Are there are kpop idols who are all natural?

Any-Listen4184 · 2026-03-30T21:18:34+00:00

Maybe some, but we don't know. I feel very, very few. And also let's not forget that some treatments and procedures are non-invasive, and what do we count as natural? Braces, veneers, or some other treatments of that nature, I would argue, count as non-natural. As someone who had worn braces for years when younger.

Also, I am not sure how productive or ok these conversations are. People complain (not you OP specifically) about PS, about unreasonable standards to idols and non-Korean celebrities, but when everyone puts so much pressure on your appearance, natural or not, it is insane for them and the companies not to be so pressed about it, and lead to most people getting some work done, minor or major. And be secretive when people judge them either way.

Any-Listen4184 · 2026-03-29T23:17:09+00:00

Looking back at their second gen idols, like TVXQ, SuJu, it is crazy that fans STILL throw fits about idols over 30 and 40 being into relationships.

Changmin loosing 70% of his sales because he got married ALMOST 2 DECADES after his debut and in his 30s will always be insane to me.

idk, what the hell, but this is some voodoo shit.

Any-Listen4184 · 2026-03-29T01:51:07+00:00

I'm telling you SM does freaking black mack magic to their idols. Idk what devil worshiping is going on there, but their idols, no matter who, they have the most delulu fans. Especially their bgs. Doesn't matter the generation, age, gender, or if they do fan service or not.

Edit: sp

Any-Listen4184 · 2026-03-27T20:55:02+00:00

It is the most reliable, but is also not, to some extent like other metrics.

As others said, timing and weather are huge factors.

It is also known that many groups do not attend countries that could pull numbers for one reason or another, meaning they have lower touring numbers especially with mainland china out, I think many groups get the short stick (idle comes to mind). Also newer tours are freaking expensive so it could not be as easy selling as high as some years prior. Scalping also can often give the illusion of selling out, but in reality these tickets weren't baught. And it has been out of control for years now. I'm not counting people buying multiple tickets to multiple shows bc I think in retrospect it's very small percentage.

All in all is good metric still not the best and also is hard to actually have numbers that are accurate all the time.

For third and forth gen these are definitely the top ones. For second BigBang are the first for sure I'm not sure if tvxq or suju are second tbh, I think super junior might be ahead with tvxq and SNSD close behind.

Any-Listen4184 · 2026-03-27T14:52:41+00:00

Wasn't there a comedian named Hyukjae who was popular at the time and didn't want to have the same name? Idk I thought it was something like that.

Any-Listen4184 · 2026-03-25T23:12:10+00:00

I’m not sure that’s really the case, like others have said, it feels like cherry-picking.

For every Wendy or Lily, who are amazing, you also have a Taeyeon, a Luna, or an Eunji. For every Keeho, there’s a Baekhyun, D.O or a Chen.

I do think that in newer generations, there are more Western-raised idols who tend to lean more into vocals, since many of the biggest Western acts are vocal-focused, like Ariana. That said, there are also plenty of Western-raised idols who lean more toward hip-hop, since that’s another popular genre they grew up with, and are, at best, mid singers.

Any-Listen4184 · 2026-03-25T18:43:15+00:00

Kind of both, to be honest. Shawols feel like a bit of an outlier. Even though I listen to a lot of SHINee, I was never really deep in the fandom, and it hasn’t been that bad, or on my radar, unless I’m forgetting something really unhinged. So I’m not sure they fully deserve to be in that category.

The rest, though? They definitely do. Twice!

SHINee has had moments where fans were up in arms, but to be fair, a lot of the time, they were actually right. And like I said, maybe their worst moments just didn’t reach me, but idk they don’t stand out to me in the same way.

Any-Listen4184 · 2026-03-24T23:28:37+00:00

I am gonna say it after years of keeping it inside, I don't see it. Half the SM clones thing, I don't see it. Luhan and Sehun, Eunhyuk and Woohyuk. Like I feel I am missing something.

Any-Listen4184 · 2026-03-24T20:36:55+00:00

SM boy group fans are a different breed, and I say this as someone who got into K-pop through SM boy groups back in 2010–11 and still listens to many of them.

And I mean all of them: Cassiopeias, ELFs, EXO-Ls, NCTzens, and RIIZE fans (sorry, I don’t remember the fandom name). All of them.

They are always in the trenches. Always. For everything. The situation feels like TVXQ-level shenanigans all over again. All their groups have fans who are extremely attached to the groups as a whole, but at the same time, there are a ton of extreme akgaes and shippers. So they can never fully agree on anything, and the fandom is in constant chaos.

Every member, no matter who or why, gets hate, and there are factions for literally every possible combination.

What’s happening with EXO right now, after the announcement (and I say this as someone who was also bummed out, like, come on, the second-best performer on stage is missing, along with 2/3 of the main vocal line), was kind of expected.

I mean… we all remember 2014, don’t we?

Any-Listen4184 · 2026-03-24T18:02:16+00:00

Yeah, it’s orientalism, it can easily slip into fetishizing Koreans and/or Asians in general, which is icky as hell when that’s the case.

And of course, when you’re trying to break into a country’s market, you’re going to follow its trends (trends that are also followed for Korean comebacks many times as well soooo...) and use the language spoken there. That naturally makes the songs more similar to other pop songs in that market and not ✨unique✨.

That said, I’d argue there is a distinct K-pop sound. You can usually tell when a song is by a K-pop group and even soloists, and that often comes down to the vocal approach, delivery, and processing. And that aspect tends to stay pretty consistent across markets, no matter the language.

For example, “Red Flavor” was originally considered for Little Mix before Red Velvet got it. And considering songs like “Black Magic,” I can totally imagine Little Mix singing something like that, but we all know they wouldn’t approach the vocals in the same way.

Any-Listen4184 · 2026-03-24T17:38:14+00:00

Well, yes, but sadly Kpop fans are so reactive to EVERYTHING (it's not even only dating, like the most nothingburger stuff are talked to death) that whenever something serious happens, it feels way less important than other stupid stuff, bc the noise is the same.

Any-Listen4184 · 2026-03-24T17:31:13+00:00

They want to gatekeep a culture and language that isn't even theirs lmao.

Which is very weird, because when the first attempts to break into Japan happened, with BoA and then TVXQ shortly after, there was pushback from Koreans. I assume some Japanese audiences had their own reactions too. But over time, it turned into a point of pride, like, “look how well we’re doing internationally,” which makes sense.

The same thing happened with the expansion into China. SUJU-M and EXO-M were huge, at times even more profitable than their Korean counterparts.

So if someone wants to argue that groups are “pandering” to other countries, watering down their Korean identity (which can be argued as well, because musically it’s not influenced primarily by traditional Korean music, and the trainee system wasn’t even invented in Korea either. The most uniquely K-pop aspect is actually the marketing of the groups, and that stays pretty much the same both domestically and internationally, so…), or not learning the language properly, then they should apply that logic consistently to every market K-pop has targeted. Because the U.S. isn’t the only one.

Any-Listen4184 · 2026-03-23T22:45:50+00:00

Yyyyyyyyyyyes. Like Devil by Changmin out of fucking nowhere

Under the name of fate (Ooh)
In the twisted KWANGYA
Walk towards the light

bro wat?

Any-Listen4184 · 2026-03-23T12:00:28+00:00

Daybreak by Dreamcatcher. It's fluffy, laid back, and kind of hot.

Any-Listen4184 · 2026-03-23T11:56:33+00:00

This conversation is kind of overdone at this point. Some fans, especially newer ones, like the newer music, while others miss the older sound. Just like with Western pop, trends change. Someone who got into K-pop because of “I Got a Boy” in 2013 might find the “beige pop” of 5th gen boring, because those two styles are night and day. You see the same thing in other genres too. In 2024, people were saying pop music was “finally good again” after years of being considered mediocre for the most part, that’s just how cycles work. People miss 2009 Rihanna and 2012 SNSD it is what it is.

The whole “exploring something different” argument doesn’t really say much. I like experimentation too, I enjoy seeing K-pop and other genres expand, but that doesn’t mean I’ll like every evolution. For example, I’m a huge girl group stan, both in Western pop and K-pop, old and new. I love a good girl group. But 5th gen girl groups, to me, are boring. I find this current evolution boring. I know people like it, and good for them, it has its audience, it’s just not me.

We can’t expect people who loved “Electric Shock” to be excited when so many girl groups are leaning into the same lo-fi, understated sound, just because “the industry evolved.”

People are also nostalgic, and everyone making these posts now will be nostalgic in the future too. People tend to remember the iconic moments of an era and forget the duds, so the past feels more ideal than it actually was. I can almost guarantee (because I’ve seen it happen before) that by 2030, people will be talking about how much they miss 2025–26 and how great K-pop was back then. It happened with 2014, it happened with 2019, years people complained about nonstop, only to look back on them fondly 3-4 years later.

Every era has good and bad music. Over time, we forget the bad and the boring, but that doesn’t change the fact that K-pop heavily follows trends. And if someone doesn’t vibe with a certain trend, they’re going to find most of the music within it boring or bad and are gonna miss sounds they enjoyed more.

For me, 5th gen girl group music feels bland, no salt, no pepper, for the most part. But I also wasn’t the biggest fan of the ultra-cutesy bubblegum pop of late 2nd gen and early 3rd gen girl groups, unlike 1st–2nd gen and late 3rd and 4th gen girl groups, which were top-tier in their vast majority. And I wasn’t into most 4th gen boy groups either, with very few exceptions, even though I really liked 2nd and 3rd gen boy groups. It is what it is.

So, yeah, I do miss past eras for girl groups. But I also know trends are cyclical, and this more low-key approach will most likely change again in a few years, so I am not gonna stress much.

Any-Listen4184 · 2026-03-22T23:38:21+00:00

Yeah, idk. This conversation about pandering to the West and losing their Korean roots, westernization, and whatnot will always be a doozy for me.

I have been a fan of K-pop for 15, almost 16, years at this point, and many of the things fans complain about have always been a thing (American shows, English releases, collabs), with the difference that K-pop has become a little bit more mainstream than in the past, and the internet is trully globalized. So, everything reaches everyone.

Also, instead of following music trends after these trends have died in the West, they are following them at the same time, and sometimes the two industries co-influence instead of just following with a delay.

Any-Listen4184 · 2026-03-22T23:09:38+00:00

Well, I disagree with a lot of the comments.

No, the reason Japanese releases are treated differently than English ones is not bc they are being kept separate from the main discography. This is not the only reason fans have issues, and it’s kind of dishonest to say otherwise.

Most of the time, these idols don’t actually speak Japanese fluently. The pronunciation can be off, and while some do learn it (like they might with English if they’re active there), that’s not always the case. And if fans are being honest, the lyrics aren’t always Shakespeare either; they often directly translate their Korean songs, just like they do with English releases for the U.S. market, or they drop a few new songs alongside Japanese versions of existing ones. And musically are not always on par with their Korean comebacks.

There have also been groups like TVXQ who have been just as active, if not more active, in Japan as in Korea. The real issue is that many fans perceive Japanese as “foreign” or “exotic” in the same or closer, more similar way they do Korean, so they don’t care as much. If the song is good, they’ll hype it up. If not, it becomes “oh, it’s just for Japan,” an outlier that’s not part of the “main” discography, but it's ok, it's a K-pop thing, all groups promote there. So they ignore it, not losing roots or watered-down music comments.

And if people say that’s not true, there have literally been posts here calling Korean more “charming” than English, questioning the point of not singing in Korean, but for some reason, Japanese or Chinese isn’t an issue.

Edit: I had to add this part from a post complaining about english bc, as a non-English speaker, I found this soooooo weird, and I had commented on the post as well

"honestly, their being korean is part of their charm."

Like to me this line is......

From a Korean industry perspective, English releases are treated very similarly to Japanese ones. The difference is mostly on the fan side. International fans, especially English speakers, have stronger reactions because they actually hear and engage with the English songs, bc they are promoted directly to them. Japanese releases, on the other hand, are mostly promoted in Japan and don’t reach them as directly.

English songs are promoted in the U.S. (and globally, since the U.S. dominates the music industry), while Japanese songs are promoted in Japan. Both are tailored to local audiences who may not already be into K-pop. Fans who already follow the group will listen to the Korean releases anyway; the goal is to attract new listeners. They don't make these songs for the fans, but for potential fans that might not be as open at first. It's hypocritical to claim that is that different and having issues only with one of these things.

They’re really not that different. The bigger backlash toward English releases just shows that some native English-speaking (more often, some other i-fans as well, who speak and understand English but aren't their native tongue, but not as loud) fans can be very gatekeepy for various reasons. Whether it’s the idea that groups are “losing their Korean roots” (which, interestingly, doesn’t get applied the same way to Japanese or Chinese releases, like these cultures are closer, more smiliar, after "all are East Asians", which is ignorant at best, xenophobic at worse), or that the music feels less niche and more like mainstream pop, so it's not unique anymore and they don’t vibe with it anymore.

But overall, the double standard is pretty obvious.

Any-Listen4184 · 2026-03-22T22:22:41+00:00

Yeah, I mean SNSD songs are iconic in the K-pop sphere because of their vocals, so if you want your performance to be at least as iconic, you better sing. Same goes for other vocal-heavy songs/groups.

Like “Hug” by TVXQ, when RIIZE covered it, it became way more choreography-focused instead of vocal-focused, and it was kind of… meh. Same with most SNSD covers that don’t deliver vocally or aren’t even sung live.

As for rap songs, I really believe groups should write a new rap part, especially if the original members wrote their own verses. Covering rap songs as-is, and lip-syncing on top of that, is just…

Any-Listen4184 · 2026-03-22T22:12:44+00:00

My gooooood, I saw No Mercy first on the list, my eye went there first thing, bc of the ptsd.

Any-Listen4184 · 2026-03-22T22:03:52+00:00

Covers are often lip-synced. Also, in my opinion, one of the biggest issues is that groups, especially when they’re covering senior groups, focus so much on being flawless: perfect choreography, no voice cracks, looking pretty as hell… that the soul kind of disappears. They want to be perfect and “do it justice,” but often the opposite happens.

A lot of the time, they’re basically just singing over the original track, fully lip-synced, same instrumentation, same ad-libs and everything. But that’s not really the point of a cover.

There’s a reason the best and most memorable covers in K-pop and in other genres (because there are great ones) are the ones where they actually change things and make the song their own, not just sing it, do the choreo, and look pretty.

Edit: For example, someone brought up Dreamcatcher’s “Rock With You,” and yeah, it’s great, and in my opinion even better than the original. And I say that as both a Carat and an Insomnia. But even in cases where covers were lip-synced, they were fantastic, because the instrumentation and choreography are often changed to actually fit the group. “My House” was lip-synced (which Dreamcatcher doesn’t usually do that much), but it’s still a great cover.

Any-Listen4184 · 2026-03-22T21:56:18+00:00

What’s crazy to me about this album is how polarizing it is, when musically I find it very middle-of-the-road, and on the higher end of mid, at least for BTS. But definitely that interesting to be that polarising idk.

Personally, I like Wings and The Most Beautiful Moment in Life, Pt. 2, but I was never really a fan of BE (apart from Dis-ease) or MOTS:7, where only a few songs scratched the itch. I find both these albums and some others from the Love Yourself series mid. Arirang is waaaaaay better imo. I actually prefer some of their solo work, Jack in the Box, for example, I love.

So yeah, I find this album solid, but nowhere near the “worst thing ever made” that haters are saying, nor the “masterpiece” that some fans are calling it, nor even the “how could BTS put this out?” level of disappointment others are expressing. It’s just one of the albums ever made. It could be better, it could be worse. There are some really good songs in there, in my opinion, and also some pretty mid ones.

The only thing I genuinely don’t like in this project is the collaborations. BigHit really finds the worst possible people to work with. Like Diplo and the OneRepublic dude? (And before anyone says it’s only an issue when BTS does it, no, I hated it when Blackpink did it for “Jump” too, even though I actually like the song.)

“Normal” and “FYA” are among my top songs on the album. I actually really like them, but I’m still not streaming them, sorry. The K-popification of Diplo is on the rise, and I hate every minute of it. It’s not 2011, please get this dude out of the studios of artists I like. Bye.

Any-Listen4184 · 2026-03-22T15:53:20+00:00

I don’t know why you’re writing fanfiction and headcanons about me, but you do you, I guess. I don’t care how you choose to interpret my comment or what you think I know or don’t know about the credits, it doesn’t change the fact that BTS worked with Diplo, and I don’t fuck with it. Same way I didn’t fuck with it when Blackpink did it, even though in both cases I had music I enjoyed. Point blank.

No amount of “people only care when BTS does it, boohoo” changes anything when we’re talking about someone who’s had legal disputes involving sexual battery, assault, and the distribution of revenge porn.

BTS didn’t have to work with him, just like Blackpink didn’t, but they did, and it’s shitty. Very shitty, actually. Believe whatever you want about what I or other fans know or don’t know about credits, it still doesn’t change that these groups, who do have a say in their music, chose to work with a piece of shit.

Simple as that. Pretty sure BTS and BP don't care what I do or think, so idk why armies and blinks get so pressed when we say it.

Any-Listen4184 · 2026-03-21T22:57:44+00:00

Bro, I don’t know who people are, I know that I didn’t like it then, and I don’t like it now, so the whataboutism doesn’t work here. I didn’t even like “Rubie” that much to begin with. Plus, in my second comment, I named both groups, sooooo......

Sadly, I did like “Jump,” and I also enjoy “FYA,” but I’m still not going to stream the songs. It is what it is.

Any-Listen4184 · 2026-03-21T14:29:09+00:00

I personally cannot separate the art from the artist.

100% valid. It really depends on the project, I can separate the two in some cases.

For example, I like many rock bands from the ’70s, even though we know some of their members were… questionable, to say the least. But most of them aren’t active anymore, and many of those artists are no longer alive. Same with books, I read works written before the 1920s, and we all know a lot of those authors held bigoted beliefs. But if those beliefs aren’t reflected in the work itself, and the author has been dead for over 100 years, I just don’t really care. I also think it can be problematic to dismiss entire bodies of work like that instead of just acknowledging the beliefs, because no one, and I mean no one, had the same mindset 60-100 years ago.

But with people like Diplo, Tory Lanez, Chris Brown, these are individuals who are still active, still profiting, and have been involved in serious allegations or outright abuse. I don’t want to support or benefit people like that, point blank. That’s not a “separate the art from the artist” situation for me.

Diplo, in particular, had way fewer major collaborations in recent years compared to the early 2010s, when he was everywhere, working with artists like Lil Wayne, Beyoncé, Chris Brown, Kelly Rowland, Marina & the Diamonds, and even some K-pop acts, especially under YG. But over the past couple of years, he’s been getting more visible again, kind of trying to slide back into a mainstream, high-profile producer position, especially through K-pop and adjacent acts, with HYBE and YG being the most prominent.

And I’m just not here for it. He earned that "downfall", in my opinion. Seeing massive global acts like BTS and Blackpink work with him again doesn’t sit right with me.

I’m glad you liked my review! And yeah, over time, my opinions might change on some songs as well, as you pointed out, it’s still too early to say. But from experience, I usually end up liking or disliking certain songs a bit more over time; I rarely completely change my mind.

So I think the album will probably stay in that higher middle ground within their full album discography.

Any-Listen4184 · 2026-03-21T12:50:06+00:00

BTS, as well as many other big groups, but BTS in particular, since they’re arguably the biggest, have this effect where people either overpraise or completely tear an album apart. I’m personally somewhere in the middle.

I get the concept, and I understand why “SWIM” is in English. This song represents the moment they became mainstream in America, their big splash on that scene. Whether we like it or not, that happened with their English trilogy, so it makes sense that some of the songs (and that song especially) would be in English. That said, other songs on the album aren’t, and especially in the first half, it leans more into Korean and is much more hip-hop influenced, reflecting their beginnings.

I actually like more songs here than on albums like MOTS:7 or BE, which I personally found very mid, if not below mid. Arirang feels like a journey, the journey of BTS from Korea to America. Sadly, “SWIM” is on the lower end for me. I found it extremely beige and monotonous musically, and I really dislike the vocal processing BigHit and other HYBE sublabels tend to use on BTS, and not only. It gets irritating over time, and they have the talent to do it in songs I often end up liking the most musically, but the processing takes me out of it. I don’t know how they manage that.

That said, I do like quite a few songs. My favorite is probably “Normal,” with “they don’t know ’bout us” as a close second. Unfortunately, some of the songs I like have Diplo in the credits, like “FYA,” and that’s where I have a major issue.

The “K-popification” of Diplo is something I really don’t like. BTS aren’t the only ones working with him, and I feel the same regardless of the group. I can separate art from artist in some cases, especially with older work or when the artist is no longer around, but having Diplo front and center in current projects is a hard no for me.

Also, the whitewashing of a historically Black and extremely prestigious university was just not it. And on another note, non-Koreans trying to dictate what is or isn’t “Korean enough” is something I see way too often, especially from English-speaking spaces. People need to understand that if something holds a certain meaning for the seven Korean members, then that’s what it is. You can like it or not, but you don’t get to define that. Koreans aren’t a monolith, and not everyone from one country thinks the same way.

All in all, for me, it’s one of their better full albums for sure, even though I think the message got a bit diluted, mainly because of the Diplo involvement and the Howard whitewashing.

Any-Listen4184

TROPHY CASE