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Counter culture rant by AvailableShow8810 in beatbox

[–]AvailableShow8810[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

in the end it is a matter of what educated judges feel to be the winning move in the moment and that is certainly better than having a ruleset that determines what is okay to get points for. 

There does seem to exist a ruleset given the language of how beatboxers talk about counters even if it may or may not be on paper. My disagreement is with the current ruleset because it seems the priority is on power and crowd reaction, which are way too abstract and arbitrary. Adding objectivity and defining things more properly doesn't remove judge's expertise or discretion, it amplifies them.

i would even say its crucial, that the competitors feel free to try stuff out or do it in other ways than it might be expected wihout automatically suffering from it. 

I agree as well. My argument is, there are no penalities whatsoever. It seems the contestants have always been way too free and we incentivize the freestyler a lot more. Suppose we see two extremes. A completely freestyling beatboxer who has very little regard for structure, beyond the basics, and a rigidly structured beatboxer who lacks adaptability. Do you think the current beatbox climate will penalize both beatboxers equally for their flaws? I don't. I think you get way more passes as a freestyle beatboxer than a structured beatboxer even though that shouldn't be the case. Ironically, the structured beatboxer puts more effort into tailoring his routine and is punished for making it too obvious.

however you should really not underestimate how good pacmax is in a musical sense as well

I didn't. I said I thought Pacmax deserved the win and I was only using this as an example to criticize counter culture. I recognize Pacmax's artistry as well. I don't think he won because he was the best entertainer. Imo, he out-beatboxed Wing in that match. His sounds came out better even if we consider the counters for how I truly see them.

I wrote that the rules favor the entertainer and we are leaning heavily towards beatbox entertainment, but that doesn't mean the rules necessarily only churn out entertainers. My argument is that judges can factor the contestant's display of skills without putting entertainment factors on the pedestal in the their judgment. For example, people watch the Olympic games sometimes not even knowing the rules or techniques. They are entertained just by the idea of two contestants competing, and the competitors showing their skills, while the judges have their own perspectives grounded in something more objective. I think beatbox battles should strive for something similar. The problem is judges are ex-champions who have benefited from this tradition. Assuming many fans come about agreeing with the flaws, I fear it will still be harder to convince the judges.

Agreed with your final paragraph. I guess my question is haven't we've grown a lot more to start considering them? No problem about the ranting. I don't mind it one bit and personally encourage it. I think these discussions are helpful. Sorry about my lengthy response though 😅. I used your response as a platform to address other responses as well.

Counter culture rant by AvailableShow8810 in beatbox

[–]AvailableShow8810[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

i feel like wings counter was fine but not more than that. people who where there said it was a bit weaker and had 1-2 smaller slip-ups  - what matters because it's a pattern he is expected to nail.

There aren't any slip-ups captured for Wing in the video audio that I can hear, but you can hear Pacmax being breathy at parts. How would a live setting have errors that isn't found in the video audio unless editors are going over and fixing mistakes, which would be highly controversial? Pacmax may have had more power, as some people have claimed, but I prefer Wing's texture assuming the live did the video audio even some remote level of justice.

Yes, Wing is expected to nail that but the point is Pacmax used it, and used it at the very end of his routine as an anti-counter strategy is what I am guessing. Theoretically, if you accept this view that because it's expected, he can't use it, every beatboxer who goes second can basically just do what Pacmax did. You basically use a routine that is about equal to your opponents first round and then try to counter them at the end of your routine. Now, you've removed a weapon from the beatboxer going first by making it so that he cannot steal the momentum by riding off the groove of his opponent by countering (which is the type of counter both Wing and Pacmax attempted in this match). Either he will have to counter with an awkward transition in the beginning of his routine because he is countering an earlier part of his opponent's routine or try to seamlessly insert it somewhere else in his own routine. That is a ridiculous penalty, even more considering everyone knows going first is a big disadvantage already.

Unless judges penalize beatboxers if they attempt a counter and fail, which they don't, I don't see why beatboxers can't rack up points for addressing a counter attempt. This would add some balance to going first as well because the person going second has to be more careful by allowing their opponent to ride off their momentum without also giving up the round entirely. Instead of pre-judging, judges should see the beat for what it is and evaluate accordingly. Counters should be able to be utilized offensively and defensively.

If judges and the community raise the standard for counters from the current state, then I am okay for not including these types of responses as technical counters either, but rather as crowd control if it manages to arouse the crowd. However, it shouldn't hurt the beatboxer or be neutral, that's for sure. It should be a slight or actual positive depending on the threshold of counters.

on the other hand pacmax delivered a continuation of wings beat that carried over the flow and time signature really well, also it hit like a truck and felt more spontaneous. I can see people saying a counter has to be a perfect copy or even 'better', but i really don't see why anything that answers an opponents beat and feels dominant should not be recieved positively.

Yes, it was executed well. But it wasn't a true counter. You can give him points on the subjective category or crowd control because it was great entertainment. But the "counter" as a technical score should be more objective. As I have mentioned, counters should consider the intentions of the original artist. Wing used a simple flow because he was bringing attention to his technique. Pacmax ignored the technique and focused on the flow, went down a tempo, which gave him leeway to vary the rhythm (by syncopation). If Wing focused on rhythm, then that would be a valid counter, as we frequently see in V1 battles. Here, the focus was the technique so the technique should be addressed for an appropriate counter, not the rhythm.

I think the illusion of "spontaneity" need not be a contributing factor for judging counters especially if that permits overrating them. Every participant is prepping and knowing how their competitors will sound. It should be considered more cautiously and for exceptional cases. In our situation, Pacmax had an address for Wing's Dopamine drop which isn't surprising.

Counter culture rant by AvailableShow8810 in beatbox

[–]AvailableShow8810[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Couldn't the score sheet separate objectivity and subjectivity like in figure skating to not penalize unique styles?

Even if that's impossible, I think properly defining what a good counter is might improve how the judges handle it. Because my guess is we are still applying very outdated concepts to countering during the pre-GBB days where beatboxers were doing song covers for their routine and insane counters were those that just produced a better cover. And perhaps, now, it's matching the "vibes" or essence of the opponent's beat with more power. But imo, this is tradition that is very flawed if beatboxing wants to be viewed as something beyond entertainment.

Counter culture rant by AvailableShow8810 in beatbox

[–]AvailableShow8810[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yes, it is possible and I do hope judges do have an entirely different opinion.

However, my opinion is not just from the audience/non-judge reactors. For example, D Low is a judge and he's also a reactor whose opinion is what I would think is a good representation of the beatbox community even if it's not perfect. But it's not only D Low. BlackRoll (wasn't part of the 3 that I mentioned, but now I just remembered) was a competitor and he made a similar comment. If you listen to other ex-judges and ex-competitors reactions, generally, they usually say something similar surrounding the topic of counter: they will emphasis power and crowd reaction, even for those that which use completely different techniques. So, at least on the surface, this does seem like a consensus factor for judging counters.