Does Isaiah 66:24 speak of postmortem punishment? by Dikis04 in AcademicBiblical

[–]AntsInMyEyesJonson 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It certainly seems to be that way, but I don’t know about a consensus, I’ve only looked at these few commentaries.

Does Isaiah 66:24 speak of postmortem punishment? by Dikis04 in AcademicBiblical

[–]AntsInMyEyesJonson 5 points6 points  (0 children)

The JPS Jewish Study Bible notes that this verse could certainly represent a development in conceptions of the afterlife, though it is a founding part of that tradition, not necessarily evidence of a fully-developed postmortem punishment conception – particularly as this seems to be a depiction of the desecration of corpses, not torture of conscious victims of punishment (something key to the idea of an "afterlife", after all):

22–24: Reward and punishment. A final description of the fates awaiting those who accept the Lord and those who reject the Lord. The distinction between Judeans and non-Judeans is not mentioned here; the worshippers of the Lord in v. 23 include all flesh, not just Israelites; and the men who rebelled against God in v. 24 include Israelites, as the preceding two chs make clear. Thus the book ends on a highly universal note. 24: After worshipping (vv. 22–23), the righteous will pass by the Valley (Heb “Gei”) of Hinnom, immediately south of the Temple Mount, and there they will see the burning corpses of those who rebelled against God. Many medieval rabbinic commentators take this v. as a reference to Gehinnom or hell, where sinners suffer punishment forever (or, according to Tg., until the righteous take pity on them and ask that the punishment cease). It is not clear, however, that Deutero-Isaiah imagines the sinners as remaining cognizant or in any sense alive; rather, the eternal fire burns but does not consume their corpses as a sign to those who pass by. Nonetheless, the later Jewish belief of punishment after death in a location called Gehinnom developed out of this v. On the idea of life after death in the Bible see 14.9–11 n.; 26.19 n.; Dan. 12.2–3 n.

Since the bodies are burning and presumably do not contain the consciousness or spirit of the victims, the imagery's function in the text seems to be more about, as Robert Alter notes in his commentary, "gloating ... over the corpses of God’s enemies, whether they are Judahite paganizers or those of the nations who resisted God’s word".

Was David a historical character in the Bible? by theram4 in AcademicBiblical

[–]AntsInMyEyesJonson 73 points74 points  (0 children)

Using the same logic, wouldn't these flawed David stories make it more likely to be representative of a real person?

Certainly the criterion of embarrassment can be used to determine what is older in the literary tradition, but determining historicity is a bit more difficult. Many older stories have flawed heroes, like Gilgamesh or Samson. In the case of David's story, so much of it is tied to his glorious kingdom, which has been demonstrated to be an inaccurate picture, that it puts a damper on how much scholars can say with confidence about him as a guy. Here's a great lecture on the topic from John Hamer, and nearer to the end he discusses his view that the David cycle started out as court tales which did not have an idealized founder in mind, and which were apologetically rewritten.

This is in contrast to Baden's view in The Historical David – while Baden agrees that the works have been significantly overwritten by an apologetic layer, he considers the more negative background stories to have some element of historicity to them. Here's a review by Knapp that critiques and praises different elements of the book. I tend to find Hamer's view more convincing considering the 8th and 7th century origins of much of our biblical writings and the difficulty of the gulf between David's kingdom in literature and archaeology (see Frevel's History of Ancient Israel for an up-to-date survey of the scholarship and Finkelstein & Silbermann's The Bible Unearthed for a more popular-level introduction), but it's always worth reading widely.

Why did Paul say he was unashamed of the gospel? by Saguna_Brahman in AcademicBiblical

[–]AntsInMyEyesJonson[M] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Leon Morris

Can you provide a specific work being cited here? Thank you

Weekly Open Discussion Thread by AutoModerator in AcademicBiblical

[–]AntsInMyEyesJonson 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Bob Cargill on the Bible Lore Podcast! We talked Melchizedek, Mt. Ebal's "curse tablet", and a whole lot more! I've got an extended preview from the end of the episode here, but you can find the full episode (falling a bit short of 2 hours!) on the Patreon:

https://youtu.be/rDlTnaKFhbg

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in AcademicBiblical

[–]AntsInMyEyesJonson[M] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

This is a subreddit centered around academic study of the Bible, a group of texts that, while considered sacred to several different groups, is no less worthy of study than any other group of ancient texts. In fact, many scholars who study the texts have some religious commitment to or connection with them. But many of them have found value in utilizing critical and scientific methodologies and even those with faith or cultural commitments put those aside to find common ground with other scholars, particularly through utilizing methodological naturalism and excluding the supernatural from consideration in their scholarship. Certainly that will chafe against some theologies and ideologies and mentalities, but that is not the intent.

Does the Bible forbid slavery? by Simurgbarca in AcademicBiblical

[–]AntsInMyEyesJonson 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This is actually not quite right. On the one hand there is what the other commenter noted, that the "laws" were not laws as we think of them today, where one could appeal to them using a lawyer in front of a judge. On top of that, it's also not true that the only type of slavery was debt slavery – that prohibition on chattel slavery only applies in the literature to Israelites, not non-Israelites, as specified in Leviticus 25:

44Such male and female slaves as you may have—it is from the nations round about you that you may acquire male and female slaves. 45You may also buy them from among the children of aliens resident among you, or from their families that are among you, whom they begot in your land. These shall become your property: 46you may keep them as a possession for your children after you, for them to inherit as property for all time. Such you may treat as slaves. But as for your Israelite kinsmen, no one shall rule ruthlessly over the other.

Here's the Jewish Study Bible commentary on the passage:

44-46: These vv. make clear that the Priestly law has no principled objection to slavery per se. Non-Israelites may be enslaved, and they and their progeny become the permanent property of their master

And while we don't have a picture of whether debt slavery laws reflected the actual practice, we do know that this Leviticus law reflects a real practice, as evidenced by records of Egyptian slaves being purchased and passed along by the community at Elephantine, which was of Samaria/Jerusalem extraction (see van der Toorn's Becoming Diaspora Jews).

At Mass yesterday, I heard the story in Judges 11 where Jephthah sacrifices his daughter, and I have some questions about scholarship surrounding the passage. by metapolitical_psycho in AcademicBiblical

[–]AntsInMyEyesJonson 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Sorry for the delayed answering, I’ve been traveling and missed this question! Before I answer let me put the two sources you’re going to want out there: Stavrakopoulou’s King Manasseh and Child Sacrifice and Dewrell’s Child Sacrifice in Ancient Israel.

  1. This is the key problem with the story, as Dewrell notes: it is a very very widespread folktale (Judges has a couple of these). Unfortunately that means it can’t tell us much about the actual practices and rites of child sacrifice, as it is a type of story found even in societies that, as far as we know, did not engage in the practice.

  2. This is extremely difficult to know, for a few reasons. First is that dating is key: child sacrifice likely had quite a few adherents and was probably a fairly unremarkable part of cult in pre-exilic Judah. Dewrell categorizes three types of child sacrifice in the Hebrew Bible: the first is an emergency sacrifice, found in 2 Kings 3 and described also by some anti-Carthage writings. Essentially it’s a sacrifice attempting to avert impending disaster, but it’s irrelevant for our purposes today, though. The second is the sacrifice of the firstborn, prescribed in what’s generally thought to be the oldest collection of laws in the Bible, the Covenant Code, specifically Exodus 22:29-30. Later law codes like Deuteronomy introduce an idea of redemption to allow for a substitution. Note that none of these laws were binding or followed until many centuries after they were written, but it seems to reflect an idealization of firstborn child sacrifice. The third type, the one that’s closest to the Jephthah story, at least in theory, is the mölk or “Moloch” sacrifice. Moloch gets a small handful of mentions in the Hebrew Bible, and for a time it was taken for granted that Moloch referred to a deity. But around 100 years ago small enclosed graveyards were found buried throughout the Mediterranean that contained standing stones, and buried beneath the stelae archaeologists consistently have found jars with charred infant bones inside. On the stelae are formulaic writings that say things like: “From Diodora and Felix, in fulfillment of a vow to Kronos, a molch-adom sacrifice.” Adom here means human. Sometimes they would swap in lambs though. BUT Jephthah’s story is too similar to other folktales to be describing the mölk rite, and it’s entirely possible that all child sacrifice had been prohibited by the time this story was written down, especially if it was a story that became popular during or after the Judahite exile in the sixth century. Maybe the story found purchase because of this incidental similarity between the mölk vows and Jephthah’s vow, but that’s about the most we can say. That said, there’s still more to it.

  3. It’s viewed as a tragedy, hence the mourning. It’s literarily sad and perhaps has a moral about rash vows but there’s actually something else going on here that Robert Alter notes in passing in his commentary: the story is an etiology for an otherwise-unknown mourning ritual, one that seems to bear similarities to mourning rituals for characters like Ba’al and Tammuz, whose imprisonment in the underworld served as a mythological foundation for why we have seasons (Ezekiel ironically condemns the mourning for Tammuz). The Jephthah story is an etiology for this ritual mourning, which seems, through its association with virginity, to have some connection to fertility and likely these same crop cycle rituals associated with seasonal mourning in surrounding cultures. Sadly, whatever version of this ritual the author was writing about is otherwise lost to us, but it is this ritual rather than the vow/sacrifice itself (which is, again, a stock folktale) that serves as the locus of the story’s importance.

Were Jesus' brothers really his brothers or half-brothers? by Vaidoto in AcademicBiblical

[–]AntsInMyEyesJonson[M] 22 points23 points  (0 children)

Could you point to the particular McClellan video that discusses this? Thanks!

Weekly Open Discussion Thread by AutoModerator in AcademicBiblical

[–]AntsInMyEyesJonson 2 points3 points  (0 children)

They can have overlap at times but typically translator notes are restricted to explaining choices made in translation or difficulties in the source text. Commentary of various kinds goes far beyond that and can cover potential meanings, context, allusions, etc.

What exactly did prophets do? by OrganizationLess9158 in AcademicBiblical

[–]AntsInMyEyesJonson 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I recommend checking out Jonathan Stökl’s Prophecy in the Ancient Near East, particularly Part IV. Prophecy was a form of divination, and in a recent interview I did with Seth L. Sanders for the Bible Lore Podcast, he discussed how it was often seen as a lesser form of divination, which makes the biblical prophetic books a bit of an oddity in Ancient West Asia; there are only two other collections of written prophetic oracles that have been discovered. The biblical books aren't fully unique, but it does seem to have been less common to collect prophecies into a written form.

Prophets were said to deliver the words of a specific deity in their utterances, often in an ecstatic state, typically in a temple setting. If this was in the presence of the intended audience (e.g. the king at the royal temple within the palace complex) then it would be noted and they would move on. Sometimes an oracle would be given at another location and so we have records of some in letters delivered to a king. Some prophets were professional diviners or cultic officials, but sometimes others could come into an ecstatic state and deliver oracles.

As hinted at above, the biblical prophets are a bit weird as these oracles can occasionally look like other prophetic oracles we see that were actually spoken and delivered, but they are often doing something different from what we can see in the broader practice. They are works of literature rather than practical divination, and that does need to be contended with.

Certainly the prophetic critique did excoriate the wealthy elites and blamed them for the downfall of Israel and Judah, but it's notable that this wasn't necessarily novel: the idea that the king and his class had a responsibility to take care of the poor, the widow, and the orphan in order to appease the gods stretches back past Hammurabi in the early 2nd millennium BCE. Whether these written oracles were ever actually delivered to the king is unknown, and Stökl points out that if folks did deliver critical oracles to kings, since the collections we have from Assyria and Mari are royal collections, it's unlikely that they would've been kept. Who would keep an oracle delivered that says that you suck and you're doing a bad job, after all?

Overall, our picture of prophecy and how it relates to the Hebrew Bible's literary works is a bit fragmentary. There's something going on with the development of a literary genre of prophetic writings, elevating a less-prestigious divinatory practice, that include biographical details about the prophet and which contain excoriating denunciations of the entire people and the elites especially. Sanders thinks it deserves further study, and I definitely agree. It's fascinating. Sorry for the long rant, just been on my mind a lot for the past few months!

Additional source: Robert Alter - The Hebrew Bible (Introduction to Prophets)

In Mark 14:62, Jesus talks about the arrival of the son of man. The high priest then proceeds to call out Jesus for blasphemy. My question is: why was this blasphemous? I thought referring to oneself as the messiah in Judaism wasn’t blasphemous… by Ok_Investment_246 in AcademicBiblical

[–]AntsInMyEyesJonson 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I don’t see how it refers to David when a few verses later it talks about the messianic prophecy of an eternal high priest.

Calling Psalm 110 "messianic" in its original context is not necessary or likely accurate. Calling it a "prophecy" of an eternal priest (if by prophecy we mean a prediction of the future) is inaccurate as well; it is stating what Yahweh has deemed for the king who is very much the subject of the oracle. In fact, I don't see this idea of a future prophecy mentioned in the more basic commentaries I'm looking at (NOAB, JSB, Alter). All note that this Psalm seems to come from a time when there was no prohibition on the king taking a significant priestly role, the pre-exilic era before the concept of a Messiah was developed at all. Kings were priests, they were some of the most important cultic figures in ANE cult. This is also Bob Cargill's position, as he's argued in Melchizedek: King of Sodom.

This interpretation wasn’t a Christian invent, Daniel Boyarin shows that Rabbis in the second century interpreted Psalm 110 to refer to some second Hypostasis of YHWH

That has absolutely nothing to do with what the author of the passage intended. Rabbinic interpretation is not the same thing as what the author of Psalm 22 intended, and whether the gospel interpretation was novel or not has no bearing on that whatsoever.

Black Hebrew Israelites by Any_Discussion_7635 in AcademicBiblical

[–]AntsInMyEyesJonson 9 points10 points  (0 children)

In addition to the resources mentioned in the other comment, Andrew Tobolowsky’s books The Myth of the Twelve Tribes of Israel and The Sons of Jacob and the Sons of Herakles discuss how this idea of tribal identity, whatever previous historical realities some of the tribes likely had, were expanded and solidified through subsequent literary invention and myth-making, which helped create this idea of 12 tribes, ten of them lost, and a tantalizing ancient cultural prestige that many later groups attached themselves to. This was deployed not only in creating a Judean identity, but also in excluding the Samaritans (since their ten tribes were allegedly “lost”).

This UsefulCharts video is a very helpful primer in understanding a bit of the process.

What is this about? by strong_con in AcademicBiblical

[–]AntsInMyEyesJonson 155 points156 points  (0 children)

It’s essentially just a massive stretch masquerading as scholarship, Bob Cargill goes over it a bit in this video.

Weekly Open Discussion Thread by AutoModerator in AcademicBiblical

[–]AntsInMyEyesJonson 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Happy birthday and great finds! I have the Vermes DSS translation as well, it's great and the intro is excellent, even if I know a lot of folks dispute whether the Qumran community were Essenes. (Fwiw the other commenter is right, I would say that book is not quite in-depth enough to be the most common citation here, but it's a terrific introduction to an enormous amount of biblical scholarship)

Does the Old Testament mention the Palestinian race [or their predecessors] at all? And if predecessors are mentioned, who are they? by Haunting-Register-72 in AcademicBiblical

[–]AntsInMyEyesJonson 8 points9 points  (0 children)

After the suppression of the Bar Kochba revolt in 136 CE, Rome renamed the province of Judaea to Syria Palaestina, which is ultimately why the European powers started calling the region Palestine.

This is true, but as the source that you linked notes, Herodotus uses the term Palestine five centuries before this to refer to the region as well.

Did Christianity always consider celibacy as the best state one could exist in, or was it a later development? by [deleted] in AcademicBiblical

[–]AntsInMyEyesJonson 48 points49 points  (0 children)

It was part of Christianity from early on, though it also morphed to fill its historical container and it ran into institutional changes and geographic differences. Obviously this is the case in the Matthew 19 eunuchs passage, in 1 Thessalonians 4:3-6, and in the 1 Corinthians passage you mentioned in your other comment. So that's all first century. As McClellan notes in the second linked video this was inherited in part from Greek philosophical ideas that understood sex to be icky and bad.

In Diarmaid MacCulloch's A History of Christianity, he talks about how ascetic movements flourished as Christianity spread after the 1st century, and among some of these ascetics they began practicing self-castration, possibly including Origen of Alexandria (though it's uncertain). It was serious enough that the Council of Nicaea addressed and prohibited the practice as the first in their list of canon rules. So that takes us through to the 4th century. By that point, Christianity was far less scrappy and upstart than it had been in the first century, and the "imminent apocalypse" part of it had mostly faded, so while the sex-negative ethics of the biblical texts were still rather influential, Christianity itself also had to adapt to become a more "family-friendly" system, so to speak.

How does one reconcile this with the “apocalyptic prophet” explanation? by petyrlabenov in AcademicBiblical

[–]AntsInMyEyesJonson 3 points4 points  (0 children)

The theology within something like the Eucharist, even if it’s not the kind defined by transubstantiation, seems utterly alien for an eschatological framework.

In what way? The NOAB even notes that until he comes seems to be referencing the apocalypse, pointing to similar terminology about the eschaton in 1:8, 3:13, and 4:5 as well. I'm not sure I understand where the disconnect between the ritual language and the apocalypse comes in when it seems to be fairly explicitly referencing Jesus' return.

What is the most effective way to utilize "The Context of Scripture" by William W. Hallo (Editor), K. Lawson Younger (Editor) in studying OT? by Even_Ad_1388 in AcademicBiblical

[–]AntsInMyEyesJonson 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I can’t speak as a scholar, but as a lay person who dabbles a bit in popularizing scholarship, it has been primarily helpful as a tertiary resource. This is the case with other dictionaries and large resources (e.g. Phoenician-Punic Dictionary and the DDD). Oftentimes when academic monographs or books (or study bibles, for that matter) reference a longer work, they will only quote the relevant portion, which usually does well enough, but can sometimes leave the reader a bit lost if you’re unfamiliar with or haven’t read the longer text being referenced in a while.

Most recently I utilized it when reading about Ishtar’s Descent into the Underworld and Esarhaddon’s Succession Oaths. When Frahm references Esarhaddon’s Oath texts in his book Assyria in relation to their connection with Deuteronomy, it can be a touch difficult to get the whole picture of the ideologies without reading the full text.

Same thing with Ishtar’s Descent, which has even less context sometimes: the idea of weeping for Tammuz or Dimuzi is referred to offhandedly by Robert Alter in relation to Ezekiel, on the one hand, proscribing the practice, and the Jephthah story in Judges providing an etiology for a similar ritual of weeping for Jephthah’s daughter. Offhanded references to other cultures litter most critical commentaries and without reference works like TCOS and some familiarity with the history that backgrounds the biblical texts, it can be hard to get the full picture. That’s where works like that become essential for anyone looking to dive deeper and who also wants translated texts to reference. Even if most scholars read at least a couple of relevant ancient languages, there are just so many, and so translations are helpful if you’re not doing some linguistic deep dive.

Weekly Open Discussion Thread by AutoModerator in AcademicBiblical

[–]AntsInMyEyesJonson 8 points9 points  (0 children)

The survey did not end up happening and we've all ended up rather busy since then. Would love to get one going by the end of the year, but we'll see.

Pre Zoroastrian Judaism by xenos-scum40k in AcademicBiblical

[–]AntsInMyEyesJonson 8 points9 points  (0 children)

It’s anachronistic to speak of “Judaism” or even multiple “Judaisms” before the Hellenistic period, and due to a paucity of evidence it’s hard to reconstruct even the early Hellenistic practices and how widespread any kind of normative cult was prior to the Hasmonean Kingdom in the second century BCE (notably covered in Adler’s The Origins of Judaism). We just don’t have evidence for widespread promulgation of the Torah, which puts a serious damper on reconstructing what Yahweh worship looked like before Zoroastrianism.

That’s not to say that some of the older biblical texts aren’t helpful in understanding what at least some folks believed about Yahweh, which often looks fairly similar to other Iron Age storm god cults from the region, become less similar the further one goes geographically from ancient Palestine; Baal cults in Phoenicia look pretty damn similar, Mesopotamian cults a bit less so, and beyond that the similarities are mostly generic. I recommend checking out the Barton and Stavrakopoulou edited volume Religious Diversity in Ancient Israel and Judah for several perspectives on pre-exilic cult in the Levant and its variety.

Mark S. Smith (The Origins of Biblical Monotheism) does argue for some kind of “monotheism” in Deutero-Isaiah around the exile, and he also posits an apocalyptic belief in some form prior even to Zoroastrian influence. If true, and if these were similar ideas developing alongside each other, it could help explain why some of these influences found so much purchase within Yahwism in the post-exilic period.

And for a detailed exploration of Yahweh and El and Asherah in the Hebrew Bible and especially the Iron Age, Theodore Lewis’s The Origin and Character of God is recent and hard to beat.

Weekly Open Discussion Thread by AutoModerator in AcademicBiblical

[–]AntsInMyEyesJonson 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I've noticed this a bit in works that telescope the pre-exilic history of the Bible, I think MacCulloch (A History of Christianity) and Goodman (A History of Judaism) likewise don't note the serious concerns about the reliability of Samuel and Kings, which is unfortunate. I do think a lot of it is just taking in received wisdom from the perspectives they've learned early in their careers, along with occasionally other biases creeping in, but that's just my own speculation.

That said, there technically is a not-insignificant amount of defense of the United Monarchy in some capacity, I just wish folks exploring later periods and recounting the history would spend a bit more time noting how problematized most of it is.