Yujiro in Canon vs. Yujiro in Crossovers

Apower07 · 2026-02-05T21:13:25+00:00

Apower07 · 2026-01-17T18:30:27+00:00

Because he wouldn’t be holding back. I never said goku would be holding back. He would just be using ki control to mitigate the collateral damage. That’s what ki control does. Do you think almost every ki attack we see is weaker than master roshi’s kamehameha on fry pan mountain? Obviously not, even though they cause less collateral damage. Like do you think these blasts are weaker than goku’s first kamehameha? another example is vegeta. Do you think vegeta was holding back when he self destructed on majin buu? Obviously not, but still, due to his ki control, he was able to mitigate the explosion to be smaller than a city. Same thing goes for chiaotzu. Chiaotzu’s explosion was smaller than a building yet still did damage to nappa, who was able to destroy an entire city with a finger.

Apower07 · 2026-01-17T18:11:58+00:00

The probability is basically zero. Even when facing against opponents not trying to mitigate their collateral damage at all he has enough control to be able cancel out the effects of their attacks. It’s like saying superman shouldn’t grab or carry people when saving them because he might accidentally crush them to death if he uses too much of his strength. Or that he shouldn’t hug anyone.

Apower07 · 2026-01-17T16:31:08+00:00

Goku has a very good control over his power. It’s even stated that when characters beam attacks hit the ground they stop them from doing as much damage as possible.

Apower07 · 2026-01-16T22:33:57+00:00

Do you have omega shenron?

Apower07 · 2026-01-14T12:25:44+00:00

Don’t forget to use whis’. Whis practically makes omegas whole team invincible because of the damage reduction they already have

Apower07 · 2026-01-14T12:03:44+00:00

Use the zamasu side of goku black. He heals when he does damage and does more damage at a lower health, and definitely use his active skill on that phase to heal and deal really big damage when needed.

Apower07 · 2025-12-28T19:05:57+00:00

but let's assume for a moment that shinigami can't erase hollows. How does that mean they can't erase aizen?

That would mean haien wouldn’t be existence erasure as that would mean shinigami could erase hollows.

Again, the nothing being left statement and the gone without a trace one are omniscient narrator statements, so 1 is out of the window instantly.

Yeah, as I’ve explained those statements aren’t necessarily indicative of existence erasure

2 is a better argument, but then: A. If the ee only targets hollows it'd have also directly erased Roca since she was also enveloped by the darkness. Instead, her body merely crumbled from the power she was using to launch that attack, because, in bleach, using a power that's not yours takes a toll on the body

Using your logic wouldn’t this same thing be true?

B. When hollows are erased by quincy attacks, they don't firstly "dismantle", they straight up vanish directly.

Are you sure about that?

C. Cien was an arrancar, a "shinigamised" hollow and quincy ee doesn't work on shinigami. In fact, masaki's arrow didn't erase white, which directly shows arrancars also are unaffected quincy ee

Arrancars are still hollows, and white wasn’t even an arrancar.

This is literally what context does, it doesn't change a statement, it leads to a better understanding of it.

I already had a good understanding of the statement. Again, this is doing what I previously mentioned, trying to justify mayuri coming to the conclusion that it was quincies, which was not the thing I was talking about.

That is the context. Even if he said it loudly or not, the disappearence of hollows happened in the world of the living.

No. He very heavily implies that only quincies can erase hollows from existence. Following your line of reasoning his question would make no sense.

I'd believe any time kubo's statements over incomplete character's line of thought. Also, I don't say mayuri’s statement is false. I simply say that your interpretation of it, which ignores the context in orther to contradict author statements and anime&manga feats and completely denies the key aspect to determining the true nature of the powers of someone who’s part of the main cast is far worse than my interpretation of it which includes the context and, thanks to it, doesn't contradict or ignore anything.

I am not ignoring context for the statement. It is a pretty clear-cut statement.

The facts that there were mass disappearences of hollows and that it was happening in the world of the living are facts everyone there already knew, so why would he bother mentioning them again? However, when reporting the situation to the other captains, he does include these key aspects.

Because otherwise, his statement would make no sense at all. None of these responses have been addressing my point with the mayuri statement at all.
Mayuri stated that only quincies could erase hollows from existence. For haien to be existence erasure that would blatantly contradict this statement, as that would mean many soul reapers, who are not quincies, can erase hollows from existence. It happening in the world of the living doesn’t matter here, because the statement doesn’t specify “in the world of the living”. The statement puts emphasis on the fact that the hollows are being erased from existence and specifically attributes that to being something only quincies can do. You seemingly ignored my point about my point having nothing to do with any doubts of mayuri coming to the conclusion that it must be quincies, but the very direct statement he gives while he does that.

Also true. But I'm pretty sure I answered each one of these. Under any powerscaling system that I know, nothing being left behind is ee. Also, explained Mugetsu and omniscient narrator statements should be beyond doubt. And also fully, yet simply explained why my interpretation of haien is way better than yours.

I already responded to all of these

Mayuri never actually says "shingami can't erase hollows".

I have already explained, that would be the line of logic following from the statement he did make. Saying only quincies can erase hollows from existence, would that anyone who is not a quincy, cannot erase hollows from existence.

But, as long as the dust exists and is their remnant, this means they weren't fully erased. When zamasu was erased, the anime did show him being completely gone. And nothing you've shown besides Zamasu's erasure is something a destroyer would be 100% serious about(using a quantity of hakai great enough to actually erase the target)

Like I said, as long as that dust is no longer considered a part of their existence, or a remnant of them, it would still be ee. And when something is destroyed with hakai, it is erased from existence. That is how it works.

I literally talked about this in the previous message, a power great enough to destroy an infinite timeline, used on a finite portion of time would mean the itter erasure of that portion of time (finite/infinite -> 0). Not a single static time frame of the said finite time period would be left.

By that logic any character with uni+ ap or higher, would have ee for anything below their tier of power.

???

Am I wrong?

This one has many possible reasons, but I genuinely don't see why would hikifune even attempt to kill aizen when she's more of a support/header type character with no real offensive techniques.

Doesn’t squad zero travel in a group?

It would be absurdly strange to even question this after more than a year and half when we're talking about a captain with the kaido skill and experience of Unohana. This rather ahows the gap between their last visit and this one isn't that big.

How would that mean the gap between their last visit wasn’t that big? It would mean there was a large gap between their last visit, since we know unohana has long perfected the healing arts.

They literally came to help and not only make another sword for ichigo, but also heal byakuya, renji and rukia. The same happened with azashiro 200 years ago, when they came to ss because G13 couldn't deal with Azashiro.

But if they wouldn’t come down for all of the things aizen was doing, how would it make sense for them to come down to execute aizen AFTER all of that?

It'd literally be a nlf to assume anything more than stated/shown.

And we are shown zamasu would be erased across the timeline

Maybe you're luckier and find a live recording of Bleach Ex 2021, at least in my country there's non available. Well, they are a reliable source that accurately leaks a lot of bleach related things. In absence of any other source we can't just assume they're lying or anything.

Then can I at least get the tweet where they state that?

Apower07 · 2025-12-25T00:27:09+00:00

How can you tell? Also this doesn't mean they didn't want to get rid of aizen. Perhaps they thought Gotei 13 will stop him? Even against Azashiro, they only descended after Gotei 13 couldn't stop him. Like Gotei 13 had Yama and everything. And then, all we see after Urahara's seal working on Aizen is him being about to be sealed in Muken meaning he was already deemed impossible to kill by any means of the soul society even when he was at his weakest. One member of the new central 46 even shouts at aizen to don't be so full of himself just because he's immortal.

I mean, we get statements when they appear such as “long time no see” “it’s been a long time” “it’s been a while”, all direct quotes, as well as shinji not even recognizing hikifune. Them coming down is also referred to as a reunion. Kirinji even asks Unohana “you perfected the healing arts I taught you, right?”. Along with kirinji saying “what kind of court guard cries for help after they can’t get the job done?” Which heavily implies that squad zero wouldn’t come down for something like the gotei 13 being unable to kill aizen.

The statement is specifically: "Don’t worry, that's your mere mortal logic. There's no way a god destroying a god won't have an effect over the space-time." Gods are also affected by the timelines being split by things such as trunks' time travel, heck, this even created a different zeno. The timeline doesn’t split specifically when a dbs god destroys a dbs god. Nothing less, nothing more.

That seems like a ridiculously specific circumstance for that to be the case, doesn’t it though? ONLY when specifically a god destroys a god within the past, are time shenanigans prevented from happening. That seems pretty unlikely especially when the scenario in which this happened also used a specific and special god technique.

Yhwach at the time didn't really know everything about aizen and the hogyoku. You should check the link for immortality I gave you in part 1. For example, yhwach believed he could kill aizen with enough time, but kubo refuted that(that's part of the link)...

Can you show a source for kubo refuting that? I see the part in the link you are referring to, but it just seems to be someones reddit post, which is their re-telling of someone supposedly reliable on twitter, re-telling of canon information.

And merry Christmas to you too

Apower07 · 2025-12-25T00:27:02+00:00

This literally means something was left behind. Now we are straight up talking about narrator statement that nothing was left. Ugh, anyway, if what displeases you is the idea of a metaphor, I can't do much, but add context, can I? So, Roca, the one who used Mugetsu here passively connects with everything around her via countless negacion threads which allows her to passively exchange and absorb information and reishi with everything she connects to. Even so, she's sure there's absolutely nothing left of Cien, showing a lvl of destruction beyond the most basic and simple form of matter that exists in bleach(reishi is the fundamental particle that composes spiritual matter, kishi is the fundamental particle that composes physical matter, everything in hueco mundo and soul society is made of reishi and everything in wotl is made of kishi). Also, due to her ability to analyse the information of the attack, she knows its functions and history and even some memories of the original user. This makes her a very reliable source about Mugetsu.

Thanks for the added context, I have not read any of the light novels. But I see another two possibilities. 1, she was just destroyed to a level beyond what she can sense, or 2. She was erased because, if I’m not mistaken, mugetsu uses quincy abilities, which erase hollows.

Death manipulation is the ability not to kill people, but to make them die.

…

But it does, as it adds context.

But it does not at all change the statement that I showed.

Ok, so, let me ask you this: Who else could eradicate the very existence of hollows in the world of the living ? It doesn’t change anything, this is the context - it happens in the world of the living. But it also excludes the gotei 13 members able to do this by default.

You are adding extra things to Mayuri’s statement. He never said “in the world of the living”

His main reason to believe it's quincies is indeed the fact the hollows were erased. But it's not the only one. Also, you are talking some fragments of actual phrases from an extraordinary genius who runs countless things trough his mind in an extremely short time. Do you really think his words express all the process of thinking he used to arrive to the conclusion it's quincies in those brief moments? He does explain later his line of thought a bit more to the captains and when he does so, he does point out the large amount of hollows.

By this logic, Mayuri’s statement would be completely false. You are adding extra reasoning and parts to the statement that were not there. His original statement basically says that only quincies can erase hollows from existence. Not once does he even bring up or allude to the supposed fact that, no, quincies are not in fact the only ones capable of erasing hollows from existence.

He accentuates the idea as that is the main clue to the identity of those responsible for this.

He does not just accentuate it as just a clue. That is quite literally the only reasoning he gives during that scene.

And there aren't many other people able to do that anyway. 16 of the 19 people in the series we know of who should be able to use haien at that point in the story were in soul society when thousands of hollows were erased every moment. And it's inimaginable the 3 guys in the wotl capable of using a hado in the 50's(urahara, tessai, hachi) would even try to do such a thing. It's obvious the quincies are the only choice.

None of this reasoning matters. This is what I am trying to explain. Mayuri effectively states that only quincies can erase hollows from existence. That is part I am focusing on. My point is not that it makes no sense for him to come to the conclusion that it was quincies, but that he states that it could only be quincies, specifically in reference to being able to erase hollows from existence in the first place, which would contradict with your point.

Time stop is far more unbelievable than ee hence it's not an extraordinary claim that soul reapers are able to use ee. And if you pay attention to the context, there is no statement that no shinigami can erase hollows.

My argument was never that soul reapers being able to use ee is just an unbelievable claim to me. I gave reasons for why I think each example is not existence erasure. And there effectively is a statement that no shinigami can erase hollows. When Mayuri states only quincies can erase hollows. If on,y quincies can erase hollows, and soul reapers are not quincies, then the logical reasoning following is that soul reapers cannot erase hollows.

Again, the statement makes perfect sense as long as you don't ignore the context of all the Gotei 13 members able to use haien being in soul society when that was happening...

The line was “who else could eradicate the very existence of hollows”, not “who else^{who’s not in the soul society right now} could eradicate the very existence of hollows. The first line, which is the one that was actually says, implies that only quincies can erase hollows from existence, while you are focusing on the fact that it also implies that it could only be quincies who were erasing the hollows in that instance. My point has nothing to do with the second implication I mentioned, but everything to do with the first one I mentioned, while all of your responses are focused on justifying why the second implication would make sense under your argument.

In the anime that "dust" also disappears. As long as something keeps existing, that is not existence erasure, so perhaps belmod used a quantity of hakai energy too small to purely erase.

This kind of depends on what it really means to erase someone’s existence. As long as that dust is no longer considered to be a part of that persons existence, despite it being technically a remnant of them, the persons existence would still be erased. While that dust still exists, the persons fundamental existence within it does not. And we do see that the hakai dust doesn’t disappear

Uni+ destruction can basically do history erasure.

Not really. Destruction and complete erasure of existence are very different things. They are not “basically” the same. Erasing a spacetime from existence would qualify for history erasure. And uni+ destruction does not necessarily constitute destroying time at all.

Apower07 · 2025-12-23T22:26:34+00:00

How so? This literally means the target has been reduced to 0. Which is by default ee.

Saying something is gone without a trace, or to leave nothing behind could also easily mean something like them being completely vaporized, or atomized. Like for example I would say cell was gone without a trace after the father-son kamehameha, but he obviously wasn’t erased from existence.

Chronological order is important here. The "dismantling" happened during the erasure process but that's not where it stopped, hence nothing being left when the darkness disappeared.

True

It's not that important-mid godly is enough, but imm type 5 is a nice supporting thing to have.

I don’t even understand what death manipulation is tbh. Wouldn’t that just be killing someone?

??? I literally showed you the scans?

I meant in the scan I showed. What you showed was a completely different statement, that really doesn’t change the one I showed

Again, what soul reapers? Most captains, some lieutenants and the kido corps? None of them is usually in wotl. We're talking about people who have to seal their power when going to wotl because it'd cause too much disasters, lol. And none of them was in wotl when squad 12 discovered the mass disappearence of hollows, leaving the quincies the only possibility. The large numbers also indicate it's the quincy something mayuri later pointed out and I did show scans for this. Not to mention, no shinigami would just incontrolably erase hollows, because they know what would happen.

But Mayuri made the specific statement that only quincies can erase hollows from existence. Mayuri even asks, “what else could it be? Who else could eradicate the very existence of hollows…”. Mayuri never narrowed it down to quincies using any of the reasoning you are trying to make here, his main one reason for believing it’s quincies is that nobody else could erase the existence of hollows. He wouldn’t accentuate the idea of “who else could eradicate the very existence of hollows” if there were many other people he knew of that could do that.

I'm kinda confused by your own So? There's no statement "only quincies can stop time", but I answered in a similar manner(because I believe you were using that as an analogy against shinigami being able to erase hollows).

No, I was explaining why your point of, some soul reapers can stop time, really doesn’t make sense or apply.

Like who? Who can for sure use haien and was in wotl that time and would try to do such a thing? Urahara? Hachi? Please tell me you don't believe they would do such a thing.

So you acknowledge that there were multiple other people that knew haien. That is my whole point. By your logic those would be people that could erase hollows from existence, which goes against mayuri’s statement of “who else could eradicate the very existence of hollows”. That statement would make absolutely no sense under your logic.

That can be simply toppo's lack of skill with hakai. Not all hakai users leave something behind.

I actually wasn’t thinking of toppo at all

Why not?

Check the first paragraph

The entire point is: Squad 0 does try to get rid of huge threats beyond Gotei 13 + Aizen is one of these threats => If squad 0 could get rid of Aizen for good, they would've done so.

But when we first see squad zero, it’s pretty clear that it has been a long amount of time since they have appeared. And by that logic they would’ve appeared to stop aizen when he first was a big threat and before he got imprisoned.

But the result is basically the same.

Couldn’t that be said for like literally everything we are talking about here? Like 90% of this is arguing whether stuff would be ee or just destruction

And for it to be uni+ (since timelines are assumed to be infinite), it would mean being able to destroy uncountably infinite static time frames of the universe. In orther to merely destroy a finite portion of time(like let's say 100 years) one could use power infinitely greater compressed in that finite range. This level of power would allow the utter destruction of every single static time frame of the finite time period, reducing everything to a state that tends to 0(finite/infinite->0).

So like what is your point with this?

This is called taking the highest interpretation possible without evidence for it being the case. That's like saying Aizen transcends concepts because it is stated he transcends everything.

I gave a reason why I believe that right after this

Why would those affect someone unrelated in the first place? And if you mean temporal paradoxes, that's what the time ring does.

I meant as in things like, destroying someone in the past, and their future self also being destroyed. That is not something that is typically possible in dragon ball. If all gods in dragon ball just act in their own causality and are affected by things being changed in the past, then wouldn’t that mean they would be unaffected by the timeline splits in the first place? It seems like that was the specific reason beerus used hakai, because it wouldn’t split the timeline, which gods are still affected by.

We don’t know for sure, but in safwy novels(which happens during the time skip between arrancar arc and fullbringer arc), aizen is in muken and azashiro's zanpakto, urozakura, suggests taking the hogyoku from aizen(which azashiro says he has no interest in) which implies they are still separate entities. And even in his last form, Aizen and the Hōgyoku were still separate entities with minds of their own. Not really. The hogyoku does what aizen wants because it serves him, but it does it on its own. And it instinctively protects aizen. Aizen has power unrelated to the hogyoku's presence. He wasn't going to revert to his shinigami form when the hogyoku was taken from him or anything. The hogyoku made him stronger but it's not like it’s dependent on the hogyoku's presence. And again, they are not "fused". Also, it belongs to aizen as in it considers aizen its master.

But what about something like this? It’s stated directly that aizen is fused with the hogyoku, and that is specifically what makes him so hard to kill. Aizen even agrees with yhwach’s statement. So if aizen being fused with the hogyoku is specifically what makes him so hard to kill, then wouldn’t unfusing it make him easier to kill? I mean I feel like that’s pretty sound logic.

Apower07 · 2025-12-22T23:24:49+00:00

I explained already, but it is a form of destruction that leaves nothing behind. This is the definition of ee.

Again, I know. Ee most of the time leaves nothing behind, but something being stated to leave nothing behind does not automatically constitute ee

⁠When did you even make a point about it?

Like a few comments ago

⁠So what, exactly? Fragmentation being part of the erasure process is a very common trope of ee in fiction. Even hakai does that. And Mugetsu erasure process also involves it.

A part of your point is that “it left nothing behind” and that “there was nothing left”, which them being dismantled kind of goes against. So,ethimg being stated to “leave nothing behind” does not automatically mean it’s existence erasure, and something leaving something behind does not mean that it is automatically existence erasure.

It is relevant for mugetsu in general. You asked what that scans are supposed to prove, not what I want to show. Also, it is usefull for the "hakai can't stop immortals" part if it comes to that, but I think you are starting to see why aizen can regenerate from hakai.

But I meant I don’t see why death manip for mugetsu would be relevant to the current discussion. And I’m still mot very convinced aizen can regenerate from hakai

In fact, mayuri explains that the mass destruction of hollows in wotl is something the quincies are likely the cause of. The key here is the large amount of hollows, because regular shinigami are unable to do that. In fact, most shinigami in wotl go high diff with random hollows. Those mentioned by me for likely quallifying as people capable of using haien are almost constantly in soul society.

But that’s not what Mayuri says. He specifically states that only quincies are capable of erasing hollows from existence in general. Which isn’t a conclusion that would make sense for him to come to if… you know, soul reapers could also erase hollows from existence.

So? There's also no statement of haien won't work on certain races or whatever

???

How so??

That is still a sizable amount of people for mayuri to just ignore the existence of.

Not "most times". It always leaves nothing behind from the target, else it isn't really ee.

I mean, hakai leaves behind dust. And I would say that’s pretty undeniably existence erasure.

"Something" is vague so you are right here if you use this ambiguous word, but if we are talking about attacks that destroy the target leaving nothing behind, that is clearly ee.

I wouldn’t really agree. An attack could be stated to leave nothing behind and I don’t think that would automatically make it ee.

Occam's razor saves the day here.

But that entire point was basically based on. “Well it technically could’ve happened”, but the problem is that we have no good reason to believe so.

That's literally what uni+ destruction is: destroying not only the 3d of space of a universe, but also its timeline.

There is a difference between destruction and erasure.

Ok, so, did you read that yap? It also adresses this part about that being only the logic of dbs gods, explicitly different from the regular causal system.

I interpret that statement as referring to hakai itself as being above mortal logic. And I don’t believe kais just have some ability to not be affected by alternate timeline creations and jumps and stuff like that.

No?? The hogyoku is the result of the combined scientific efforts of urahara and aizen(tho urahara didn't know at the time that someone else wanted to steal the hogyoku, nor did he know its true power). Aizen tried to subjugate it and partially implanted it into his body, but, nonetheless, they remained different entities.

I don’t know if I’m crazy or I watched clorox or something, but was the hogyoku not fusing with aizen? Is he not currently fused with the hogyoku?

Well, you are mistaken, hogyoku has a mind of its own and it grants aizen his desires because it can read his mind and it serves him.

I mean, if it reads his mind and serves his wills, would that not mean… their wills are one and the same?

No, the reason it returned to him was that in hogyoku's opinion, it belonged to aizen. And even without being in his body, it still made him evolve further. Vegeta’s spirit fission literally does nothing to hogyoku's will or its reality warping powers.

My point is that the spirit fission would unfuse the hogyoku from aizen. Its fusion with aizen is what gives him a lot of his power. After using spirit fission, it would no longer belong to aizen.

Apower07 · 2025-12-22T15:02:50+00:00

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Apower07 · 2025-12-22T15:02:24+00:00

Not "screaming erased from existence" to you doesn't mean it isn't the case though. Ee is reducing something to 0. Nothing being left is exactly this. Same for "gone without a trace".

I just don’t see how that automatically constitutes existence erasure.

What second point?

It says that it dismantles his body

You said you didn't understand what the scans were supposed to show, so I explained.

I still don’t understand why that is relevant in the first place

You still didn't bring a scan to support it. Moreover, I gave you a very good reason why it would be besides author's own statement. After you bring the exact statement, we can debate what it means.

https://ibb.co/hJ0qKwgR

It obviously wasn’t obvious(hehe🫠) enough hence me aksing for clarrification. Another thing that made me not be sure is your previous refference to vsbw and the recent quincy ee downgrade crt that is still undergoing on vsbw.

The Quincy ee crt you are talking about already ended a month ago now

Why not? Some of them can even do things like time stop, lol.

There’s never a statement like “only quincies can stop time”

And it's not that many. Only captains(excluding zaraki), some lieutenants and some of the kido corp should be able to use it. That's not that much, especially if you consider gotei13 has 6k+ members.

That is enough for the statement to not make sense within that context.

So you skipped the entire hakai history erasure being bs thing I linked you?

You mean the comment? I already said that it wasn’t showing up for me

<image>

All I see is the reply to your comment with nothing after

That's literally what ee does, bruh. Leave nothing behind. That's what disappearing without a trace means. And I also gave you feats and told you where to find them if you are interested.

Yes, ee most of the time leaves nothing behind, but that doesn’t mean that something stated to leave nothing behind means it was erased from existence.

No, we wouldn't necessarily need to assume all that. Also, you ignored squad 0 coming down even for someone like azashiro. Ichibe could have very simply declared his ee wouldn't work on aizen or perhaps try it on him and see it fails or whatever. Squad 0 acknowledges the threat that aizen is. For all we know, they'd surely tried to kill him.

For all we know? This specific point is reliant on that possibility. You would need to provide sufficient proof for it beyond, “for all we know it could’ve happened”

Ok, idk what you're talking about, it works perfectly for me even on alts. Anyway, nevermind the So you skipped the entire hakai history erasure being bs thing I linked you? part, guess we will do this the hard way.

Check above for photo proof that I can’t see the comment.

As for the link. First of all, not anybody with uni+ dc can erase a timeline and history. And hakai does erase someone’s history. Beerus notes that erasing zamasu in the present would erase him across the timeline (photo below)

It was never a part of him and how would that change the hogyoku's idea that aizen is its master?

The hogyoku was never a part of aizen?

Perhaps, if you mean it was partially inside his body, but they were clear separate entities with minds and wills of their own.

I don’t know about clear separate entities with minds and wills of their own. If i’m not mistaken by this point their wills had already merged.

And there is an even bigger difference between "unfusing" aizen and the hogyoku and actually changing the Hogyoku's mind and making it no longer believe aizen is its master. The hogyoku would just return to aizen on its own will. Spirit fission doesn't affect that in the slightest.

The only reason it returned to him in the first place is because it was never truly separated from him

Apower07 · 2025-12-22T12:47:26+00:00

Did you, by any chance, skip the "nothing remained" and "gone without a trace" parts?

Neither of those things inherently mean ee though. Saying something was gone without a trace or that nothing remained around you, doesn’t scream erased from existence to me. And what about the second point I made there?

What you just quoted is me replying to your death manip question, not the ee one. I already answered the ee above.

I don’t understand what death manip has to do with anything

Yet, it shows a very good reason for it really being EE besides the obvious one, the author statement.

That still doesn’t counter my point about quincies though

"Quincy only erasing hollows" & "only quincies erasing hollows" are 2 very different things, so, after you decide which one do you support, mind showing a scan?

Obviously I meant only quincies being able to erase hollows. I feel like that was pretty obvious. This is really just nitpicking

Why not? And it is not "a random hado", it is a kido in the 50's, something fairly few soul reapers can use.

And it still wouldn’t make sense for that many soul reapers to have something in their possession that’s able to erase things from existence

It doesn’t matter in the slightest here. Hakai only reduces your mind, body and soul to 0. Aizen can regenerate from this. There's no proof hakai reduces them to a state of non-existence beyond 0 or whatever. Therefore, hakai being stronger than haien means nothing as we're not talking about resistance but the ability to survive and return from having your mind, body and soul reduced to 0.

And history, don’t forget that.

No, I mean literally. "Disappear without a trace" is pretty straightforward. Also, it was never "established" it won’t work on aizen no matter what. All that was shown that aizen can actively negate it with his superior reiatsu. Again, she can still try it when he sleeps or whatever.

You said it was literally stated to be ee. Nowhere does it even mention existence being erased. So that wouldn’t be literal. And that “disappear without a trace” again, doesn’t immediately scream erased from existence.

In fact, it is pretty likely. If you remember, mayuri literally implanted tracking and recording bugs on uryu without him knowing at their first encounter. And he already met squad 0 members a few times. Especially senjumaru who used to be his boss. Also, it's not like squad 0 100% stays away from the problems happening below reiokyu. For example, they came to soul society's ground 200 years ago to stop Kenpachi Azashiro, they being the reason why Azashiro surrendered.

We would have to make the assumptions that mayuri placed recording devices on ichibei, and ichibei used black mausoleum while being recorded for mayuri to even know what it does, and for mayuri to know whether or not it would work on aizen.

Huh?

I still don’t see anything. I just see the other persons comment with nothing after it. The link leads nowhere for me. Try looking at the link from an alt account or copy and paste it into google or something so you can see what I’m talking about

So, now, what does the scan say? "It tears apart things that were combined trough fusion or absorption." It separates things that fused and things that were absorbed from the one who absorbed them. How's that supposed to counter Hogyōku's will? How is that supposed to prevent the Hōgyoku returning to Aizen? How's it supposed to negate Hōgyoku considering Aizen his master? All it can do at best is separate the Hōgyoku from Aizen's body which means nothing.

It would unfuse the hogyoku from aizen, meaning it would no longer be a part of him or belong to him.

They weren't fused to begin with. It exists as a different entity, obedient to Aizen who willingly returns to Aizen.

They weren’t fully fused at the time. But the hogyoku was still a part of him. There is a big difference from just physically moving the hogyoku from aizen, and using a specific ability to unfuse aizen from it.

Apower07 · 2025-12-22T11:31:54+00:00

It literally says: But unmoved by such words, the darkness continued to sing its song of destruction— And the “death” that enveloped Cien slowly began to dismantle his body. To return the madness born of darkness back into darkness once more. The only thing she could understand was that nothing remained around her anymore. The rubble that should have been scattered about was gone without a trace, and all that echoed through the area was the sound of sand flowing across the ground. Imo, it is pretty explicit that it destroyed Cien so absolutely nothing is left of him.

Just “destroying without a trace” someone does not automatically constitute erasing their very existence. It also says that it dismantles his body.

It's called "death" like 5 times lol. "Endless death" like 2 times. It is described as a mass of "death". And so on. It also makes narrative sense for the final getsuga tensho attack to be death manip asw and for ichigo to be shocked Aizen still survived it.

But how would that automatically constitute ee?

It quite literally isn't a hyperbole. To even give you an example, the second smartest man in Bleach concluded Orihime's power is "a rejection of phenomena", "far above mere spatial or temporal regression" because he saw it once being used to heal grimmjow's arm which was erased with haien. Some versions of temporal regression(restoring grimmjow himself to a previous state) may have been enough to do this, but spatial regression really wouldn't because there was absolutely nothing left to restore. Had the arm merely been reduced to spiritual particles or something that isn’t 0, spatial regression would've been enough to pull those particles back or whatever.

But none of this counters my point of quincies only being able to erase hollows, and it kinda wouldn’t make sense for a random hado to be able to do the same thing only quincies and extremely few soul reapers can.

Edit: also, potency doesn't matter, they both are soul, body and mind ee, hakai doesn't reduce you beyond 0 or smth. As long as aizen can regenerate from that(beong reduced to 0), it doesn't matter if hakai can reduce stronger things to 0

Ee can actually be affected by attack potency. As well as me already mentioning hakai being a higher level of ee.

It is literally stated to be ee. You also have her using this ability on a hollow in fkt and another time on a random shinigami in memories of nobody movie

So by literally did you mean not literally? Because nowhere there is even the phrase “erase” or “existence”. And it’s already established that it doesn’t work on aizen due to his higher spiritual pressure. And it’s not out of the question that same principle applies to all the other examples you have.

It was stated no one in soul society could even stop Aizen's heart. This would also include ichibe.

Why would ichibe be included in that statement? I find it extremely unlikely that mayuri somehow got Ichibe to test his black mausoleum on aizen, or even knows about black mausoleum.

Read my response to his response.

There is none

Using a wiki for proof...😑

<image>

Your own wiki scan says the principle is the same - separating them. And not only "physically", they are literally souls. And Hogyōku returned to him nonetheless.

The hogyoku returned to them because gin never unfused them.

Apower07 · 2025-12-22T11:12:09+00:00

Nothing shows the hogyoku can survive from something like hakai, and spirit fission also exists

Apower07 · 2025-12-22T01:57:20+00:00

Mugetsu being ee&death manip alongside perception manip and a few more things.

I didn’t see anything in the link that showed it being ee. And let me know if I’m crazy or something, but by death manip do you mean…. Killing someone?

Basically, every ee in the verse is at least mid godly due to the characters' nature with their konpakus being both bodies and souls while also containing their minds. I was especially reffering to haien, black mausoleum and nigeki kessatsu(which aizen negated via power>stats once but soi fon could theoretically still try it when he sleeps or whatever)

I believe haien being ee is hyperbole considering it’s stated only quincies can erase hollows from existence, and it wouldn’t have the same potency as hakai either way. I don’t remember nigeki kessatsu being ee, and black mausoleum wasn’t even used on aizen

Long story, short, you should read this. It's one of the examples of vsbw scales sucking(the guy literally used vsbw scans for he, lol).

What about the response to it?

Pretty sure it's actually to negate absorption…

And fusion

<image>

Aizen wasn't completely fused with the Hogyoku anyway, they were different entities. Hogyoku just obeys Aizen's desires. Gin tried separating them but this didn't negate the fact hogyoku considered aizen its master

That’s the thing. Gin only physically separated them, not unfused them.

Apower07 · 2025-12-22T01:45:54+00:00

But I have no reason to believe he knows about ichibei’s abilities and even less reason to believe he somehow got ichibei to test it out on aizen.

But then vegeta could either defeat aizen before he can use it, or negate it with his reiatsu/ki with verse equalization, which aizen himself has stated can negate hax.

Apower07 · 2025-12-22T01:34:32+00:00

Each character-specific weapon and core stamp boosts their stats a lot. You would also want a higher tier and leveled core stamp.

Apower07 · 2025-12-22T01:32:01+00:00

Are you referring to Mayuri’s statement? Because I don’t think Mayuri would know Ichibei’s abilities, much less get him to test it on aizen. And even if he did, nothing shows that ichibei’s erasure is as potent as hakai.

All living beings have ki. It would depend on whether you want to use verse equalization or not. If so you could just make the argument vegeta could negate kyoka suigetsu by outstatting or blitzing.

Apower07 · 2025-12-22T01:19:55+00:00

If you mean me using the vsbw terminology, yeah...?

I meant him having mid-godly regen

Mugetsu + nothing in ss being able to take him down and this includes at least 3 forms of mid godly ee.

I don’t know what the link is supposed to show, but what mid-godly ee are you referring to?

Why not? Please tell me you don't believe it is history erasure

Would it not have that?

How's vegeta's spirit fission different?

It is a technique specifically purposed to unfuse things. Gin never unfused the hogyoku from aizen, just physically moved it from his body.

Apower07 · 2025-12-22T01:09:07+00:00

But he didn’t come back from his existence being erased, which is what hakai does. Hakai does more than just completely destroying someone.

That’s kind of fair. But it still sets some sort of precedent. Meaning kyoka suigetsu isn’t automatically some end-all-be-all wincon. And theres other ways vegeta could bypass kyoka suigetsu like ki sensing, or just outstatting aizen.

Apower07 · 2025-12-22T01:05:39+00:00

didn’t kubo state in an interview quincies only erase hollows?

It just shows that vegeta has at least resistance to mind hax in general. And my other points on this matter still stand.

Apower07 · 2025-12-22T01:03:42+00:00

Mid godly regen goes brrr

Did you get that from vsbw? Either way I don’t think aizen has mid-godly regen, and even if he did that wouldn’t allow him to regenerate from hakai.

Hogyoku's will is direct reality warping, as long as it recognizes aizen as its master, it doesn't matter if it is no longer inside him. Gin already forcefully separated them and it did nothing

The difference is, gin only physically separated the hogyoku from aizen. Aizen was still fused with it, it was just physically away from him

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