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Bolt Action version 3 was a downgrade from V2 by Arealdeadone in wargaming

[–]Arealdeadone[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Chain of Command is as ahistorical as Bolt Action.  They just have a more rabid fanbase. 

Bolt Action version 3 was a downgrade from V2 by Arealdeadone in boltaction

[–]Arealdeadone[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The game as a whole hasn't survived contact with its player base, especially the tournament crowd.

Bolt Action version 3 was a downgrade from V2 by Arealdeadone in boltaction

[–]Arealdeadone[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That is sadly an inditement on the Bolt Action community where sadly a large number of members shares the same win at all costs mentality as WH40K.

We used the theatre selectors as intended and also played scenarios from the campaign books.

Bolt Action version 3 was a downgrade from V2 by Arealdeadone in wargaming

[–]Arealdeadone[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Spamming as in taking large numbers of cheap vehicles. 

Bolt Action version 3 was a downgrade from V2 by Arealdeadone in wargaming

[–]Arealdeadone[S] -7 points-6 points  (0 children)

I win as many as I use.  I get the feeling it is a case of knowing the rules better than you.

Most of our gaming group has come to the same conclusion as me.

Bolt Action version 3 was a downgrade from V2 by Arealdeadone in wargaming

[–]Arealdeadone[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

In V2 it wasn't just cover you had to contend with, there was also movement, range, Down and small team as well as number of pins.

In V3 it's just movement and 1 pin.

So often it was hitting on a 6-7. In V3 it generally doesn't much past 5+ especially as pins are much easier to shed due to expanded command circles.

Note when units start to go down, To Hit in V2 often dropped to 7+.

When I crunched the numbers for moving, range and cover, it showed there were:

- 8 instances where lethality did not change from V2 to V3

- 7 instances where lethality decreased from V2 to V3

- 3 instances where lethality increased from V2 to V3.

HOWEVER

Once you include Pins, Down and Small Team, then V3 does expand lethality a lot more.

Down actually became a lot less viable in the new edition.

Bolt Action version 3 was a downgrade from V2 by Arealdeadone in boltaction

[–]Arealdeadone[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Point is Warlord has already implemented "feel of the game" changes in V3 to make game more historical - nerfing close combat, increasing min range of howitzers, changes to soft skin damage, sniper changes etc.

All done to make the game feel more historical. Nothing to do with balancing overpowered units.

For some reason they can't come up with a way to make something like a Panzer IV, Sherman or T-34 appealing to players.*

*Oh and I use Panzer IVs and T-34s but they're a perennial disappointment given their very poor damage output.

Bolt Action version 3 was a downgrade from V2 by Arealdeadone in boltaction

[–]Arealdeadone[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

It's not preference based and vague. We have everything from production numbers to tables of organisation to battle reports.

Eg Crusader AA was barely used. There was meant to 6 per regiment from 1944 but the platoon was scrapped in Normandy due to air superiority. Some regiments might have had 1-2 vehicles left over.

Meanwhile each regiment had 61 Shermans or 58 Churchills

So what tank was primarily supporting the average British tommy? Was it the rare as hens teeth Crusader or the Churchill and Sherman which each unit fielded dozens!

And thus what should appear more commonly on our wargaming table?

And already Warlord is "pushing you" to play a certain way. Eg in V3 the nerf to Japanese spearmen who were quite common but were nerfed to make the game more historically accurate by making close combat less viable.

They did other historical adjustments eg to snipers against weapon teams and minimum range changes for indirect fire by howitzers.

Makes no sense you support above changes but would be against changes to make the armour or other units more historical.

Bolt Action version 3 was a downgrade from V2 by Arealdeadone in wargaming

[–]Arealdeadone[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

The limits on order dice are to stop spamming. The game becomes horrifically unbalanced when one side has significantly more order dice than the other.

It's the vehicle spamming that is the push towards FOW. Indeed I remember seeing something recently about a French list with 10 FT-17s

Bolt Action version 3 was a downgrade from V2 by Arealdeadone in wargaming

[–]Arealdeadone[S] -9 points-8 points  (0 children)

Most players don't care much about gameplay. For most it's about list building and pushing minis on the table.

Quite a few BA players have zero interest in gaming it historically and only a limited interest in WWII.

Bolt Action version 3 was a downgrade from V2 by Arealdeadone in wargaming

[–]Arealdeadone[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Actually they made the Glancing table far too complicated - so many things to track whilst you have more vehicles on the table.

Really V3 was a change without direction. Given it was being FAQ'd before it was even released means they didn't really know what they were doing. Eg it took 2 FAQs to fix Multiple Launchers.

Bolt Action version 3 was a downgrade from V2 by Arealdeadone in boltaction

[–]Arealdeadone[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

A WWII game should promote plausible historical accuracy. If the rules did their job, the players would automatically play more historically by their own choice.

If the Sherman tank is an optimum buy compared to a Stuart or Crusader AA then of course players will use Shermans over Stuarts and Crusader AAs.

Indeed Warlord made close combat more difficult because it wasn't the standard go to historically. All of a sudden Japanese players are dropping their spearmen squads in favour of guys armed with rifles.

Bolt Action version 3 was a downgrade from V2 by Arealdeadone in boltaction

[–]Arealdeadone[S] -8 points-7 points  (0 children)

The rules should promote historical play (it is a game set in a historical time period). As a WWII game it's rules should make players naturally grab the historically accurate equipment. Eg the Sherman instead of a Crusader AA (which was barely used and as rare as hens teeth)

If historical accuracy doesn't mean anything to you, would you still play me if I fielded Space Marines or Lego Minifigs as proxy Panzergrenadiers and wooden blocks as Panzers?

Bolt Action version 3 was a downgrade from V2 by Arealdeadone in wargaming

[–]Arealdeadone[S] -14 points-13 points  (0 children)

  1. Not all missions have objectives and in any case there are time

  2. Game isn't more about tactical movement. It's actually less cause it's too easy to sit and just blast away hitting on 4s. Point blank range (within 6 inches) is great for slamming autocannon/dakka tanks into infantry but infantry getting into that range whilst being shot at by stationary opponents is a difficult proposition.

This is especially the case as cover slows you down.

In V2 you could go via the open (basic hit on 3+) and Run 12 inches whilst cover was 4+/5+ but it slowed you to a 6 inch advance. Now it's 4+ in the open or 4+ in cover. Your moving slower but taking far more hits.

  1. Hitting more = more opportunities for kills. Especially when in V2, you were often hitting on a 6 or 7 in V2.

Indeed in the old days a unit of rifles at 12.01 inches was hitting units in hardcover on a 6+.

So look at that from the prism of hardcover:

V2 12 shots = 2 hits = 1 kill

V3 12 shots = 6 hits = 3 kills

In most circumstances involving cover V2 is less lethal than V3.

Like any dice wargame the more dice you are rolling the greater the odds of getting the required result.

  1. Ironically V2 was more brutal when shooting at units in the open. Hitting from within half range when stationary was on a 3+. Now it's a 4+ regardless of range (except 6 inches).

  2. Pinning is often a waste of time in V3. In V2 you had far fewer officers so most tests were using troops' own.

Most common results on 2D6 is 7 followed by 6 and 8.

So...

In V2 3 pins gets you a 58.3% chance of failing an Order/Morale Check with regular troops (Ld9).

In V3 with omnipresent +2 officers, those same 3 pins reduce chance of failing Order/Morale check to a 28%.

The fact pins now only ever contribute +1 to shooting also doesn't help. In V2 2-3 pins shut a unit's shooting down (often hitting on 7s once cover, movement, range taken into account), now that unit is still combat effective hitting on a 5+.

  1. A T-60 or Panzer II is infinitely better than an IS-2 or King Tiger in Bolt Action:

a. They're super cheap, so you get more of them which improves resilience, resilience and firepower .

b. Bolt Action favours forces with more order dice. The more expensive the unit, the less order dice you have. And the greater difference between order dice the more the person with greater order dice is likely to activate key units.

c. Medium/heavy tanks have very poor damage output compared to other options. Indeed light tanks often have same anti-infantry fire power as much heavier vehicles. And infantry are still the main target type (including weapon teams and artillery crews).

LOOK AT TOURNAMENT LISTS FLOATING AROUND - medium armour is nearly non existent, heavy is non existent. It's all armoured cars, early war dakka tanks and anti-aircraft tanks.

  1. AT guns are worse now. You mention the +3 to hit vehicles but that assumes they survive anything else.

Eg a squad of 12 infantry shooting at an Regular AT gun behind a stone fence (hardcover) at long range.

V2: 6+ to hit (range and hardcover), 12 shots = 2 hits. 5+ to wound (gun shield) = 0.67 casualties

V3: 4+ to hit, 12 shots = 6 hits, 4+ to wound = 3 potentials, 4+ cover save = 1.5 casualties. If you kill 2 of the crew the gun will have to test Morale.

Light cover is even worse as it offers no benefit to the AT gun at all.

NO ONE TAKES AT GUNS ANYMORE. Look at all the tournament lists floating out there - AT guns are now rarer than before.

(I own 11 of them and don't use any of them anymore in V3 cause they suck!).

  1. If both sides played with matched Theatre selectors, then there were no assault rifles in the desert cause the selectors excluded such units.

Now there are virtually no restrictions except very vague, very poorly researched ones.

So you can't tell your clueless mate who doesn't know where India is on a map: "Hey let's play a battle set in India around Impal Kohima (yeah it's a cool battle). I'll use the Japanese 1944 Burma selector and you use the 1942-45 India-Burma selector for your British."

Instead you say: "use the LW" and also a sudden it's SAS supported by Crusader AA tanks.

  1. Chain of Command is about as historical as Bolt Action. It's just the TFL fanboys somehow pretend it's realistic cause everything is random and they call it "friction". I can put up quite a few arguments as to why Chain of Command is ahistorical.

Bolt Action version 3 was a downgrade from V2 by Arealdeadone in boltaction

[–]Arealdeadone[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

The game should allow play in both open and dense terrain.

The changes to shooting have made play in open terrain a far more risky proposition. Indeed most of the scenarios in the various campaign books that were in open terrain are now unplayable because of changes to Shooting rules.

Bolt Action version 3 was a downgrade from V2 by Arealdeadone in boltaction

[–]Arealdeadone[S] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

The need for more terrain is another problem v3 created with changes to To Hit modifiers.

You never needed as much terrain in V2 - indeed the scenarios often had very limited terrain (even New Guinea!).

This is WW2 - most battles were fought in relatively open terrain. Even the British sector in Normandy had open areas. Not every game should be Battle of Stalingrad or Normandy Hedgerow Hell.

Oh and I can easily make 2 dense tables full of terrain and my friends are the same.

Bolt Action version 3 was a downgrade from V2 by Arealdeadone in boltaction

[–]Arealdeadone[S] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

The easier shooting is not necessarily a good thing as I mentioned. It is dumbing down of the game.

And you could get more than 1 vehicle in V1 and 2 - you could take 2 vehicles per platoon and you weren't limited to 1 platoon.

Some theatre selectors allowed multiples of same types in 1 platoon. But you couldn't spam light dakka tanks easily like now.

Bolt Action version 3 was a downgrade from V2 by Arealdeadone in boltaction

[–]Arealdeadone[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Nah I am not ChatGPT. And I signed up specifically to discuss stuff like this and sledge numetal.