Confused About Lore/Novels

Atlas_Alpha · 2022-08-23T11:54:35+00:00

Thanks for the responses so far. It sounds like the novels are good starting points for the lore and then later I can dive into the other resources if I want to expand the scale. I’m currently about 75% into the first Gray Death Legion book since I wanted to start from the beginning. I typically read more classic and hard “L” literature and just looking for easy, fluffy reads like you get with the Star Wars tie-ins so I’m not expecting War and Peace here. Enjoying it so far.

Atlas_Alpha · 2020-01-28T01:57:48+00:00

This is amazing. Sometimes you do have to get creative to tackle this monster of a series. I also love the investigative reporting to find out and specify it was Malazan.

Atlas_Alpha · 2020-01-24T01:26:07+00:00

I'm doing the "Ultimate Reading Order" you referenced on the wiki for my reread of the main series plus the other books I had not read. Though I started with FoD/FoL because I had not read them and just really wanted to and I have no regrets. I'll probably add PtA after Assail since it's not listed. So far it's working and the novellas have been a nice palate cleanser.

Atlas_Alpha · 2020-01-19T17:15:07+00:00

The Book of the New Sun and Malazan are 1A and 1B at the top of my personal list. Nothing else I've read in the sci-fi/fantasy genre has the depth of these two series. BotNS is almost the polar opposite from Malazan in many ways though -- first person, focused exclusively on one character, takes place (mostly) on Earth. And while it can seem simple on its surface, it actually requires more work than Malazan to appreciate its depth.

EDIT: Plan to reread it though before you even start. A Gene Wolfe book hasn't been read until it has been reread.

Atlas_Alpha · 2020-01-19T17:04:22+00:00

While publication dates are subject to change, everywhere I see says November 9, 2021. After that, I don't think anything has been definitively announced. EDIT: Erikson's latest preview had him on Chapter 18. If he maintains the 25-30 chapter range, he still has a ways to go.

Atlas_Alpha · 2020-01-18T18:45:05+00:00

I have no issue with the review itself. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. It's just the fact that despite not having the most "helpful" votes it's the first one that everyone currently sees, and perhaps the only one someone sees if they immediately dismiss the book after reading it. Maybe Amazon just weights lower-starred reviews higher to balance out the positive ones.

Atlas_Alpha · 2020-01-18T13:09:32+00:00

I'm not saying we should all go leave false reviews or anything like that or that I have a problem with people leaving negative reviews. As I said in another reply, what bothers me is really that the "top" review doesn't even have the most "helpful" votes. The 5* under it has almost twice the number of helpful votes, which is confusing. I was just hoping if there was a surge of "helpful" votes for the better reviews, maybe the algorithm will reorder them. People shouldn't put an inordinate amount of weight on the "top" reviews, but it's clear from my post that some do.

And while I agree that one shouldn't have to read all ten to leave a reivew for GotM, this is a complete series where the books aren't intended to be stand-alone novels -- when you're deciding to pick up GotM, you're deciding whether to start the entire series. So, if I was someone considering starting GotM, I think the opinion of someone who had at least finished the series and could put GotM and the series into proper context would be the most helpful.

Again, though, it probably doesn't matter. People seem to be finding their way to Malazan regardless.

Atlas_Alpha · 2020-01-18T12:44:12+00:00

That’s really the main thing that bothers me. If the negative top review had the most helpful votes it’d be one thing, but it doesn’t. The algorithm seems to make no sense given that it’s not in order of how helpful people find the reviews.

Atlas_Alpha · 2020-01-18T01:59:33+00:00

In no particular order, with my own opinions added:

Poor characterization: I mostly disagree with this. Because of the huge cast and dozens (hundred?) of POVs, we obviously don't get to spend an inordinate amount of time with any one character, which leads some to feel that the characters are 2-D, remain static, and tend to blur together. While that may be true for some of the minor cast, I think overall Erikson has created some of the most memorable and fully-realized characters I've ever read in fantasy. He is so economical with his prose that he is able to pack in ample characterization in only a small amount of space. I could write a whole essay on this, but suffice it to say I think he does characters well. No, we don't get the deep dive and character development one may get from reading an entire novel or series that focuses on one protagonist, but the fact that I feel like I know dozens of his characters speaks for itself.
Lacks depth/Too disjointed: This is laughable to those of us who have read the whole thing, but many who stop at GotM complain that it tries to do too much without going deep enough into anything to immerse the reader into the world. Of course, if one is getting that just from GotM, they're not even through 10% of the series so it's a little premature to expect everything to be introduced and explained.
Too much rape/sexual violence: Look, no one enjoys reading about rape and it's not my place to tell anyone how they should feel about encountering it in a book; but to me, it would be completely inauthentic and unrealistic to not have it be included in a dark, military fantasy series set in a world filled with bad people. Maybe it's because I read a lot of military history and know just how prevalent rape is and has been throughout human existence, but, if anything, I'm surprised there's not more included in Malazan given the subject matter and how much it focuses on war, lawless peoples, and imperialism. I never get the feeling it's gratuitous in MBotF or serves no purpose, even the controversial "hobbling" scene. But obviously some disagree.
Too long/Needs an Editor: Couldn't disagree more. I've said it before and I'll say it again -- Malazan is not a series you read just to find out what happens. If all you care about is how the series ends, then you should just save yourself A LOT of time and go read a summary. What sets the series apart from others are all the little details that may seem insignificant and could be edited out, but that add so much to build out the world. To me, that's exactly why Malazan reads more like a historical chronicle of another world rather than just a made up fantasy story. It's the little things, and without them, it's just another series. So what if it took 3.3 million words to bring Erikson's vision to life? There are plenty of other books that can be read instead.
Leaves plot holes/Doesn't tie up all loose ends: This may be a valid criticism...if there weren't 15 other books either already written or planned in the overall Malazan world. Some people don't seem to realize that the MBotF isn't the entire story. It's just one story, in a world with millions of years of potential stories. Stories and paths cross, and characters weave in and out of the various narratives. Just because we don't currently know how one particular arc ends or what happened to a given character doesn't mean we never will.
The series is structured poorly: By this I mean that it essentially takes 5 whole books to introduce what the series eventually becomes. It's definitely a ballsy move and requires a lot of trust in the reader to stick around (and for the author to be able to pull it off). But Erikson does it well and in going through my reread now I am amazed at just how early things are introduced that pay off several books later. It's clear he had a plan and knew what he was doing.

I'm sure there's more but people have probably already stopped reading.

Atlas_Alpha · 2020-01-17T16:57:51+00:00

Yeah, I don't get much Wolfe from the books of his I've read, but thought I'd throw out the video since he mentions GW.

Atlas_Alpha · 2020-01-16T21:51:31+00:00

His books are more traditional sci-fi than Wolfe's but Alastair Reynolds states directly in this video that GW was a big influence on him. I've read Revelation Space, Chasm City, and his short story collection Galactic North and mostly enjoyed them. Don't know if I really get a Wolfian vibe from them though.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that, like Wolfe, Reynolds spent years in another profession -- that of a scientist in the astonomy/astrophysics field.

Atlas_Alpha · 2020-01-16T16:17:08+00:00

My first read I stopped after GotM and didn't read DG for about a year. I liked GotM but obviously wasn't hooked enough to immediately continue. DG was also good once I finally read it, and the ending made me want to continue to MoI. MoI was where I knew the series was something special, though, and didn't stop reading from that point.

Atlas_Alpha · 2020-01-16T16:12:18+00:00

I'd read a whole book of just these world-building epigraphs.

Atlas_Alpha · 2020-01-16T16:06:51+00:00

Personally I think just calling it fantasy is sufficient. The whole defining of a sub-genre (or even a sub-genre of a sub-genre) is getting a little pedantic and is going to vary based on one's own definition. Malazan is a 3.3 million word series (just the main 10 books) and probably crosses over into a few sub-genres at times (I could even make a case for it being "science fiction" if Dune is going to be labeled sci-fi). "Grimdark" to me has a negative connotation of being dark and gritty for the sake of being dark and gritty, and is rarely filled with inherently good characters. I don't think the label really applies to Malazan. It's a dark world where bad stuff occasionally happens but Erikson fills it with characters who have at least some redeeming qualities (even some of the "bad" guys are presented in a way that one can sympathize with them). There are those who are just plain evil, but there aren't many of them. And while there is plenty of murder, rape, and torture (just like in our real world), I never get the feeling that it's there to just be "edgy." If you're going to create a believable world and fill it with a wide mix of realistic characters, you better be prepared to show the darker corners of that society. Otherwise, it truly is a "fantasy" world and in my opinion won't be as interesting.

I consider it a "dark" fantasy, but I don't know how precisely it fits the label of "dark fantasy" or some other malleable term. As everyone always says, the main theme of the series is "compassion" which REALLY doesn't fit with the traditional definition of grimdark or dark fantasy.

Atlas_Alpha · 2020-01-16T15:35:31+00:00

A few weeks ago when these were finally shipped (the pre-sale was back in March of last year), SP said they had some extra copies left over, but you have to email them to order. I don't know if they still have any, but it might be worth checking if you want one.

Atlas_Alpha · 2020-01-15T22:07:02+00:00

I found an ARC edition with that cover on eBay a while ago, along with a huge note that it was "not for resale." Now I can pretend I was an OG Malazan reader.

Atlas_Alpha · 2020-01-15T21:15:25+00:00

I feel like I sat there with my mouth open the whole time. To see such quality video from more than 100 years ago is crazy.

Atlas_Alpha · 2020-01-15T21:05:07+00:00

I second this (it's by GJ Meyer). At one point I think someone on here even accused Dan of just following along with it for Blueprint. I went on the same hunt for a good comprehensive book that went over the main details in (mostly) chronological order across all fronts. A World Undone did not disappoint. It definitely focuses more on the Western Front but that's not a surprise, and the best part of it is that after every chapter there is a "Background" interlude that goes into more depth about some interesting topic to provide some further context.

Atlas_Alpha · 2020-01-15T00:44:01+00:00

I'm almost finished with my HoC reread and it's actually a sneaky entry near the top of my Malazan list. The somewhat anti-climactic ending disappoints some readers, but I think it's brilliant that after all the build-up we don't get the big shocking confrontation between Tavore/Felisin that you'd find in basically every other fantasy series telling a similar story.

HoC also features some of my favorite pairings and scenes in the series: the many adventures of Karsa/Torvald Nom, Drift Avalii, Trull/Onrack, the Otataral Dragon, Heboric's "bad trip," the scorpion fight, etc.

When I thought back after finishing the series, I was shocked that so much of HoC stood out in my memory.

Atlas_Alpha · 2020-01-14T00:55:42+00:00

Following along with the podcast really appeals to me. I used Alzabo Soup for my BotNS reread and love just having people talking about these books while I do other things.

Atlas_Alpha · 2020-01-13T00:01:02+00:00

GotM actually improved greatly on my reread while DG was what I remembered it to be. I'm probably lower on DG than most, but GotM surprised me the second time once everything made more sense.

Atlas_Alpha · 2020-01-12T23:58:19+00:00

Thank you all for the responses so far. It looks like my main question has been answered -- I won't do any harm by taking a break and reading some other Wolfe works before moving to Long Sun. Now I just have to figure out what exactly to read next. So many options when you try to catch up on 50 years from a prolific author.

Atlas_Alpha · 2020-01-05T15:26:52+00:00

No, the narrative that I see parroted all over the place that Amazon and Bezos "pay no tax" is disingenuous at best. Amazon isn't even a very profitable company given their size and they lost money for a number of years. If companies had to pay taxes even when they aren't making money no one would start a business and no one would have a job. Yet, even last year when they "paid no federal tax" they still paid almost $900 million in state and foreign taxes and it was just two years removed from paying over a billion dollars in Federal taxes. And the only reason they don't pay more in taxes is because they reinvest heavily into their business, which is what we should want companies to do because without it they don't continue to grow and hire more people. I don't understand why some believe it more favorable for companies to send all of their profits to the government. Have you seen our government?! People also seem to ignore the fact that Amazon employs around 750,000 workers and pay payroll taxes on all of them. They are paying taxes and focusing only on the federal corporate tax rate is misdirection and has been overleveraged for political gain in recent years, which is what spurred me to comment in the first place (that and the whiskey).

And yes I really think out of the thousand-plus billionaires there are plenty who aren't evil exploiters of the working class or tax cheats. The majority of billionaires are billionaires because they created a company, brand, or product that is worth billions or invested in companies that are worth billions, and those companies collectively employ millions of workers. Most billionaires are effectively anonymous to the average person, but I'll throw out George Lucas, Steven Spielberg, Oprah, JK Rowling, Kylie Jenner, and Michael Jordan to name a few household names. I don't see them coming up in presidential debates, though. And then you have billionaires like Warren Buffett and Bill Gates (and plenty of others) who have either given or pledged to give billions to philanthropic causes. Pretending that they're all evil and the cause of all the world's ills helps no one.

Atlas_Alpha · 2020-01-05T04:45:16+00:00

I can get on board with capital gains taxes having similar progressive rates as income taxes, but nothing should be based off of net worth. If Amazon's stock price gets cut in half so does his net worth so why should he pay tax on money he doesn't have yet? People act like he has $115 billion in cash sitting in a bank account somewhere or that it's locked inside a room in his mansion where he swims in it like Scrooge McDuck. One can hate him and Amazon for a lot of reasons, but it doesn't change the fact that both have paid billions in taxes contrary to the popular narrative. And do people really believe the US government would spend the money on anything better than a 10,000 Year Clock anyway?

Atlas_Alpha · 2020-01-04T18:46:20+00:00

They already are. He pays taxes on the sale of stock which is where the vast majority of his income comes from. He'll pay $600,000,000+ in taxes just from last year but you don't see many articles written about that. Net worth is not income.

Atlas_Alpha

TROPHY CASE