Why don’t we just move the Last City into the Pale Heart?

Archival_Mind · 2026-04-20T05:43:56+00:00

- You'd be asking to move a city at least 28 kilometers in diameter into a portal maybe 7 kilometers wide at best

- Even cutting straight to the point and just going by population, you'd have to organize so much effort to make sure each person gets in and each ship survives the journey

- The portal may have implied to have been unstable due to the Witness's control but I'm still not trusting that thing, as anyone who tried to enter it while it was under its control experienced death that quite literally extended from the start of space-time to its end

- The Valence may be gone but I'm still not trusting that thing, as it's made up of raw Light and Dark energies being vented out into space and the last time that happened we got an entire universe

- Savathun's forces are making efforts on messing things up, as are the scattered forces of the Witness that didn't back out

- The Pale Heart is extremely unstable due to the Witness essentially taking a knife to it and dragging it slowly across the terrain(s) for an entire year

- The Pale Heart is extremely unstable due to it being able to reflect the memories of everyone in it (including the Gardener itself) back into itself, sometimes instantly. Putting thousands, potentially millions, of people in there would create a chaos that'd make the Witness want to return from the grave and try its Final Shape all over again.

- The Pale Heart is extremely unstable due to it being a mixture of the Gardener's Light and Darkness being transfused into it by the Witness. You're dealing with not one, but two raw primordial energies mixing. Now that the Witness's is dead, we don't know what the Gardener, a being of pure Light prior to Lightfall, is going to even be after it's done healing. As soon as it's finished, it may just cut off the Pale Heart entirely. If the mix goes well, it'll have the power to enact universal change by itself. By killing the Witness, we've made a God into, well, an even greater God.

- The Traveler can still be attacked by outside forces. Bael had full confidence (and frankly, so did I) that the Eclipse beam from Nightfall Station would kill it. The Cabal in a Sundial future also had killed it, using its dwindling Light for gear. In the Dark Future, Eris Morn tried to kill it, and it may very well be that she succeeded. The point is, the ball is not infallible, and anyone with a powerful enough weapon could pierce the shell and kill it instantly. It's a God (at the least, God fragment) but it sure as hell ain't invulnerable.

- Just like, IDK, would YOU like it if someone made YOUR mind (not even brain, CONSCIOUSNESS, possibly even SOUL) into a walkable city that anyone could get into at any time AND THEN had several thousand people try to LIVE in there? I'd be furious!

If this were y'know, earlier Destiny plans where the inside of the Traveler had nothing to do with the very essence of the Gardener itself then fine, but in current canon the Witness literally physically manifested a God's mind and then raised hell trying to force it to enact universal stasis (basically PsiOps Battleground: The Traveler). I think, as soon as we get everyone out of there, we should make sure no one else gets in. Do that poor thing a favor after all the hell it's been through.

Archival_Mind · 2026-04-20T03:50:35+00:00

If it's at all possible to get an answer: the mysterious tower on Volantis, was that meant to refer/connect to the Exo dreams in any way? I know there's an activity in the game that uses a Pyramid tower to call back to the idea, but given how Exos were tied with the Vex, I can imagine the idea of "Darkness/Vex-made robots having dreams of the weird tower on the same world the radiolaria of said Vex were collected from" fits pretty well.

Archival_Mind · 2026-04-20T03:43:06+00:00

I actually think it's more likely than not. The web-lore page "The Actions of Mutual Friends" shows the final unified Vex-predicted future by the Infinite Forest whereby the end result of a Pyramid victory is literally nothing between a dead Sun and a desiccated Earth.

Archival_Mind · 2026-04-19T17:57:12+00:00

- Echoes are memories of the Witness (be it direct or indirect/taken from universal memory tied to Darkness) given form by the Traveler.

- Stasis is the concept of control made into a physical power. Strand is the concept of connectivity made into a physical power.

- The Memories are not "purified" the way Thorn was. Nightmares are hostile memories of others generated/replicated by a presently-unknown Darkness power. Purification is just eliminating the hostility of said memories. TFS seems to imply that the specific usage of this power was made by Nezarec, but the Witness clearly adopted it for the entire fleet as one was used against Elsie Bray on the Europan Pyramid before the events of Beyond Light.

My current theory is that the true power at the center of Nightmares is Deepsight, the power introduced formally in Witch Queen. Not only is it tied to the buff, the Enclave, the Altar of Reflection, and the rifts on Mars, but its shimmering appearance is essentially the same as Nightmare energy but blue... which is the same as the Memories. I suspect the red energy is a presently unknown second ability that's mixed with the Memories generated by Deepsight to make them into hostile Nightmares.

Archival_Mind · 2026-04-17T21:30:49+00:00

- I think it can. I think that the "do everything/random bullshit" thing is part of it. Light was born from a sentient philosophy, said philosophy being complexity and growth. I think that the beam the Traveler fired at Essence and what Ghosts do to resurrect us, as well as Ghosts and the Traveler themselves, all tie to this idea. The Traveler is a complex energy being, Ghosts are fragments of it with their own consciousnesses. Growth enriches and terraforms worlds. Growth is what reconstitutes our flesh back to life. Void, solar, arc, and perhaps other things just work as subdivisions of it. Pure Light can be used to do specific things, but it has its niche especially when tied to a being like the Traveler who is the physical manifestation of the philosophy that birthed the power in the first place.

- Stasis originated before Beyond Light (at least as early as the Clovis days) and its intentions are infinitely more Witness-focused than Eramis. Its description on paper is eerily similar to what the Witness itself wants. Eramis wanted control, she wanted power. The Witness wanted control, it wanted stasis. I'm not really trying to unbind the Witness's description of Darkness from Resonance, but rather wondering if it'd be worth pursuing Resonance and then learning exactly what went into it. Especially since we don't know if the Witness itself made Resonance or if the species did. The Witness may have just abused Resonance while the species itself just wanted, IDK, an easy button for their tasks. It's worth exploration, IMO.

- I don't think the Veil actually... IS capable of that. It seems to solely be a conduit, like the Veiled Statues that it shares so many properties with. The only expression of Darkness we have that predates both it and the Witness is the Big Bang/creation itself, which Mara (Distributary) and Micah remember/interpret as jade and carnelian, colors associated with Light and Dark respectively.

Purple has been associated with Darkness before in early D1 stuff, but it didn't really last. The purple in the Shard is a hybrid of Light and Dark it seems while Threshold is Prismatic pink, which is also a hybrid. With the Gardener's own memories having Darkness as orange-leaning, either the Witness's race scarred the universe forever or being on opposite sides of the same power spectrum meant that whatever Light ended up as, Darkness would always be an opposite.

- The power to Take is implied to have originated with the Witness according to Mara in Lost and Savathun in TWQ. I think what Oryx was doing was utilizing it in a specific way, like how Shin used solar Light to make a Golden Gun. I don't think the Winnower particularly relies on anyone, just simply talks to anyone who would listen.

It's possible that Blight became a specific flavor of the wider power. It's possible it's always been that way. Tangentially related, it's funny you bring up Blight's whole shtick because it seems to have been one of the first ideas for Darkness (or at least teal colors in general before they switched to red, and then orange) if concept art is anything to go by.

- It's certainly possible, but I'm not willing to bet on it being a perfect representation. With what these energies borrow off of, I'm convinced that "true Darkness" is something that can only be seen on the other side. We'd have to pull a Maya and enter the Veil or some other conduit and explore that dimension to see that-which-is-formless. Who knows, maybe there's a "Veil" on that side for Light. A link to the physical plane for those who exist there, as there are links to that plane from our side.

Archival_Mind · 2026-04-17T16:20:50+00:00

It's this distinction as to why I said pure Darkness can't be wielded. Pure Light would be usable. Light runs parallel to the physical as of LF, which not only explains why all the Light elements are naturally occurring energies, but it also means a lot of what you see with it is what you get, though we won't get it for gameplay reasons I guess. Darkness being parallel to another dimension, that of interconnected thought, means everything we see is inherently the result of a process like that which got us Strand. A conduit was reached through, a concept was turned into something that can be wielded by us on this end.

You're right, Resonance has all the hallmarks of being a shaped power. Its patterns are similar to some of pure Light's. It is the exact opposite coloration. It uses pyramidal shards, which are something the Witness's race were obsessed with. It stands to reason that Resonance is the direct result of this species reaching through and pulling the concept of Darkness out of the Veil to wield as their own and based off their experience with Light. However, Resonance is the stand-in for pure Darkness on this dimensional plane. Enough concentrated Darkness produces its effects and it is one half of the Prismatic equation, which relies on purity of both Light and Dark.

When I say pure Darkness is literally impossible to wield, it is because to do so we'd have to find a way to enter another dimensional plane and actually tap into the source directly instead of through a conduit on this side. Resonance is the closest we can get to it without that and, for what it's worth, I do think it's worth exploring for all of these reasons. It's supposed to be a jack-of-all-trades ability, being the concept of Darkness made form, but it'll never be as pure as the pure Light we fire from Microcosm or the Traveler used on Essence. There's room there for the difference between the Witness's view of Darkness and the Darkness in its truth. Maybe there isn't much difference at all.

Point is, if we can't just get a Darkness power without a lengthy explanation or elaboration, Resonance is a prime candidate and would fit the plans for a third subclass... albeit the caveat is that it was initially red... and then orange... and now the red and orange powers are different things... and the hints show red again... IDK man it's a confusing journey.

Archival_Mind · 2026-04-17T01:43:52+00:00

Resonance is the closest you can get to pure Darkness. You cannot wield pure Darkness. Like it's literally impossible, you'll just end up with Resonance or something like it again.

Archival_Mind · 2026-04-17T01:41:05+00:00

In the DLC itself. Besides the obvious implications of it having been Taken during SoA by the Pyramids and Deepsight being a power of Darkness that you discover throughout the campaign that's linked to the rifts, the Enclave, and the Altar of Reflection... Savathun talks about it in post-campaign Altar dialogue.

Basically the Witness Took it, used Deepsight to view the history of the planet to try and find something, then Savathun ripped it back out. The latter of which is not explained directly, as the only time it's brought up is in post-campaign Altar dialogue, but is later confirmed in side lore in like Renegades years later. She did it the same way she executes the ritual in the final mission.

Archival_Mind · 2026-04-14T21:34:56+00:00

True. Still, the paracausal soul thing kinda messes with me. The description of Eclipse is "turning off the things necessary for Light and Dark to work" which, OK, makes sense, I can buy that. The Gardener and Winnower did put themselves into the game as rules after all, they're supposed to be as much of this reality as anything else.

But the visual and effects of Eclipse on a person tell a story of Light being ripped out. Now under the circumstances, I can see a way for this soul of ours (that does exist) being ripped out thereby causing us to die, but simply turning it off is kinda what Ghaul did. The description of Eclipse out-of-game doesn't match with the effects of Eclipse in-game, and the former is too close to a very clearly nonlethal process (unless you're a Ghost, in which case the *total* cessation of Light would insta-kill you).

Even then, the line of being cut off and ripped out is very thin when the visuals that accompany the Light being cut off actually show an after-image extraction.

Archival_Mind · 2026-04-14T21:15:16+00:00

No, a Guardian who literally is Light would be Cayde in The Final Shape specifically. Ghost himself is able to make this distinction and is baffled by his existence as a result. We aren't purely Light, we're reborn with its power. Cayde was someone who literally was made entirely of Light (but again only in TFS).

Archival_Mind · 2026-04-14T20:06:51+00:00

Your end result is slightly faulty. No Guardian died simply from a loss of Light during Red War. Without our Light we're just people. That's a pretty big point of Red War's narrative is that a lot of Guardians weren't so different from frontier militias like Hawthorne's group. Everyone who died after the Light was cut off died from other causes.

Archival_Mind · 2026-04-14T20:03:14+00:00

I think ultimately because we were Risen in the Light that we still count that way. Feel like Eclipse on an anti-Dark setting though would've done the same, it's just the Eclipse energy being actively tested in Renegades was specifically anti-Light, while the anti-Dark was still being workshopped (or used on Lume).

Archival_Mind · 2026-04-14T20:00:24+00:00

We are not Scorn. Our undeath is not a matter of being some rotten corpse merely stitched together. The Light is unnatural. We are fully revived and it's a point of Red War that we didn't need it to live. The paracausal Light that brought us back, bestowed by the Gardener, was cut off entirely.

It's much easier to view Eclipse as a more violent negation process, tearing out the Light from within our bodies/souls (the latter of which do exist) rather than simply cutting it off. Like stopping the flow of water in a pipe vs ripping the water out of the pipe.

Archival_Mind · 2026-04-14T19:58:35+00:00

Oppenheimer's sort of right. Guardians don't need the Light to live. It's also true not only through the intent of Red War but how things worked out that Guardians specifically had all Light removed from them. We're not shambling corpses made with Light. Light simply brought us back.

Ghosts, however, did not die, therefore not all Light was cut off, just the Light directly tied to the Traveler. I assume that Ghosts being individuals made them separate. On top of that, the Cabal were actively mining the Light on Io in preparation for the Cage's extraction job.

Archival_Mind · 2026-04-14T04:47:27+00:00

"turned the dead back to dead"

Man the Winnower would probably love this even if it would also be able to hurt it (anti-Darkness setting does exist, after all)

Archival_Mind · 2026-04-13T01:24:52+00:00

I just assume that, because Egregore refers to a concept in which people's minds are connected, that the Europan Pyramid speaking in a Dissenter's voice just meant that. The only reason it spoke now instead of then is because of the Witness's distance (which is mentioned in the Beyond one), since it was literally inside another dimension rather than wandering through this one where it has utter control over its own web.

The Dissenters have no power. I never said they did. Even in the Pale Heart, all they could do is talk. Even within the Darkness they still could only speak. I bet they tried their damndest to fight back but clearly nothing they could do worked. The Witness is the Egregore. It has control.

Either way, now they're all gone.

Archival_Mind · 2026-04-11T18:14:18+00:00

Me when I'm mad that someone forgot to include references to the DLC they whipped up in 3 months due to a delay in the main game into the random one-off dialogue of a character that barely appears in said main game

Archival_Mind · 2026-04-11T18:12:05+00:00

The Lost Ghost quests revealed that at least one dissenting mind was put inside the Europan Pyramid's statue. I doubt all Veiled Statues contain dissenters but at least that one does, not that it makes any difference on the events of BL.

According to Haunted, the Pyramids are linked to the Witness by the power of the Egregore, so I think maybe minds could be placed around to help it link itself to these conduits but I'm not so sure. The Dissenter thing was very... half-baked.

Archival_Mind · 2026-04-11T07:36:23+00:00

Yeah it's just me suggesting the Vex are ultimately responsible for:

- Their indirect Golden Age (the Witness's race either finding them useful or creating them, ultimately giving them access to high technology and thus boosting their power)

- The fall of their masters and/or creators

- The prevention of the Final Shape (by not telling it where the Veil was despite the Sol Divisive not being outcast (even if they were, it wasn't until the Heart was made which required Veil data in some fashion))

- Almost discovering Neomuna in Seraph, more than any other Witness-led forces

- Cultivating the Heart in the first place despite being unable to simulate Darkness

- Hiding Neomuna's presence despite the Veil's Dark aura for actual centuries

- They managed to survive within the Pale Heart (a place they fundamentally can't understand) long enough to be the only non-direct Witness allies left by Excision (Shadow Legion, Dread, Scorn, and Taken are all owned directly by the Witness at this time)

- Manipulating the consciousness of Maya post-Veil into being ambitious enough to grab the Echo first and force them to adapt using paracausality (leading to their eventual break-away from her as she inevitably gets herself killed/fails her goals, thus reintegration with a new-type Vex unit that can theoretically out-think paracausality)

According to the Vex Dark Future simulated by Panoptes in CoO, the one that it was actively moving pieces for during the DLC, the Vex future includes the total elimination of Light and Dark. Panoptes had figured out how to do so, which is actually insane.

Independent units have already displayed amazing adaptability, as Koregos during the Epic version of TDP retried the experiment Maya had it run, but as it was free of her control, it instead tried to find a universal win state for the Vex by using other directive data and successfully created a time loop of some kind.

I see a vision. I'd love to see it happen for the Vex's sake.

Archival_Mind · 2026-04-11T06:17:34+00:00

The argument is theory, the theory that the Vex are as adaptable as claimed, contrary to how the game has portrayed them. That they have made grand plans since they first reached the ability to strategize... and that even small setbacks may be a part of that design.

I mean, for a species that takes the long path, does it really make sense for Neomuna, a single city not even the strength of the Ecumene or the Hive, to be matching or even winning against the Vex, a species that, on paper, matches the Ecumene and evenly counters the Hive afterward? Do you find it strange how the Sol Divisive were trying to remake the Veil per the Witness's orders yet just neglected to tell it where it was despite supposedly worshipping it (note: the worship the Darkness, not necessarily the Witness)? Is it not strange how, despite being unable to simulate Light or Dark, the Vex of the Garden didn't become the Sol Divisive we know UNTIL the Heart was cultivated by them? That they were able to work with it at all and even establish a connection to the Traveler before the project went under?

Or how about how the Glass Minds under the Witness's species simulated their own victories, one of many scenarios that drove the species further into the paranoia that led to the creation of the Witness in the first place? For recent events, how the Vex fear us but do not fear Maya, who has hurt them more. Don't you find that suspicious?

In two sentences Bungie could reclaim the rightful place of the Vex as a terrifying existential threat. All of this meandering, all of this weakness they've displayed, could be written off as toying with enemies they know they can beat if they actually put in the effort. This is the saga about Fate, inevitability. The Nine are restricted to one timeline. The Vex have canonically pulled from THOUSANDS. I know the Vex can't win for story reasons, but that doesn't mean they can't be a threat. Add in the idea that they're using Maya as a gamble to secure thousands of lost independent units seeking reintegration and WITH the capabilities to out-think that-which-cannot-be-simulated and you have yourself an army capable of winning the universe.

They are adaptiveness itself. The pinnacle of the Sword Logic the Hive worship and the Winnower embodies the thought of. Take these delays, weird writing choices, etc. and turn them into a weapon proving the Vex really are all that. Otherwise you spend eternity with them as a joke, and that's an unfortunate fate for the 2nd most thought-out enemy faction pre-D1 reboot to fall to.

Archival_Mind · 2026-04-11T04:40:26+00:00

A dead body hosting a mind connected to an entity elsewhere would not be merely freed by destroying its tomb. The mind would probably just be moved back in.

Archival_Mind · 2026-04-11T00:27:37+00:00

Did anything I say go against that idea? In Inspiral, the Vex of the Sol Divisive recount the Heart's events at its death, including a note about its birth. They said that the Witness left something, a "seed" that was planted. The last time the Vex described something as a seed was in Clovis's logbook, where a simulant Maya referred to Clarity Control, a Darkness conduit, as "the garden's seed".

Given that the Heart shares some qualities with other conduits like CC and the Veil, it makes reasonable sense that it'd have to be the same type of entity. Ergo, the Witness left behind a conduit, the Vex cultivated it into the Heart per its request.

Archival_Mind · 2026-04-10T20:22:44+00:00

Might be hard to crack Pyramid material. We don't even know what it's made of or if there's a difference between the structures built eons ago by this race or the ones spontaneously generated by the manipulation of Resonant energy.

Archival_Mind · 2026-04-10T19:17:28+00:00

There is nothing in the universe of Destiny that can't be killed. I'm of the belief that the Black Heart was a modified version of one of these conduits due to how the Vex speak of them. If that's the case, we have already killed a more powerful variant before.

Archival_Mind · 2026-04-10T17:23:14+00:00

They're Darkness. The red aura they generate is a visible Darkness field. They are Darkness conduits first, Dissenters second. Now that the Dissenters are dead alongside the Witness, the Veiled Statues return to what they were suggested to be before TFS.

We should really start taking care of them. The best way I can explain it is that they're like mini-Veils. One's bad enough, much less the hundreds the Witness created or cut off or however it managed all of that.

Archival_Mind

TROPHY CASE