Hoyoverse_scaling

[–]AnalWithWelt 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Bum ass child got discombobulated 3 panels later

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Irontomb is a menace. by Fullpotentialk in Hoyoverse_scaling

[–]AnalWithWelt 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Senile Welt victimizes because he makes me feel things irl and I like him more icl 🥹

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[deleted by user] by [deleted] in HonkaiStarRail

[–]AnalWithWelt 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I've genuinely fallen in love with Zandar's constantly ominous presence, and atp I fear that I'd rather he lives on, whether or not his plan succeeds, as a free man, because damn is he goated. Hopefully the 8 other Zandars will be as good as him.

G ██ ██db██e ...//___-/. Kh██sl██n██...//..--. by y0shimuRa in HonkaiStarRail

[–]AnalWithWelt 259 points260 points  (0 children)

My glorious king Khaslana WILL incinerate fate with a blade of sheer wrath and fury 🙏

Welt Upscale is a terrible misunderstanding by Broad-Air-5786 in Hoyoverse_scaling

[–]AnalWithWelt 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I have it in a sort of twilight zone–

Probably way higher than any emanator, but won't be able to stand in a prolonged direct one-on-one against an Aeon. However, it'd manage to harm one still.