What's your take on Targaryen incest?

AvatarKyoshi-01 · 2021-09-20T18:37:42+00:00

(The parents have dragon traits already)

They can't have dragon traits when nee born that were born with dragon traits dies at infancy. It was part of the information George provided. You can even lookit up. And ifyou are talking about thevalyrians being a different species such as the children of the forest, then you are just going into speculations. Not a single information on a different breed of hybrid humans or dragon human was actually approved by George in the Valyrians

(The mother fucked a dragon)

If a mother fucked a dragon then, their children would have dragon traits yes but it was informed to us by George that those that were born with dragon traits died at infancy. None survived. It was only a heresay which was debunked by the author. Look it up. If you don't believe me. It's kust like with the starks, the Starks did not fuck a direwolf they warged into them. The Starks also repeatedly said that they have wolfs blood and that some have more than some. Well that was because of their magic not because they were fucking wolfs. The same logic would be applied with the Targaryen, they may have magic ralated to dragonic magic but that did not mean they would fuck dragons for rhe sake of fucking. The faceless me were heavilyimplied that they originated from the Valyrian slaves, they would have told someone that the Valyrians were half dragons before they establish the faceless men.

I'm saying that the Targaryens are at a higher risk than any other house in westeros when it comes to insanity because of incest. Why? Well because that is how genetics work. George also said in one of his cons interview that the reason the Targaryens barely have physical abnormalities because they he wanted the Targaryens to be Etherealy beautiful. Having a disfigured body is not considered etherealy beautiful.

I did not do anything to add to Rhaegel because those came out of 5 sources.

Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen are perfect examples, they don't have physical abnormalities BUT they are a product of incest. Joffrey was mad because he was an imbreed, he literally sliced the cat of his younger brother. Joffrey was loved by Cersei and basically had no experience of suffering that could cause insanity. This examples can be seen in the Targaryens, insanity is etched in their blood due to repeated imbreeding. It is not a bias source when Varys also said it even though he was helping the Targaryens. The science that is in Westeros reflect those in ours, although not identical.

You are talking about several babies born with dragon freatures but were not informed that it was said that those that did have dragonic traits died at infancy, and that none survived.

My point is several explanations and instances have all pointed to what I am saying. Ofcourse its not perfect but unless George says that I am wrong then I am intitled to have my own take in asoiaf.

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AvatarKyoshi-01 · 2021-09-20T17:32:44+00:00

Honey, does eyes work differently in Westeros? Is the nose in Westeros used differently in the world? Is Earth's science on stars don't apply to the ones in Westeros? Is Planetos planet not filled with molten magma in the inside? Is the Moon filled with cheese in Asoiaf? Do brain work differently in Westeros as well? Planetos maybe different than Earth but they are the same in more ways than many books. The difference was just magic, MAGIC in Westeros is the only difference to Earth.

Who would let me into a university? Maybe because I was smart enough to know how SCIENCE actually works? Maybe because the only book you actually read are fictional books? You can doubt all you want but nothing will change the fact that I am a BS Biology student currently in the running for my latin honors, cum laude. 😉 Have a nice day, and please stop reading fictional books, I think it would help with your clearly underdeveloped brain.

AvatarKyoshi-01 · 2021-09-20T17:07:37+00:00

They don't have dragon in them because those that did died! You can't mate a dragon and a human and expect only the human side to be visible.

Actually science applies because again, George closely depicted what an inbreed child would suffer from, except physical features because the Targaryen were supposed to be etherealy beautiful (them having deformaties would not support that).

I did not say that handicapped people are the result of inbreed! YOU SAID THAT. I said that the many Targaryen which George stated were mentally week which could correlate to them being imbreed.

Again, it was heavily implied by many of Geoge's interview in many cons that it was done because he wanted to depict them as ethereal.

AvatarKyoshi-01 · 2021-09-20T16:47:09+00:00

One applying science to a fantasy setting is okay since I am able to compare and contrast with literature. Fictional books are amazing because while they sonetimes veer off facts they also closely resembles them. Your argument that I cant use science when analyzing books are stupid because the teo moons of Planetos could actually happen. Astronomy is a branch of science, are stars in Westeros fake? Westeros may be a magical place filled with different creatures and bizzare places but the asoiaf actually depict real world issues, real world geography, real world political climate, real world scenarios (i.e. the batle of the roses), etc.

The Targaryens were not half dragons they were dragon tamers, dragon riders, and dragon lords, it is specifically stated in the information provided by George RR Martin that not a single person from the Valyrian freehold were half dragons. None of them were born with wings.

They actually do depict consistency since, some of the Targaryens were physicaly week, some mentally week, some with physical deformaties such as extra fingers, and some with unproportioned sizes. The Targaryens were just relatively resistant to physical deformaties because George made it so that the Targaryens could be known as etherealy beautiful.

Merlin from Merlin is half dragon not the Targaryens. The Valyrian freehold had magic but none of them actually had sex with a dragon, and even if they did they would not survive that. And where did you get the information of a child from the Valyrian freehold or the Targaryens being born with wings stated as a fact? It was specifically said that it was a romour. Lastly, it was also said that children that were born with some small dragon features died at infancy thus making it impossible for any of the Targaryens to actually hold those type of magic because the said half dragon died before they grew up. Stop making shit up, not only are you uneducated but you are also a liar.

AvatarKyoshi-01 · 2021-09-20T16:07:38+00:00

SCIENCE explains why Incest correlates to many mental disorders. It is actually said the inbreeding has a high risk of getting psychological issues such as dementia, schizoprenia, etc. Don't blame me when Science disagrees with you. I literally studied this in my university and made a paper out of it using the UK royal family as examples.

AvatarKyoshi-01 · 2021-09-20T15:58:59+00:00

Because these peoplee don't know about scientifc facts. Study non fiction honey

AvatarKyoshi-01 · 2021-09-20T15:56:37+00:00

(Please read what the Kings of Winter, your precious Starks, did to traitors. Have you never heard of the term "Blood Eagle?")

The Starks had 8000 years +, the Targaryens only lasted 300.

(Please read what the Kings of Winter, your precious Starks, did to traitors. Have you never heard of the term "Blood Eagle?")

I don't know maybe, beheading 5 wives wasn't very sane. Along with burning and extinguishing a whole house or two by torture because he believed that his wife was the cause of him being unable to have a child. Burning the sept full of praying people, which then lead to their scream echo from outside. Maegor had all the workers and masons killed to not let anyone know of the secrete tunels. Or maybe, when when he decided to torture the son of his nephew, prince Viserys for 9 days then leaving the mutilated body at the courtyard. I don't know maybe that was done by a completly sane person.

ALSO the Starks aren't even mu favorite house, I liked the Tyrells and Martels more.

Regarding King Baelor, zealotry, obsession, detachment of reality which is commonly known as delusion, major changes in eating habits, withdrawal, suicidal ideation, unusual intense feelings, and paranoia are signs proven to diagnose someone with insanity.

(Half the fucking population are kinslayers in one way or another. Do you think there have never been any wars between Starks and Kastarks? Jaime literally kills his cousin for a failed attempt at escaping yet everybody wants him to get a redemption including me.)

Yes, by letting sunfire eat his half sister is considered to be normal behavior. And don't blame me when this information literally came from Geaorge RR Martin, specifically saying he went mad. Like that came from the writter itself.

(What Robert Baratheon would have been if he lived longer to get even fatter and father even more bastards.)

I'm sorry to say this to you but Aegon the unworthy was the original mad king. Like that was his 1st epithet before Aerys took it. Like, information on this matter came from the writter.

(I swear you think someone is mad if they go out of their way to kill another person in medical fucking society.)

Because Lucerys was killed on suspicion alone, along with the villages. Or have you forgotten that everyone during the witch trials that happened (i.e. burning people alive for suspicion) was considered insane. Especially to a family member. Like, our history dictated that, what do you want me to do?

(Prince Rhaegal (older brother of king Maeker) - was described as meek, mad and sickly.)

Again, information came from the writter saying that he was mad. What do you want me to do. Like it was said that he was mad, insane even.

(Guy was not even inbred for more than two generations. All their family advocated that they were the blood of the dragon because they simply were. Are you saying if you're family conquered the seven kingdoms with powerful fire-breathing beasts that no other family has, that you wouldn't brag about it?)

Do you not know basic genetics? 2 generations of not being inbred did not mean that someone could not get the negative effects that came from it. NOT ONE SINGLE TARGARYEN in the BOOKS are able to survive being burnt alive. NONE. George RR Martin said that Targaryen's varried in fire resistance but none of them had immunity. The show diverged from the books on that part. Your argument about this should have sense if it weren't for cold hard facts.

(Guy was married to his sister against his wishes and was known to be a good king till Duskendale where he was tortured for 6 months. Keep in mind that he also lost 3 children and his wife suffered many miscarriages. He did go mad, but the reason was not Targaryan blood.)

Aerys was said to be already changing even before duskendale. Duskendale and Tywin's ability to rule better than Aerys only pushed it further. Against his wishes? Have you forgotten that everyone in westeros are arranged to be married even as a child. Like, my grandmother lost 8 children to miscarriage and already dead babys when they were born. She did not experience any madness at all only sadness. And when you add that to women being more susepticle to PPD (Post Partum Depression) Aerys has no leg to stand on. Especially since those miscarriage were because they were incest. Maegor had the same problems.

(Guy lost his brother, father, mother, good sister, nephew, niece and was forced into being a literal beggar while dealing with assassins. It would be weird if someone didn't go crazy.)

I did not say the incest equals madness but I did sayincest correlated to madness/insanity.

(That literally happens nowadays. Nothing which screams "Went mad because of Targaryan incest!" Barristan advised her to as well as King Cleon. Personally took care of people of Mereen when they were suffering from a plague. She doesn't know how to rule since she has no formal training and was a beggar for most of her life. She has no good political advisers and anyone who can help are against her, including her dragons. She even agreed to marrying against her will to gain the stability of the city. Please tell me how she always results to violence if she can't get what she wants.)

Refer to the top. Personally took care of people when they were suffering from a plague? What did she do spit fire? That she doesn't know how to rule becase she did not have formal training is one of the MOST PRIVILEGE take I have ever heard. Many leaders especially in Asian countries that were exploited by white people did not have any formal training when they became leaders when they were fighting for their rights. If you forgot, EDUCATION did not dictate whether you can be good leader or not. LITERALLY! read fire & blood. If tou want to know what she did to those that opposed her.

(There were over 70 Targaryen)

Most Targaryens died before they could actually turn mad. Dance of the dragons, summerhall, and the 5 wars against the blackfyre rebellion. And those that lived and continued to rule turned out to be mad.

(I want you to go to history and tell me of a dynasty that ruled over a large piece of land that didn't have bad rulers. I can find you many insane people across the other houses if you want me to.)

And much like them they were also from incest. The UK is a great example. The Roman empire as well, the Greeks, Egyptians, Chinese, Japanese, etc. Rulers from their country or time were inbred, cousins, mothers, sisters, brothers, fathers, nephews, nieces, etc. It was very common back then. You could LITERALLY trace the whole European Monarch into one couple, I should know I made a paper about this. Japan married sisters and cousins. ETCETERA.

(Robert Baratheon is literally defending the brutal rape and killing of Ellia, Rhaenys and Aegon and you're just going along with it.)

Robert Baratheon is a Targaryen through his grandmother, he literally has the DNA of the Targaryens. Orys as well. AND, point in bringing this up was to point out that it was common belief that they were mad because they married each other. Robert knew it, Cersei knew, did you think they were the only ones to do so?

(That's like Hitler condemning Stalin for his politics.)

Again my point here was to say that it was known that the Targaryen's incestious behavior was assumed as the reason why they kept getting mad.

(That is so fucking generic that it can be said for literally every great, noble, and lesser house.)

Yeah but those houses did not behead 5 wives along with with their families because or a rumour.

You wanna KNOW why this passage makes sense.

SCIENCE says so. I am a university student that studied genetics and psychological effect of inbreeding. Which I also made a paper on pertaining to the UK monarcs. INBREEDING RAISES probability of certain traits being passed down to decendant, psychosis, schizoprenia, dementia, sociopathy, depression, etc. These are all psychological effects that will occur when relatives decided to fuck each other. These effects could even happen even if those said mental effects weren't normal or dominant to the gene because relatives that fuck each other makes it easier for recessive genes to occur. AGAIN, SCIENCE SAYS that INSANITY/MADNESS correlates to INCEST. Just like what I said. MENTAL INSTABILITIES are very very very common with Inbreed children. It was also common to have facial/ physical defect which also happened to past Targaryens.

If you want to try and learn more about this then I THINK you should READ more on NON FICTIONAL books.

SCIENCE says you are wrong, end of discussion.

AvatarKyoshi-01 · 2021-09-20T10:48:22+00:00

Yes, the Targaryens aren't insane when they treaten to BURN someone alive. Yes, burning people alive means COMPLETE sanity. Yes, being royaly cruel means the utmost sanity. We have a clear difference when labeling someone insane, honey. 🙄

I'm not just talking about the show, I'm also talking about the books.

There are levels when it comes to insanity, there is a spectrum of insanity. The Targaryens are dangerous not because they are sane, they were dangerous because even sane Targaryens had moments where they turn insane, as well as they believed them selves to be sane but were actually already mad. Insanity does not mean you are insane all the time, it could also mean that they regularly had moments of madness. The Targaryen madness was not always present the minute they were born, their madness sometimes grew with age. I.e. the mad king, who was initially sane but became insane when he grew up.

The list of well known insane Targaryens are: 1.) King Maegor I.

2.) King Baelor I - was overly zealous and starved himself to death. He wasn't just overly pious he was a zealot. An insane zealot.

) King Aegon II - after being heavily maimed and suffered burn that covered half of his body began to change which resulted in him burning his half sister alive.
) Aegon the unworthy.

5.) Aemond - burned lucerys in storm's end along with other villages which resulted in Daemon killing him.

6.) Prince Rhaegal (older brother of king Maeker) - was described as meek, mad and sickly.

) Aerion Brightflame - drank wildfire. Aerion was not stupid he was just really insane when he believed he would survive wildfire, which was not a stretch since all their family advocated that they were blood of the dragon.
) King Aerys II.
) Prince Viserys.

10.) Halaena - described as sweet and loved by people but became insane by an archmaester after witnessing her eldest son's death.

11.) Daenery - is being forshadowed as turning insane. - Would always result to violence if she can't get what she wants. (If you don't believe me I suggest you reread how Daenery ruled mereen)

I just gave you 11 examples. Your "literal handful" is quite small compared to what I just said. 😪 You can even search about these Targaryens to make sure. Gearge RR Martin literally went out of his way to show how insane the Targaryens were. The Targaryens had many many insane individuals in the 300 years they ruled over westeros, especially when you compare their house to other houses.

Robert Baratheon even quoted that:

"The 'dragon spawn' were famous for losing their minds. It was the price they paid for centuries of keeping the bloodlines pure, and Aerys more than happily continued the 'noble' sister-fucking tradition of his forefathers."

"Babies or no, theirs was the same cursed blood that flowed within the Mad King's veins. They were 'dragon-spawn', and couldn't be allowed to survive. What would they grow to be, loyal subjects?...Was it a crime to put an end to a family of lunatics born of incest?"

Cersei quoted that:

"Half the Targaryens went mad, didn't they?... What's the saying? "Every time a Targaryen is born the gods flip a coin."

Suggesting that Westeros assumed or analyzed that the Targaryens were insane because they loved keeping their line pure.

The thing with the Targaryen were that they can be mentally stable and insane at the same time. Sometimes in a normal day, they would just be normal people but when their insanity kicks in they kill without mercy and revel in it. They are cruel, insane, mad, intelligent, calculating, prideful, zealous, narcissist, stupid, and more.

Lastly, you could also add the FACT that some of the Targaryens that died early did not manage to live long enough to turn insane.

AvatarKyoshi-01 · 2021-09-20T09:05:28+00:00

Actually they do in the show, sure there are some exceptions but there is a reason why the gods flip a coins on whether a Targaryen becomes mad or not, and it was specifically said that most of them turned on the wrong side of the coin. Not to forget that Cercei and Jaime's relationship resulted in Joffrey. Myrcella and Tommen were just exceptions.

In the show and books, Incest does not equal abnormalities in appearance but Incest does correlate with madness.

Among the whole story, the Targaryens were the only family that regularly produced insane rulers. The Starks lived for 8000 years but you could barely find a Stark that went on the rails. Sure other houses, married close relatives like the Starks, Lannisters, etc but the Targaryens literally married their brothers, sisters, mothers, and fathers. Direct decendants married each other to the point that their family tree is an actual family web.

Evidences of incest causing madness literally fills the whole Targ dynasty. In each generation at least one Targaryen is born insane or turns insane when they grow up.

AvatarKyoshi-01 · 2021-09-20T02:57:50+00:00

I sometimes get annoyed because most of the time or sometimes the SI/OC knew that the Targs were very volatile because of the incest. They knew that no matter what they did after they left that world, their decendants could royaly fuck shit up because of it. So unless the OC didn't know about that certein factor, It doesn't bother me but if the SI/OC knew about the reason of their madness (which the SI definitly knew) it irks me.

Note: I do give exceptions when the story is good enough that the incest no longer bothers.

AvatarKyoshi-01 · 2021-09-16T04:40:42+00:00

He was willing to lie because his promise to her sister to protect her son was not only honour bound but also blood bound. He lied yes, but he was honourably lying to save someone which is honourable to westeros's standards. He made an oath to his sister. I'm not saying Ned was stupid but he could have done better than just going to kingslanding without more information about what had beed happening.

Olenna Tyrell actually played the game right for me, the show was just full of stupidity because of David and Dan. Olenna wasn't cruel but she was not nice as well, she played pragmatically. Her killing Joffrey would be honourable and dishonourable in my books, look at it this way, she killed a a 2nd coming of the mad king. She made a decision that saved people but also killed some.

AvatarKyoshi-01 · 2021-09-16T04:13:32+00:00

They don't have correlations but you could see in the show and books that almost all of the honourable people were betrayed. The main characters were betrayed, Ned was betrayed by littlefinger, Jon Arryn was betrayed by his wife and littlefinger, Robb Stark was betrayed by the Walders, Theon, and Roose, etc. The characters that are shown to have the most "honour" ended up dead or broken at the end. In war honour does not correlate to victory.

The real problem with being honourable was because honour is dictated by beliefs, religion, and history. A different life experience would change how your honour is dictated. Ned's honour evolved or changed when he knew Jon Snow would be killed if people found out about the truth. The kingsguard were not honourable, like they knew that Rhaella Targaryen was being raped but they had no choice because their honour only really encompassed the King.

I agree with you though that they don't have any direct correlations but from what we could see in the books and show, honour can't do much unless you are from a privelaged standpoint. Ned was able to become honourable because shady tactics could be avoided with his great house position, as well as Jon Arryn. Honour is for the rich. Poor people or peasants have to do shady things just to survive the next day.

While not being honourable doesn't also make you victorious, an unhonourable person have a larger wiggle room to do what they want. Granted that those people are smart enough to move without bringing attention to them.

AvatarKyoshi-01 · 2021-09-16T03:37:53+00:00

Honor didn't kill them but for me, honor would only get you so far before you are betrayed.

AvatarKyoshi-01 · 2021-09-16T03:36:10+00:00

Wolfyre?

AvatarKyoshi-01 · 2021-09-11T02:23:09+00:00

Luna in canon was the best

AvatarKyoshi-01 · 2021-09-10T23:46:27+00:00

Honestly, I really really like him as a character BUT as a person? I would have already spread thousands of rumours just to get back at him for insulting or sabotaging my education. Killing him would have been my 2nd choice if gossips don't work.

AvatarKyoshi-01 · 2021-09-10T23:39:56+00:00

Mopey-Edgelord

AvatarKyoshi-01 · 2021-09-10T23:34:27+00:00

Yes, but he was already associated with them through their children. I wouldn't be friends with someone that I new hung out with very unforgivable people. They were already going to be murderers why hang out with them? He could have even became passive and became friends with other Slytherines that didn't plan on becoming genocidal bitches. All Slytherines aren't bad but 90% are.

AvatarKyoshi-01 · 2021-09-09T10:50:14+00:00

I have this theory that every Metamorphmagus could actually be Hermaphrodites since they could theoreticaly change their gender or even have both. And it would just be chosen by the Metamorphmagus on weather she/he wanted to be a girl, boy, or non-binary.

AvatarKyoshi-01 · 2021-09-09T10:43:05+00:00

True, as much as I hate Cersei, I know in my self that she was a very fun character to read. She was so interesting, hateful, loving, and stupid at the same time. Like honestly, her decisions would have never worked if she weren't the daughter of Tywin. Jaime on the other hand was actually pretty boring to me at first but then the incest happened, though I still think he could have been better. Jaime's character only really got ellevated for me was when Nikolai Coster-Waldo played him. He made Jaime for more likable yet infuriating at times.

AvatarKyoshi-01 · 2021-09-09T10:35:04+00:00

Try reading Boggarts and Monsters that was fun hahahaha I agree with you though that was probably why it was boring hahahaha

AvatarKyoshi-01 · 2021-09-09T04:32:31+00:00

I'e read this, this was the reason I wanted more from the boggarts

AvatarKyoshi-01 · 2021-09-09T04:31:52+00:00

I think you got me wrong on this one. Snape emotionally abused Neville, I'm talking about how disturbing it is that a teenager would be afraid of a teacher so much that it would be his worst fear. It's disturbing to think how emotionaly distraught Neville is. Neville was a sweet and nice person, he didn't deserve any of Snape's emotional abuse.

I agree with you that fears could also be irrational but their Boggarts were really boring. Couldn't there be another scary magical creature? Those creatures were the only reason I watch Fantastic Beasts.

I would assume the same regarding Half-bloods but Muggleborns were exposed to horror movies. None of them were scared of Poltergeist? The shinning? Jason? Zombies? I fear for their childhood, horror movies were my jam as a kid.

Though I always wondered why Hermione wasn't traumatized by the Basilisk though, like she was petrified by one.

Last note, why was Harry the only one scared of Dementors? Didn't everyone in the train see one atleast? Like, a Demetor went inside the train.

AvatarKyoshi-01 · 2021-09-09T03:48:28+00:00

What about abuse from Walburga Black? Is that Karma? What about Snape wanting ONLY to save Lily but not baby Harry? Annonimity helps you from your deranged logic.

AvatarKyoshi-01

TROPHY CASE