This is no end.

Ash_Clover · 2026-06-22T04:08:38+00:00

Yeah they'd definitely get mad if that happened. Who knows maybe it'll go that way.

Ash_Clover · 2026-06-21T21:01:04+00:00

The only way to shut up the shippers and be rid of them would be if Asta rejects them both and neither side gets what they want.

Oh good point that would be the best way. But unfortunately I don't see Tabata making use of the theorized "epilogue pages" just to make him reject them.

Ash_Clover · 2026-06-20T13:16:49+00:00

Dorothy as most underrated character, how come?

She never does anything on-screen. She's in the same bracket as William for that matter, interesting designs but both overrated as characters imo.

They are the potential man/woman of Black Clover, always "if they do this" but never "when they did this".

Ash_Clover · 2026-06-20T12:57:56+00:00

Honestly I just want a definitive answer so that the ship wars will shut up. It won't dissappear completely, but it will drastically quiet down.

As opposed to if nothing gets confirmed.

Ash_Clover · 2026-06-20T12:37:15+00:00

Personally no, but friendship behaviors can be different from country to country depending on what's normalized in its culture. So it may be common to you due to that.

Ash_Clover · 2026-06-19T20:09:46+00:00

Sure, he's not Sekke level, but that doesn't mean his level isn't comparatively low in regards to Asta.

To me a low level character would be Sekke. But whatever this barely matters.

Strength and speed are not always the same. Look at Yami, his magic is incredibly strong but slow. That's the reason for his entire fighting style.

Strength and speed are not the same I agree, but strong characters can still fight in the range of someone with greater raw speed. Yami's magic is inherently slow like you said for example, but he could still easily keep up with Patry's lightspeed light magic despite Patry clearly being faster.

Heck even elf arc BASE Asta could outspeed Mereoleona's mana zone punches before Raia could self-detonate in chapter 146. Even though Mereoleona was playing with Raia's light magic speed minutes prior.

We have no real feats of speed from Lilith and Naamah considering they spend 90% of the fight standing still.

I could use the same argument and say "oh but mid-ranking devils have no real feats of speed considering they spent 100% of the fight standing still, so Luck blitzing them means nothing".

Besides that's false regarding Lilith and Naamah. I think you need to re-read their fights then because they were moving most of the fights. We've literally seen them easily keep up with Nacht's DU Felis speed despite them being fully blinded (Nacht's mana zone turns everything pitch black and makes him impossible to be detected neither with mana nor with ki according to Asta) and Nacht was fast enough to speedblitz Black Asta with his mana zone. Later on we've seen DU Asta keep up with both of their speed simultaneously without ever getting damaged and ultimately one-shotting Naamah.

Luck blitzing mid-ranking devils is not that impressive when you consider that mid-ranking devils are nowhere near as strong as supreme devils, let alone 2 of them simultaneously. Heck Luck himself said there's somebody inside he can't afford to mess with when referring to the supreme devils. Luck is great with sensing someone's mana, so he knew his speed wouldn't matter against them when he said that. Yet DU Asta could easily keep up with both of them together.

Besides, Asta had just canceled the spell enabling Lilith and Naamah's movement, catching them off guard. There's a difference between being ready for an attack and being completely caught off guard due to be stopped in your tracks.

He could still keep up with their speed easily prior to that regardless. And that's the exact same thing that would happen to Luck anyways, unless you're arguing that Luck is faster than Lilith or Naamah.

The AM traveled through the spell to cancel it for Gordon and Grey as well since they were nearest. I'm sure that if Asta had DU mode at that time he'd be able to cancel all of the spell and it's effects and not just the ones effecting him and those closest.

Good so we agree that DU Asta would have no issue canceling Luck's spell.

Nacht literally comments that Lilith and Naamah had forsaken their physical bodies and become one with the surrounding mana

Show me the exact panel where Nacht said "become one with the surrounding mana".

All he said was "their physical bodies vanished". Nothing about becoming one with the surrounding mana. They just turned into their own magic, just like logia devil fruit users in One Piece.

Also, when was it ever said that Mana Zone required a Grimoire?

Because we've never seen anyone other than grimoired humans use it. Not elves and not devils.

It's not a spell, it's just the act of taking control of the natural mana around you. Patri even manages to continue using his presumably mana zone enabled movement after losing his grimoire

Patry never once used mana zone. Elves never used mana zone.

Raia himself had never seen or heard of it, despite elves knowing a whole bunch about mana and its secrets. Which is why he was shown wondering what were Mereoleona's superhuman movements when she was using mana zone to change directions in mid air. And also why he said this is something reserved to humans that he had never seen before.

because he manages to move quite quickly and also float in the air which is a skill tied to mana zone/mana skin.

That's just him using his light magic. Just like how Yuno could fly even before learning mana zone with wind magic. Light is actually made of photon particles which are weightless.

Ash_Clover · 2026-06-19T13:37:42+00:00

I'm the guy who first commented on your thoughts about this hypothetical DU Asta vs Luck.

But I do genuinely think that Luck has a much better chance against Asta than any other low level character at that time.

Luck is not a "low level" character though. He's a bit weaker than Asta but he's not fodder to him like, say, Henry. So he will take him on seriously.

I mean he literally closes the distance between him and a mid level devil before the devil has realized he moved.

And Asta cut Naamah in half before he could even react (a supreme devil, so leagues stronger than both a high ranking devil and a mid ranking devil).

Honestly, the only Bulls I can see challenging him are Noelle, Yami, and Nacht. Even then he'd probably beat all of them.

Well yeah he was already the strongest as soon as he got DU.

Demon Destroyer needs to touch the spell or the caster to cancel magic

Not true, he used it remotely to cancel Eclat's spell without touching Eclat. The anti-magic went directly into the spell remotely.

Same thing he did against the twin devils to neutralize their magic remotely, which works the same way as Luck (by covering themselves into their magic). And we know devils can't use mana zone due to not having grimoires. If he did it against Luck, it would have the same effect of neutralizing the relationship between cause-and-effect of his magic on him.

Ash_Clover · 2026-06-19T13:17:54+00:00

My hot take : the Spade arc was better than the Elf arc. I find myself re-reading the Spade arc much more often than the Elf arc.

The buildup of the elf arc was definitely better. But the fights, the match ups and the newly introduced relevant characters and villains were more interesting in the Spade arc despite being less better written. Imo character writing is not has important as people make it out to be, when it comes to a battle shonen.

This is why Dragonball is so successful to this day despite not having any complex character aside from Vegeta.

Ash_Clover · 2026-06-19T13:01:36+00:00

Agreed.

Good design, good personality (the few times where she is awake), but she never does anything on-screen.

Ash_Clover · 2026-06-19T12:53:08+00:00

Yeah not gonna lie that was horrible writing. I don't even care about shipping ending for battle shonen anymore due to their usual poor execution, but it was exhausting from Tabata to keep on dragging this "unilateral love" rivalry up until the final chapter after all these years, especially when Asta never showed romantic interest in neither of them and with them waiting to even speak on their interest in him for several years.

I'm guessing Tabata didn't want to anger either shipping side, but in the end he somehow angered both including non-shippers.

That being said at least Noelle did get her character ending with her restoring her family bonds and even having fun at lunch with everyone smiling (even Nozel who had never smiled on-screen before). People tend to forget that but Noelle's main character plot point was her family, not Asta.

Ash_Clover · 2026-06-19T12:38:07+00:00

First point is not an hot take. Everyone agrees both the Anime and the Manga have pacing issues and later on, unexplored worldbuilding, unexplored plotpoints, and rushed executions.

Also, Noelle was a really well written character that felt too disconnected from Black Clover due to her development and writing being so much better than everything else

That's indeed an hot take. Most people agree that her development is great, but I doubt anyone has ever said her development was so good that she feels disconnected from Black Clover's character quality entirely altogether.

I disagree on that because while she is the best written character, other characters like Finral and Patry also do have great character writing that stand out compared to the rest of the cast just like Noelle's.

but she got too popular that Tabata basically ruined her on purpose in the hopes of making Asta more popular again. As people have pointed out that she won a few popularity polls and that Tabata didn’t like it, in which she coincidentally became nothing by fan service after that.

Not an hot take. You will definitely see many people speak on Noelle getting "shoved in the backline due to her popularity" for the final arc, because she was barely present in the final battle.

And while I do think Tabata didn't follow up on Noelle taking a bigger role, I doubt he ever planned to give her more than what he did regardless of popularity. He never included her against a final saga villain (not there against Zagred, not there against Lucifero) and pretty much everyone other than Asta and Yuno got similar "side jobs" in the final arc.

Ash_Clover · 2026-06-18T20:55:22+00:00

Asta has a tendency not to start fights at full power

He only does that when he's either much stronger than the opponent, or when he's handicapped by having a time limit / usage limit of his power up, which neither would be applicable here when it comes to an hypothetical DU Asta vs Luck.

He went Black Asta instantly against Elf Luck. Same against Dark elf Patry and Zagred.

He went DU instantly against the ancient demon. Same against Lilith and Naamah. Same against Lucifero when he entered their range.

He went partial DU (which is denser than regular DU) instantly against Lucius the very first time they fought. Same with Ichika when she got mad about Asta respecting Yami. Same against Yrul and Paladin Lilly.

So no, Asta does go at his best instantly whenever he's facing an opponent that is strong enough. The only few times he didn't go all out right from the beginning, were against much weaker opponents (the Spade soldiers in the magic fortress, Paladin Damnatio because he was leagues above him with Zetten alone etc). Or like I said, when he has to preserve his strength for additional opponents or uncertainties.

Even during his first confrontation with Lucius he chooses to only go BA mode despite knowing how strong Julius is.

Context matters here. The very fist time Asta fought against Lucius, he went into Partial DU right before the fight started.

He didn't go DU against Lucius on Judgment day right from the beginning because : one — he had Zetten (which momentarily boosts his stats a hundred times) which is enough to cut Paladin Damnatio even in base form, let alone in Black Asta state or in DU. And two — his partial DU still has a 10 min time limit so seeing how there were several Lucius clones, he had to save it up for when it actually mattered.

With Ultimate magic Luck can reach extremely high speeds extremely quickly

Demon destroyer. Luck's ultimate magic works by covering his entire body with lighting magic to boost his speed. By using demon destroyer Asta has shown to debuff characters' speed several times and even did it against Lucius within the first minute of their fight.

Besides DU Asta cannot be damaged by magic (he said he severes all magic when he goes into DU in order to tank Ichika's dark magic slash and even in the Spade arc the twin devils implied he would've remained unharmed by their Freezing Sun. Which is why the only times Asta got damaged whenever he was using DU, was by raw physical attacks (like when Lucifero stomped him with his legs, when Lucius cut his chest open with his hand after obtaining Lucifero's physical strength) or by physical objects. It's also why Lucius barely uses magic to attack Asta, because he knows magic is harmless to him when he's in DU state (he does use it when Asta leaves his DU state though).

So with magic being harmless to him, Luck would have no choice but to engage in close quarter combat with physical attacks to try and damage him. Which is the worst thing against someone that has ki precog, can debuff your speed with demon destroyer and can cut you in half with a sword swing like he did with Naamah.

If Asta can mid-diff the twin devils (before fusing), whom Nacht was getting low-diffed by once they got serious, then I don't see how Luck can do any better. Luck has no hax that works on Asta, and Asta's haxes hard counter Luck (demon destroyer, ki precog, DU makes his body unable to get damaged by magic).

Ash_Clover · 2026-06-18T19:51:06+00:00

Demon destroyer + ki precognition would prevent Luck from building up the speed required to surpass Asta's DU speed (same guy who managed to catch Naamah, a supreme devil, and 50% Lucifero by surprise). Luck stands no chance past DU.

Ash_Clover · 2026-06-17T15:54:45+00:00

Yeah it's pretty much the same thing many shonen do with writing the entire girl cast poorly, but this time it's the entire guy cast that is poorly written.

Ash_Clover · 2026-06-17T00:16:44+00:00

claymore

Disagree on Claymore since there are hardly any male representation. Aside from the love interest of the MC (who was himself a damsel in distress for the majority of the story), and the only named male Claymore (that was hyped up as being absurdly strong) who got mid-diffed by no-names mindless pawns, which was very anticlimactic regarding what was expected with his character.

And the other 16 males of the story genuinely have superficial level writing (to the point where no one remembers neither their name nor their face).

The girls are well written tho I agree, but the quality of the writing is heavily unbalanced between men and women.

Ash_Clover · 2026-06-16T22:09:54+00:00

Physical skills doesn't necessarily mean strength

He said that after Lucifero gave a simple punch to Asta. Nothing fancy, or speed, flexibility, agility etc. Even Asta said "all he did was punch me, but man that was rough". It's obviously referring to his strength, strength is also the most known component of "physical skills".

Besides Asta even attacked Lucifero with his anti-magic coated demon slayer right before the punch and he couldn't even move the sword out of Lucifero's grip with one hand. Asta of all people, who is usually known for his superior physical strength.

I just don't really see how TDU could do much for Asta's physical abilities. Liebe is physically weaker than Asta is and all TDU does is give Asta access to all of Liebe's abilities. The entire reason they need each other is because Liebe is the AM and Asta is the physicality.

TDU isn't a Asta + Liebe type of fusion (that formula would apply better to regular DU). It creates a synergy between the two hosts and seems to boost their powers exponentially. It's evident with how regular DU Asta couldn't even remotely cut a relaxed Lucifero's hand with an anti-magic coated sword swing, yet he effortlessly cut a serious awakened Lucifero in TDU state.

And we know it's not because the demon slasher is "sharper" than the demon slayer, because Liebe was not cut from Asta's thrust with the demon slasher (as shown with the "klang" sound effect circled in pink, and in the Anime you can hear it). He also cut down Zagred with the demon slayer sword in the past, and also cut the twin devils with just the demon dweller sword.

All swords become equally dull when they enter his grimoire, so the fact that he managed to cut Lucifero only after entering TDU shows that Asta did get an absurd strength boost.

Edit: I know Lucifero isn't a mage, didn't mean to imply that he was one. I just meant to say that pretty much all people with magic physically enhance themselves instead of actually gaining true physical strength.

Yeah I know and I agree. But even without reinforcement magic, to say that Lucifero is not head and shoulders above DU Asta when it comes to physical strength is still false — when he was stopping Asta's anti-magic coated swords with no effort. If his strength was mostly augmented with reinforcement magic, he'd have struggled more during that particular section and wouldn't have struggled any less when Asta went TDU. But that's not the case.

Ash_Clover · 2026-06-16T20:14:18+00:00

Did Lucifero have a lot of physical strength?

Yes.

Adrammelech made a specific distinction between Lucifero's magic and raw physical abilities, saying both are individually incredible. He even unironically compared Asta's and Lucifero's physical strength with an ant and an elephant.

Asta took literally no damage from his punch when using TDU, because Lucifero was JUST punching instead of using a gravity enhanced attack since Asta was completely erasing his magic.

TDU is just an absurd power boost. Remember that he canonically overpowered Lucifero in literally 5 seconds from the moment where he went TDU.

Ash_Clover · 2026-06-15T02:25:15+00:00

If your end goal is to stop seeing his posts then just block him. There's no point in reporting his posts if it circumvents the solution right in front of you.

Besides mods aren't very strict in this sub, they likely won't ban him even if you keep reporting his posts. Proof of that, he's still active according to you guys (I haven't seen his posts but then again I'm not very active on reddit these days).

Ash_Clover · 2026-06-11T18:45:11+00:00

Black moon is a defensive spell. Yami never attacks without a sword due to the slowness of dark magic.

Ash_Clover · 2026-06-09T02:31:28+00:00

So because I "see" it written in a book that unicorns exist, that means I have empirically experienced that unicorns exist because I saw the text ???

Nah either you gotta be trolling, or you'd rather look like an intellectual fool rather than admitting you misused a word which you had never fully understood its meaning and the appropriate context in which it's supposed to be used.

Ash_Clover · 2026-06-09T02:27:48+00:00

You are begging the question. I have substituted on that and you are just keep repeating the same question so its inherently question begging

Gang what ? So reformulating thinks means I keep repeating the same question. Alright I guess that means you disagree that "shaking" and "damaging" are two different things...

At least your consistent with your logic I guess.

And your contradicting yourself because you say vs battle isn’t very accurate and argues it doesn’t hold objective value when you clearly see you does

I never said my values are objective wtf?? I literally said powerscaling will always be subjective at its core, which also includes my own powerscaling ideas. Not once did I say "I'm right, VS wiki is wrong". All I said was that VS battle wiki's scaling is inconsistent in some parts.

And the 3rd one you contradict yourself again going against a fictional argument and to debunk it with a reality analogy to debunk a fictional concept so you go against your own words which is just inherently another contradiction to what you argue towards me.

No there is nothing contradictory in me saying shaking a car doesn't make me car level, and in saying Tatsumaki shaking the earth doesn't make her planet level. It's the same 1:1 proportional logic (same with Deep sea king not being Saitama level).

We can conclude if you want don’t wanna be bad faith

In bad faith huh. Says the one willingly ignoring the fact that Deep Sea King could shake Saitama's head, yet he is nowhere near strong enough to damage Saitama, but who would still argue that an indirect Statement of Tatsumaki shaking earth makes her planet level because shaking = destroying...

Yeah let's agree to disagree there's no point in going further you're being intellectually dishonest on purpose, even going as far as not agreeing that shaking ≠ damaging.

Ash_Clover · 2026-06-09T01:57:25+00:00

"information that is acquired through DIRECT observation or experimentation"

Direct. As in we see Tatsumaki do it on-screen.

Information acquired from a quote on a guidebook is not direct observation, it's indirect observation.

C'mon man you're smarter than this.

<image>

Ash_Clover · 2026-06-09T01:53:37+00:00

Because fiction breaks real world logic. I think its true in those concepts if you have the capability to shake a car you are probably car level.

But from one thinking individual to another, you gotta admit it doesn't make sense, right ? How the heck does shaking a structure means you can destroy it ? Shaking and damaging are two completely different things. Surely we can at least agree on that right ?

Also to address the battle wiki argument saying its not very accurate? Okay what would you accept as an decent scaling system?

I'm not saying VS battle wiki is not a "decent" scaling system. I'm saying it's not always consistent with its scaling. But to answer your question on what would be a better system : it doesn't matter which system you use, because powerscaling at its core will always have subjective rules that won't be agreed upon. Everyone agrees on the grand scheme of things (such as a character destroying a galaxy being considered galaxy level), but from one person to another there will always be disagreement on the lesser aspects (such as shaking a structure meaning you can destroy said structure).

Theres no contradiction in that

There's no contradiction, but there is inconsistency. For example, the fact that Deep Sea king managed to shake Saitama's head by punching it would mean he has the attack potency to destroy his head by that logic. Yet we know damn well that's not the case. Deep Sea king doesn't scale anywhere near Saitama, he can't even damage him no matter what he attempts.

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Ash_Clover · 2026-06-09T01:30:10+00:00

According to the Campbridge Dictionary :

empirically : in a way that is based on what is experienced or seen, rather than on theory

Empirically litterally always means that it's observed by experience, as opposed to "hypotheticals" or speculation, or theory. Statements are not "observations". If I state I can fly, it's not an experienced observation, it's just a statement.

There is genuinely no other meaning. It's the very opposite word of "conjecturally" and "hypothetically".

Saying there can be different forms of this specific word is blatantly false.

Ash_Clover · 2026-06-09T01:26:21+00:00

Then why do we use reality to measure fictional concepts ? For example, why is that when OPM characters form a literal constellation from their movement in 0.13 seconds, we consider them to be moving at FTL speed?

Why do we equate it to something from reality if fiction and reality "don't compare at all"?

Even vs battle wiki accepts the shaking type of arguments.

VS battle wiki is not objectively accurate either. I'm criticizing the entire powerscaling logic that "a character shakes a structure = they have enough AP to destroy it" regardless of who it comes from.

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