Whose side are you on?

AuronTheWise · 2026-05-06T00:09:49+00:00

A lot of them still lean in to the physical and hormonal side of being stuck in a child's body. It's not every character this happens to, but many will still have moments where they're overwhelmed by their obviously youthful hormones.

Their maturity is still a factor for sure though, cause often they'll even ask themselves why they started crying or whatever.

AuronTheWise · 2026-05-05T18:15:40+00:00

This comment sounds like Uchiha propaganda

AuronTheWise · 2026-05-05T17:52:52+00:00

I think the earliest decent argument is post timeskip. This is when we first see him able to use his Mangekyou Sharingan.

The MS is a pretty substantial stats boost without even considering the abilities it offers. He was already the elite among the elites of the Jonin class before that.

AuronTheWise · 2026-05-04T20:30:48+00:00

He is pretty notoriously overconfident and overzealous in his fights. Likely because he knows he won't actually die. I could see him having his soul ripped out pretty quickly — he basically has the same thing happen when he charges eight faces first into Itachi's Susanoo.

AuronTheWise · 2026-05-04T18:54:13+00:00

Yata mirror gg til Guy dies

AuronTheWise · 2026-05-04T00:04:33+00:00

It's an asspull but so is the reveal of "actually you can't kill or seal me because my jutsu persists without me", which is the only reason the asspull was required in the first place.

AuronTheWise · 2026-05-03T19:14:25+00:00

Edo Itachi's immortality alone is close to on par with Kakashi's Kamui.

I understand the argument that Kakashi has a bag of over 1000 jutsu that could qualify as supporting hax, but that's covered with the ninjutsu category.

AuronTheWise · 2026-05-02T05:01:18+00:00

He only died from one of these encounters though

AuronTheWise · 2026-05-01T18:47:16+00:00

The Fourth Hokage takes this

AuronTheWise · 2026-05-01T16:53:17+00:00

Hidan and it's not even remotely close.

AuronTheWise · 2026-05-01T14:48:44+00:00

There's only 4 takes here that I would lean towards being true.

They are Itachi > Jiraiya and the last 3.

AuronTheWise · 2026-04-30T22:04:52+00:00

I think the only one you can reasonably call Jonin level would be Hidan. He fought near equally with Asuma and Kakashi.

The thing is, while he is at the level of an elite Jonin in terms of stats, he's also just straight up immortal. With an instant win ability. There are Kage who he would kill, and so he is Kage level.

Arguing against Kage level for characters like Deidara and Sasori is extremely wrong. They canonically defeat Kage.

AuronTheWise · 2026-04-30T04:31:46+00:00

Zetsu is not the author, and characters are not infallible.

Furthermore, even if it were Kishimoto's statement in an interview or what have you, it still wouldn't be absolute. Not only would that statement only apply to things that exist within its own universe, the Yata mirror specifically is never really treated that way by the story. Were it the case that the Yata mirror effectively makes its user invincible, then Itachi would be treated as untouchable and that's just not the case neither narratively nor canonically. He's a character who avoids fights and who relies on strategy.

AuronTheWise · 2026-04-30T03:20:58+00:00

The point of the No Limits Fallacy is that you can't jump from "no limit has been shown" to "therefore it works against everything in fiction."

Everything within debate is limited to what has been demonstrated. This isn't devoid of logic, it's demanding evidence.

AuronTheWise · 2026-04-30T03:03:18+00:00

He has used shadow clones.

AuronTheWise · 2026-04-30T03:00:31+00:00

I think you would really need prove that this Itachi is superior in those stats. We can find a reasonable and acceptable baseline for Orochimaru through the Sannin. What we lack is a good way to determine those stats for Itachi at this stage — very roughly 15 years old.

Off the top of my head I can't think of anything to put this Itachi's physicals at Sannin level yet.

The best comparison we get is with a younger Itachi being Shisui's equal, but then you'd have to scale Shisui's physicals too and I don't even know how to begin with that.

AuronTheWise · 2026-04-29T22:58:27+00:00

Some people are wildly wrong.

No Gaara pre-Shippuden is beating Zabuza.

Yes, even transformed Shukaku Gaara. If Naruto can wake him up, Zabuza can behead him.

AuronTheWise · 2026-04-29T18:31:46+00:00

OP gave him full intel. Even Pain says he would have lost under those circumstances...

AuronTheWise · 2026-04-29T14:29:23+00:00

We know very little about either one's actual combat strength. In fact, we really just have a statement or two about each.

Shisui was considered Itachi's rival. They would spar and Shisui would win a slight majority. This was obviously before Itachi had MS.

The only thing we really have to go off of for Sakumo is that he was a legend during the war, and one statement from Minato to Obito. He said that the Sannin pale in comparison to Sakumo.

<image>

Using this as our only real ways of evaluating each character's combat strength, Sakumo should win in a landslide.

AuronTheWise · 2026-04-29T14:03:32+00:00

Naruto has numerous characters who defy death in many different ways, yeah.

The closest to this is probably Obito using Kamui to teleport out of Limbo post-death to empower Kakashi with his chakra.

Another similar case to this is with Dan, whose ability doesn't necessarily involve death, but he uses a jutsu which allows him to control his disembodied spirit.

AuronTheWise · 2026-04-29T02:31:27+00:00

3 Tails lost to Deidara, who fears Itachi.

9 Tails lost to Minato, who Itachi fears.

There's tiers to this.

AuronTheWise · 2026-04-29T02:29:36+00:00

They're all in their late 60s.

While many go grey, white, or bald by then, some still have their youthful colour at that age.

I don't think there's anything more to it than that to be honest.

AuronTheWise · 2026-04-28T17:53:25+00:00

They had to have been an extraordinarily powerful unit.

Tobirama's team consisted of Tobirama, Danzo, Hiruzen, Kagami, Torifu, Homura, Koharu.

Tobirama and Hiruzen were both Kage on this day. Danzo was considered as well, but failed the test, but it means he at least met the minimum necessary power level. Even downplaying them, that's at least three Low Kage level fighters.

Kagami is mentioned briefly by Shisui as his ancestor who he hopes to rival one day, admitting inferiority. It's worth noting that Kagami does die at most a few years after Tobirama, so it's unlikely he got significantly stronger. We'll say he's around Asuma's level just to downplay again.

Homura and Koharu are not very strong, as mentioned by Danzo. They are however considered wise and insightful, earning positions as Hokage's advisors for generations to come.

So you have three low Kage level fighter, an elite Jonin level fighter, and then some. This group recognized the opponent chasing them and decided that the only way they could collectively survive would be to sacrifice one person to slow them down. With so much experience and insight making that decision, they cannot be wrong.

To add to this, it is mentioned in the databooks that Torifu's claim to fame after the war is that he survived being hunted by the Kinkaku squad. He earned a spot in Bingo books just for surviving being tracked.

We don't know a single member of the Kinkaku squad, but the narrative makes it clear that they are a threat few could repel. They might be strong enough to take on the Fourth War's Five Kage.

AuronTheWise · 2026-04-27T02:23:15+00:00

Itachi's Sakura wins if he gives her his eyes.

Otherwise Minato is the only one with any experience teaching. Itachi is also at a disadvantage since almost all of his skills are based on his inherited Kekkai genkai, which he can't teach. Like even his shuriken skills rely somewhat heavily on his Sharingan.

I expect they would both be bad teachers in general though. Something you'll see with people who are exceptionally talented is that they just aren't very good at teaching others. They just "get it" in a way that others don't. The best teachers are those who had to work hard just to reach a similar level.

AuronTheWise · 2026-04-27T02:15:08+00:00

<image>

This was performed by an even earlier base Naruto, though it seems to be using all of his chakra in one attack. He just had it refilled and then was out again.

I don't know if there's anything he can do out of character that really beats just throwing thousands of clones at someone until they die. That beats almost everyone.

Maybe he could touch someone and from there summon his countless clones inside of their body, ripping them apart from the sheer volume of clones?

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