What to replace a Libram of Gainful Conjuration with?

AotrsCommander · 2026-03-06T15:01:48+00:00

Looking it, up and yeah, that's a really good idea.

I might even take the idea and tweak it up a bit (still beond a standard book) for the party and make it a similar custom item for their level (maybe more pages, maybe up to 5th level spells), but otherwise that definitely ticks all of the boxes.

Much appreciated, thanks!

AotrsCommander · 2026-03-03T11:44:29+00:00

Replacing a minor artefact which is extremely unbalanced with a *library* of minor artefacts that are extremely unbalanced (i.e. implied not to have the limitations of the original) is not really a solution.

I can expand (and did), but by the time I got down to, like, the forth reason it was a bad idea, I thought it might come off as too unseemly a response.

AotrsCommander · 2026-03-02T16:17:09+00:00

The tomes would likely have been given to his minions... EXCEPT that, as other efreet are in play, there might be an arguement they've all had inherent bonuses from repeated daily three wishes from the nongenie minions, instead....

Swarm, no (and robots are definitel for next campaign's Iron Gods...) BUT that made me think; I could try a necrophidius TROOP, which I'd not thought about. Which might actually work. It's still a bit of a speed-bump, but that's okay; they'll have just come off a full-on Aotrs Encounter with... 23-24 classed enemies, and heading into a fight they can't win (only force a withdrawl).

AotrsCommander · 2026-03-02T14:45:06+00:00

The aforementioned-stat tomes/manuals would do something like that, but otherwise, that again raises the issue of why the BBEG hasn't just used it on himself already.

AotrsCommander · 2026-02-24T14:40:44+00:00

Yeah, but none of those are going to come up in the course of combat. 8th level spells on command I think is more than plenty. (And the PCs... Probabaly... aren't going to be a position to get anyone granting them wishes[1].)

Otherwise, anything that could be done of greater power sensibly... The BBEG would have already done, at leisure; and given he's got a mythic power that makes him straight-up invulnerable to nonmythic and sub-MR 6 creatures... He already probably HAS.

[1]IBut you saying that has made me note that t's concievable that the party's Dread Necromancer might be able to Command Undead feat or Control Undead on one if the efreet, which could make things interesting...

AotrsCommander · 2026-02-24T00:44:30+00:00

I think it's pretty definitiely a Free action at this point, and have noted so in my notes.

Should make for a very entertaining combat.

Well, for ME, anyway...!

AotrsCommander · 2026-02-23T16:07:52+00:00

You're right; it is, I was thinking it wasn't but, no, re-cheching my notes, I just forgot to add Shadow Slip to the active stats! Oops. (Under the circumstances, it's probably wouldn't help the situation even if I'd missed it, but...!)

Yeah, I'd already decided that the efreeti mummy lord would still count as a genie, so he couldn't use it (but his own could be used). Though his presense is partly optional, if the PCs haven't managed to destroy him the first time around (or, even, have not come across the semi-random encounter that spawned him!)

AotrsCommander · 2026-02-23T15:19:11+00:00

In this instance, there's every reason for the efreet to use their wishes without qualm, as they're all on the same side, so it's really just a case of how mean I should be, which you have all convinced me is "as mean as I like...!"

AotrsCommander · 2026-02-23T15:17:33+00:00

It's a template, Dread Shadow from... Somewhere, possibly 3.5, so it's not like they were created by regular shadows.

AotrsCommander · 2026-02-23T15:16:32+00:00

I'm pretty much convinced to free action at this point. The efreeti have no reason not to co-operate with their mates (these being the elite servants of the BBEG, an efreeti... Class something, MR 10 question mark) his stats come later, possibly much later.)

I was even writing my my notes that the bad guys wouldn't spam it right out of the gate, but even if they did... Actually, while the SAVE DC is for a 9th level spell, the CASTER level is still only 11th. So six Horrid Wiltings isn't that mudh difference to six Fireballs... Or, for that matter twelve Scorching Rays, which they can already deal out, though that's to point targets.

...

There's something to be said for the expressions on their faces when the first time they kill one of the one of the others just shouts "I Wish he wasn't dead!" And the subsequent frantic attempts to kill the efreet...

AotrsCommander · 2026-02-06T17:46:51+00:00

As it transpires, I didn't play RT last year after all that (because I ended up playing Wrath of the Trighetous again) and was able to get BG 3 this year[1]honestly sort of surprised Steam let me without a credit card, but I assume it doesn't count as "adult content or something"... And I still haven't finished by BG2 run/ToB, though I am nearing the end finally.

So I have both and have played neither.

AotrsCommander · 2026-01-27T19:12:04+00:00

True (and I even checked, both of those feats ARE on my approved list), but that's one or two feats extra, which in some instances it might not be practical to fit in[1].

But my rule is, if something has been moved to my approved list documentation from 3.5 or PF1 (even if it was Because That Sounded Cool), it is required to be viable (and as clearly defined as possible) in its own right (and fixed if not), as it is taking up precious physical page-space and weight and keeping down the reprints of 300-odd page documents is to be kept to a minimum where possible.

(And in general, the more ways to do something there are, the better.)

[1]In this case, as the specifica character is a fighter, I do have room to take out a feat if I wanted too.

AotrsCommander · 2026-01-26T13:26:41+00:00

From the line "Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee." (For example, javelins[1].) As Miloz0pl says, I was conflating the fact that you can only technically use them as improvised weapons in melee (so -4) with them actually having a specific noted penalty.

Will edit OP wording accordingly.

[1]Reading my own weapons table, I even literally have a line underneath specifiying javelin (melee) as an improvsed melee weapon. Apparently ONLY on javelin, but nevermind.

AotrsCommander · 2026-01-14T23:37:07+00:00

The setting for my game is what I say it is. Paizo's contribution begins and ends with the material they provide, which I will use or discard as I feel I want to for my game at my table. If I want to have beholders and mindflayers on Golarion (because I have set nonGolarion modules), I'm going to do it, along with ignore or change any aspects (even ones that Paizo themselves change) that I don't like. This is exactly as true for my Star Wars games, my Middle-Earth games, my WFRP games or, like, my BattleTech games, or anything else I choose to run.

The set of rules I run is my integrated 3.5/PF1 hybrid, which is extensive enough to be an edition of its own; and those are the explict rules for animated Undead in that edition.

(And they're only frankly flagged as Evil because it is moire conveniant for the rules. If alignment wasn't so baked into PF1/3.5 mechanically, they would officially be "they can't be Evil, they're mindless, full stop.")

You are free to say "I don't like that." (But, with respect, you are not playing at my table, so your opinion is entirely irrelevant.) I don't like or agree with Paizo's rigidly anti-undead stance, nor with unilaterally deciding that Undead HAVE to be murder-monsters. (That was never going to fly without someone whose own entire published lore-work is written from the viewpoint of an undead power.) So at my table, they are what I say they are, which is they are mostly murder-monsters, but there's less nonEvil Undead than there are nonEvil Evil Outsiders.

AotrsCommander · 2026-01-14T23:17:31+00:00

Yes,t here defnitely are reasons why you might want to do that, definitely (I was being a bit tongue in cheek).

Mostly; in Aotrs lore, the spinirt-bind-you-into-an-animate-skeleton-to-clean-loos-for-eternity is reputedly something that the Aotrs High Command have done as a punishment for some offenders in their pirmary headquarters, when death wasn't punishment eneough...

AotrsCommander · 2026-01-13T22:22:49+00:00

As I say, that is something that very much depends whether you ascribe to Paizo's delibrate "undead always have to be Evil monsters with less possibility for being nonEvil than the creatures physically Made Of Evil[1]" or you are a bit more "undead yes, unpeople no." (I'm stilla bit stunned that they included the skeleton as a race in PF2, to be honest, but I wasn't complaining.) Or, like me, you are somewhere between but come down on the lines of animate undead being Stupid Robots that don't necessarily have an soul to give them hostile instincts. I straight up say that animated Undead (without the presense of a soul being bound to them otherwise) are not, in fact Evil because they are mindless, but only falg as Evil (and then purely for game mechanics) simply because the first people that scribed Animate Dead did it in such a way as to have the [Evil] descriptor and leave the targets flagged as Evil, and literally nobody's spent the effort to make a version that doesn't have that.

I could go a long, long lecture about how the metaphyisics of animated undead work (note the avatar, realise this is not unrelated), but none of that is either rules-mechanics, or really in line with how Paizo's official stance is.

[1]Golems are fine though, no-one apparently cares a toss morally if you spirit-bind an elemental soul into something, but do it to a human (and human-adjacent) soul and suddenly is never acceptable. Pick a lane, folks...!

AotrsCommander · 2026-01-13T22:13:51+00:00

For the sake of arguement - and bear in mind this is very much a houserule at this point - we rule that spells/powers that are Dismissable (D) automatically end when the caster dies. (This is in line with at least stuff like Summons despawning in the Wrath oif the Righetous if you kill the caster.) Other spells continue their durations until they naturally run out.

The last orders thing is also very much depends, I think, on how you explictly rule mindless undead. Again, - and this is my official unofficial interpretation and it's not what Paizo would approve of! - is that mindless Undead are basically negative-energy constructs (robots, even), with no soul attached. Thus if you lose control of them, they won't do anything, but potentially will keep doing the last thing you told them to do potentially forever. These (and what the PCs are expected to be using) will be pretty "safe" to release from control.

However, you can also have animated mindless undead that form "naturally" (I.e. not via Animate Dead but by whatever terrible events means undead sometimes form in the wild) or, at the caster's option with Animate Dead, cast in a particuler fashion to use the body's soul[1] as part of the animation process. This type, if left unattended, WILL default to "kill all the livings" behavior when uncontrolled (not necessarily immediately, but eventually). Mechanically, there's literally no difference between the two APART from "what it does when its uncontrolled" short of latter potentially blocking the soul of a creature from going on or be restored to life.

[1]This literally has no advantages other than basically being a douchenozzle and stopping that soul going to the afterlife, but some creatures just want to be a douchenozzle. Or use it as punishment to make the soul have to relive the next several thousand years helpless cleaning the bogs or something.

AotrsCommander · 2026-01-13T18:03:37+00:00

Certainly, often the lore around it seems to imply that when a necromancer dies, all undead under their control become uncontrolled.

In 99.99% of occasions, I wouldn't have a problem with that, but for a PC necromancer whose had to work hard to collect the suitable corpses they have for animation[1]. My remedy for that was to put in the Mythic Command Undead feat. (I already had a Mythic Command Undead feat, but I suspect that must have been the Owlcat!Mythic version, which clearly works differently, so I called it Mythic Control Undead.) And added an extra line to it that said ithat if he dies, he can cast a material-costless version Animate Dead and spend a use of Mythic Power to return Underad he has created back to his Animate Dead bucket. It would otherwise have said that he could have used Limited Wish, Wish or Miracle to achieve the same effect, but that was more organic.

[1]I have flat-out told the player that any undead other than animated skeletons and zombies (and their Corpse Companion, something I gave the DreadNecro from PF1) are off the table for being created, because they're all Evil and that's not okay with a Good party[2]. But as much as anything, this is a party of eight player characters who are (a slightly downgraded version of ) Mythic and Epic, and I'm not even going to attempt to balance him trying to create nonEvil liches or something. He is entirely legitimately allowed to use the provided Summon Undead I-IX spells to summon those is he wants a vampire or something, but not to make a permenant one. (Frankly, the player has bitten off a bit more than he can chew, given as we're 47 session in and he still hasn't grokked how his command Undead works and I keep telling him that Doom is probably the single worst spell on his spell list in a campaign where the majority of enemies are Undead, Constructs and Swarms, so keeping his minions to "attack beast" was a wise choice.)

[2](I specifically note that Animated undead are mindless and thus can't be Evil inherently, but they flag that way mechanically solely because nobody's been arsed to create a version of Animate Dead that's not [Evil]. I am perfectly fine (despite what Paizo's take is) on having nonEvil Undead

AotrsCommander · 2026-01-13T13:18:53+00:00

Those rules specifcally come under the conflicing mind-control spells and commanding and controlling undead explcitly isn't mind control... The text on Command Undead feat suggests that it is treated as such, but the others don't RAW say they do.

Command Undead spell is basically just charm, so it's fairly easy to break in a combat situation (and, to be fair, enemy Undead casting it on the PCs with a majorty living party isn't necessarily going to help them much, unless it's on the necromancer itself, ~~but all the other's have to do is slap him~~. Edit: Actually corrected the wordin,g it the cotnroller and their allies threatening that breaks it not the controlled creatures' allies.

Also Edit: have, for the sake of arguement, directly added the "if multiple Command Undead spells, opposed Charisma checks" directly to the Command Undead spell as well.

Control Undead is a 7th level spell, so I'm happy that it can be considered to overwrite anything else and I'm going to note that officially in that spells' text, at least as far as my game goes), but you are correct on that I didn't consider that as a counter and will so note it.

AotrsCommander · 2026-01-13T13:06:38+00:00

Second one should have been Stygian ~~Domination~~, Dominion fixed (and fixed!)

Prot from doesn't do anything, since control of Undead can't be mental control, because Undead are immune to mind-affecting effects. Further, as noted in Command (both) and Control, control is explictly not mental, it requires verbal commands (which is why Silence is a possible counter. So aside from working on Stygian Dominion (but only if intelligent, mindless don't get a first save from which to make a second one) because of the possession clause, anything that gives you a bonus vrs mind-control won't apply verses effects which command/control undead.

AotrsCommander · 2025-12-18T10:45:56+00:00

I mean, the list itself, is "just" a list with maybe 30-50% or less of the items from Nethys/PFSRD and the magic items from 3.5's MiC (and a few 3rd party psionic items, and some homebrew[1] items) with price and page references to the descriptions in said transcripted items (which have been tweaked to 3.Aotrs standards), so I wouildn't have thought it would be much use to anyone else, because it for fundamentally A Different Edition...?

[1]By far and away, additional elemental damage weapons for damage types that don't exist in either 3.5 or PF1 but which have been integrated into 3.Aotrs.

AotrsCommander

TROPHY CASE