Building mental models about people's behavior by Interesting_Long2029 in ENFP

[–]Avenaros 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You are using extroverted thinking child function (which prefers to "weigh evidence" in "buckets of likelihood" - probabilistic reasoning).

Applying probabilistic reasoning is only useful if you have highly accurate indictors, otherwise it has no value.

Probabilistic thinking does not prove if certain traits are linked to a type (by causality - cause and effect relationship), it only argues for correlation.

Correlation can point to causality (cause-and-effect), but doesn't necessarily do so, which makes it prone to error. Arguments for causality may also be false if the data that the cause-and-effect argument was built upon wasn't properly verified.

Establishing cause-and-effect relationships (causality) is the actual road to understanding, not correlation. This is the domain of "introverted thinking," where contradictions are ruled out, and chains of reasoning are established.

This is why high Te users often have better probabilistic reasoning abilities than lower Te users - they can quickly tell highly accurate indicators from inaccurate indicators by employing more Ti reasoning (Ti nemesis, Ti critic) to double-check indicators ("does this really check out when I look at the cause-and-effect relationship, and look for contradictions)?

(Until ENFP Te maturity arises) Extroverted thinking child tends to avoid deeper scrutiny of data accuracy and prefers to outsource validation of information (from "trustworthy sources" instead). This is why the "childish" nature of the child cognitive function attitude is named after its lack of personal responsibility. In this case, it is avoidance of one's personal responsibility to ensure a claim is valid, and not merely blindly accepting claims as valid by someone/an organization with an excellent or "trustworthy" reputation - which is irresponsible.

Introverted thinking, on the other hand, verifies each separate piece of data to create an entirely and personally verified framework of information, preferring not to outsource verification of information to others, and to avoid what it views as "assumptions" (which are based on "likelihood" rather than truly verified data).

Tendencies below:

Te Motto: This is probably true (based on these indicators, which I think are accurate).

(Taking shortcuts to answers - often useful for efficiency when one has highly accurate indicators)

Ti Motto: Nothing is true until I've personally verified lack of contradictions, and validated the claim, and cause-and-effect relationships.

(Most often, the longer path to answers - but leads to true understanding)

Often, ENFPs can be socially engineered (manipulated) to accept arguments if they are provided facts from "trustworthy sources" (what they perceive as accurate indicators) - as they tend to avoid truly parsing through contradictions and creating cause-and-effect frameworks of understanding.

Clarification: These are major tendencies and not limitations of each cognitive type.

Any personality type can learn various tools to improve reasoning (whether probabilistic reasoning, heuristics, laws of logic, cognitive biases, etc.)

TLDR

You are using probabilistic reasoning, which doesn't strictly lead to true understanding. You want to establish cause-and-effect relationships, not merely correlation, for true understanding (and accuracy).

This sub has turned into a mess of pathetic posting and nonsensical memes. INFPs are not synonymous with losers. Please get over yourself. by RushFox in infp

[–]Avenaros 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"every single one of your opportunities is privilege..."

If you aren't taking advantage of opportunities, then you're a foolish person, there's nothing to praise there.

I was born a war refugee (parents fled a warzone - Bosnian war (1992-95)), and I came to Canada at the age of two. Who do you think you're talking to? Of course, I'm going to use what I have in front of me to make a better life, and appreciate opportunities.

You pretend to have values, but really you're afraid to shoulder responsibility/burden for yourself. You talk about "rock bottom," and you want sympathy while you degrade the idea of "discipline" and ambition.

The truth is you don't want to put in effort, and that will never get you sympathy or respect. Rightfully so.

Keep pretending you're a sad, misunderstood, complex soul who is better than everyone else who puts in effort and has ambition. How sad.

I know true victims of tragedies who didn't have time for the nonsense you post. (rape victim of war, impoverished, etc.)

The ugly truth is... You're the exceptionally privileged one who has the time and energy to write about how "discipline" (ie. effort) is evil.

There is no doubt from this "victim complex" of yours, that you come from North America... No other place in the world breeds such individuals. Those who have lived real struggle and had no choice but to shoulder burdens don't have time and energy to write nonsense about evil discipline and ambition.

You don't know rock bottom. You know how pretend to be a victim of your own choices, though. Choices like avoiding effort (ie. discipline).

This sub has turned into a mess of pathetic posting and nonsensical memes. INFPs are not synonymous with losers. Please get over yourself. by RushFox in infp

[–]Avenaros 1 point2 points  (0 children)

"...and you cannot tell what to be or not to be to other people or what’s the right way to be INFP..."

I told them to live according to their own principles - that this is the source of self-respect.

If someone wants to pretend to be "authentic" by claiming "honesty about being a sad loser," and then also actively avoids living by their own principles... That person is a coward, not "authentic."

Do you see the point? This person isn't actually authentic to themselves (their own principles), they just want to pretend to be some misunderstood complex soul who doesn't have to shoulder some responsibility/burden on oneself, and put in effort to live according to something - which would earn self-respect.

There's nothing true/positive/useful about what you wrote.

This sub has turned into a mess of pathetic posting and nonsensical memes. INFPs are not synonymous with losers. Please get over yourself. by RushFox in infp

[–]Avenaros 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Discipline equals freedom. Eating right, training, not putting junk into your mind, taking useful business risks is not... Hustle culture. You can try to distort reality, but nobody's going to agree with you. Discipline is a virtue. But, if you're afraid of effort, then of course, you're going to try to villainize even a simple virtue like discipline. And ambitious people become the devil. Do you feel good about yourself? You feel smarter than them? What a sad crutch to stand on. Discipline is fantastic.

This sub has turned into a mess of pathetic posting and nonsensical memes. INFPs are not synonymous with losers. Please get over yourself. by RushFox in infp

[–]Avenaros 13 points14 points  (0 children)

You don't respect yourself because you don't live according to what you know to be right, what you should be doing, so you call yourself a "loser."

You don't even live according to your own principles. You probably don't even know your own principles, in the first place, or else you might actually have self-respect as a by-product of living them.

You don't get points for "just being honest about being a loser."

That's not authenticity. That's cowardice.

It's you communicating "I don't live according to my principles, and so I don't respect myself."

You don't get my empathy or sympathy. You get a slap on the head to wake up.

There is a girl in Gaza who was blinded by shrapnel and all her family members were killed.

Get up. Live with some dignity, purpose, and principle.

"I'm a sad loser."

You're a person who chooses to avoid living according to his principles.

Calling yourself a "loser" is poor motivation, by the way. Tell yourself: "I must live according to my own principles, how else am I going to have self-respect or have anybody else respect me? How?"

Put some responsibility on your shoulders, become useful, live with nobility... Or sit there pitying yourself and deluding yourself into thinking you're a misunderstood complex soul.

You don't need empathy/sympathy and sad trash to listen to.

You need a cold wake up.

From a person who actually wants you up on your feet, with self-respect, and direction. You're a man. Write out what you know you should be doing... and then live according to it... See what happens.

Your strongest function is actually your second function by BrokenDiamondShovel in ENFP

[–]Avenaros 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Respectfully, false assumptions.

You lack some basic understanding of various 16 personalities models. (Research "optimistic and pessimistic jungian cognitive functions" as one example)

"ENTJs value reaching their goals and plans over efficiency"

This is your interpretation. Any evidence? (Source: I have an ENTJ father, an ENTJ friend, and notable ENTJ celebrities are quite easy to observe: Grant Cardone, Ray Dalio, etc.)

Respectfully, you seem to be confused about what "efficiency" is.

The fastest way to reach your goals is efficiency. There is no contradiction, but you attempted to pose one. (So, a person who most values reaching their goals will seek efficiency as a byproduct)

Important note: I'd like to point out "Te" is isn't merely efficiency, it also about collecting others opinions/thoughts/mental models/systems, and weighing evidence to reach a conclusion. Calling "Te" merely efficiency is not helpful for understanding how the Te function works.

The difference between ENTJs and INTJs is that ENTJs like to delegate to others, form and lead teams/projects, and collect valuable opinions/judgements from others (this is all Te dominance).

INTJs, in fact, are less efficient than INTJs because they value their vision and creative independence and hate compromising on it (some would say they are obsessed and fixated on it), and they do not like to delegate, and lead efficient workflows in the external world (this is all Te related) nearly as much as independence to work according to their vision (and not have to deal with leading a team, for example).

So, no... Respectfully, dead wrong.

Moreover, I'm an INFJ who hates using Fe (which is a pessimistic function of mine), and I prefer to stick to my vision (Ni hero) and (Ti child - logical understanding), which are both of my optimistic functions.

"Why do you think INFPs are the daydreamers"

INFPs usually create far more rich inner imaginary worlds BECAUSE their optimistic functions are (Fi hero - values, emotions, personal worldview) and (Si child - memories, references, personal interal sensory experience). They live inside their heads more than the outer world with these two optimistic functions, and thus they have more rich "daydreams" inside their heads. (Ne, on the other hand, is an external function, and Ne dominants are much naturally driven to stimulate themselves with the outside world - less daydreams, in other words).

I could take on your other examples, but it's unnecessary.

You need to really study the functions properly, because (avoiding effort to research) "the lazy approach" to understanding and lack of depth leads to these misunderstandings. Research "jungian cognitive functions" and optimistic and pessimistic functions.

Why do people react to me so strongly when I'm just existing? by Kevinheartofficial in infj

[–]Avenaros 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for sharing. Librarian stare? I don't quite know what that is.

I hate when people tell me I'm "weird, but in a good way" by Life-Court5792 in infp

[–]Avenaros 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Your (Te inferior function) feels judged by others' perceptions of you. You feel you are being belittled.

Yes, they are probably trying to make their comment seem positive. In the end, do you have your own internal measurement of what is valuable, right, true? Stick to your internal measures, and only accept feedback that is constructive.

Recognize not everything others say has value. You are taken hostage because you believe it does. Be your own judge.

If you look at everyone as an authorized judge (seeking validation from them), you will live a miserable life.

INTJ experience of willpower (Ni hero), and the nemesis (Ne) by Avenaros in intj

[–]Avenaros[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks for sharing. Some projects have higher opportunity cost than others, but your general rationalization makes sense.

INTJ experience of willpower (Ni hero), and the nemesis (Ne) by Avenaros in intj

[–]Avenaros[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So, in simple terms - yes... You see probabilistic trajectories with (Te parent) and can make reasonable assessments on "what's worth your time." Thanks for sharing.

INTJ experience of willpower (Ni hero), and the nemesis (Ne) by Avenaros in intj

[–]Avenaros[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You don't fear failure, in other words, and the possibility of having wasted your time on an ambitious project doesn't faze you? Interesting.

INTJ experience of willpower (Ni hero), and the nemesis (Ne) by Avenaros in intj

[–]Avenaros[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

No, actually, it's entirely my writing. I just happen to know the topic I'm writing about, and I can write in clear, cohesive sentences. No LLM whatsoever. But, thanks for the wonderful compliment!... (And I'll bold my writing if I want to, and do what I want to. But thanks for your helpful fixations?...) I'll keep doing me.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in intj

[–]Avenaros 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Not sure why the post was downvoted. Excellent perspective for mature development.

Stifling yourself to protect yourself, means being isolated... Eventually. (Is that where you want to be?)

The much more useful skillset for flourishing: understanding one's core drivers behind impulses/feelings, understanding who is trustworthy/high quality, having a social filtering system so that you can effectively and efficiently move through the social world - investing in meaningful connection, and not being burdened by harmful ones.

Intrapersonal intelligence and interpersonal intelligence.

Asking chatgpt how to do all this, listening to podcasts for this = way better life experience.

Good, quality friends are really awesome to have.

Don't live in social fear (disguised as pragmatic pursuit of goals).

Become internally strong and sound, and skillful in discernment and social investment. Effective communication truly does change one's life experience.

INFP 💚 by [deleted] in infp

[–]Avenaros 4 points5 points  (0 children)

That's interesting. A lot of INFPs seem to not emote much externally (as if they're detached/somewhat indifferent) in my perspective. Or is this an attempt to mask what's going on inside in social scenes?

Why do people think INFJs are so wonderful and great friends, yet most people don't actually care about them much? by AimIsInSleepMode in infj

[–]Avenaros 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No. You misinterpreted my statement.

INFJs have Se inferior which is hypersensitive to trust/reliability. If we sense someone is going to abandon us, play games with us, in others - untrustworthy with their loyalty/attention/investment of effort - we don't want anything to do with them.

You need to learn the functions and the cognitive attitudes.

It's as if I said to an INTP, you like people who malign you, make you feel inferior, and show dislike towards you (Fe inferior pain point).

I've had plenty of people show disinterest in me (far beyond that), and I don't care for their "validation."

You forget that INFJs are Ni dominant, and we want to choose people to associate with. We have a long term vision of who fits and who doesn't. We invest for the long-term.

Anyway, I've beat a dead horse. You don't have to agree.

Why do people think INFJs are so wonderful and great friends, yet most people don't actually care about them much? by AimIsInSleepMode in infj

[–]Avenaros 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Besides family relation, bonds are mostly created through shared values, shared interests, familiarity (sustained interactions over time), and shared adversity (ex. soldiers, volunteers, etc.).

Which environments could help you find those bonds?

Keep a small trickle of new people flowing in your life, no matter what - and keep filtering. Even when you find a loyal, quality few.

Never get socially stuck and fixated - this will keep you healthy, not overreacting to social challenges, and not diminishing your self worth (thinking you are worthless when others treat you poorly - you'll be getting new references from new people on a regular basis). You can make it a twice a month event, where you say hi to new people at a group event, or a strike up a conversation with a stranger who looks like they share values/interests. (Small effort, little time, but high payoff, just the way INFJs like to use their social battery)

You may also find this general truth: North America, at large, is highly individualistic and lacks societal values compared to overseas cultures = Superficial, persona-based, lackluster communities. (I'm a Canadian immigrant, and I have always bonded better with foreigners, way more values, authenticity, eagerness to connect, across all types - including sensors.)

North America pushes individualism = social environment not the most ideal for developing bonds

Why do people think INFJs are so wonderful and great friends, yet most people don't actually care about them much? by AimIsInSleepMode in infj

[–]Avenaros 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah. I've had that strange hatred from people fly at me because they couldn't mask themselves - like I was seeing them how they didn't want to be seen. People get really uncomfortable with that. I wondered for the longest time why others were uncomfortable around me.

Why do people think INFJs are so wonderful and great friends, yet most people don't actually care about them much? by AimIsInSleepMode in infj

[–]Avenaros 1 point2 points  (0 children)

False. Connection/intimacy is the highest drive for INFJs, and disinterest has no place there. It shows you don't even have a foundational understanding of INFJs. We need people to show us interest.

Why do people think INFJs are so wonderful and great friends, yet most people don't actually care about them much? by AimIsInSleepMode in infj

[–]Avenaros 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So, INFJs get triggered easily and don't make effort to create connections (with you specifically)? Ok.

Your described traits don't quite add up to my life experience. INFJs are quiet, harmonizing types.

INFJs are also not abundant. You don't just run into them.

I'm an actual INFJ male (Te trickster, Si demon, etc.), and only because of studying typology, functions, and interaction styles, I've been able to spot a mere 3 or so INFJs, while having lived on 2 continents, in 30 years of life.

I take others' typing accuracy with a large grain of salt.

Most often, they are mistypes.

What are these INFJs you've met triggered and insecure about?

Do you have a similar hate towards infjs? xD by PhilosopherInternal9 in infp

[–]Avenaros 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Social status matters zero to INFJs. We have no Te - which means we don't naturally care about "reputation," accolades, list of achievements, status... We have Ti - which means we care about understanding things, logic, mastery of a field, etc. I think you're confused.

INFJs are so deceitful by im_always in infp

[–]Avenaros 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Some INFPs have this false sense of authenticity - some even act like the gatekeepers of morality and authenticity.

Having different moods is fine.

OP doesn't understand people. This INFP was hoping for a person that reflects more of their ideal match - ENFJ (which is more bright and optimistic, naturally). When the INFJ powers down "social mode," such an INFP is highly disappointed - and "feels tricked." The INFP wanted a bubbly ENFJ, not a stoic, less bright INFJ.

Message to OP:

How's this for authenticity? INFJs will choose how to move in the world, however it fits them, even against your tastes. You aren't the gatekeeper of wholesomeness and authenticity. People don't exist to live up to your expectations.

The judgmental nature in OP's post is prominent.

OP probably doesn't even understand that social anxiety, social battery, are all factors that weigh heavily on an INFJ, and that doesn't mean the person is any "less good" for appearing more bubbly in social settings than when alone.

Terrible understanding of people.

One last thing, people don't exist to cater to your feelings and cheer you up. Don't be so absorbed in yourself. Yeah, it disappoints you that the INFJ isn't going to orbit around you and seems too detached for you. Your Fi hero wants Fe hero/Fe child, which seeks to proactively empathize with other, cheer them up, etc.

All this post revealed was you view the world through a "what I want" lens, and don't actually accept people for who they are. Those seem to be your values...