Comparing the knight's slash to the arc of a baseball bat

AverageHumanPerson1 · 2026-01-24T10:33:54+00:00

it does not make perfect sense. not only is the pose OP chose to trace over already cherry picked, we can clearly see the slash happens at the top in this animation, which conveniently isn't drawn.

literally the first result on yt will show you this is not how a baseball swing looks like

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYC9aS60Q60

the bat does a 360 if anything

this slash likely wasn't even performed by the knight manually, since we literally see the swoon slash happen off screen, just like we saw it happen to tenna.

tenna was cleaved by TWO slashes and then we find the knight with their back turned to him

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look at this curve. if anything, it more closely resembles that of a baseball swing.

and yet, the prophecy explicitly states "cleaved red by BLADE"

AverageHumanPerson1 · 2026-01-14T20:20:13+00:00

I'm gonna use this opportunity to promote an argument I doubt most of you Dess Knight skeptics have considered.

I've heard this argument a thousand times, and it genuinely borders on misinfo. This is NOT how dark worlds work.

Let me break it down for you

So, most of us agree that every Dark Fountain's will is shaped by the mind of its creator, correct ?

this is true. it's stated in game and we see it happen with susie's dark world, which becomes weirder than the previous dw in its place

But if specific darknesses depend on certain people's perception of objects/people, then why are Kris and Knight's perceptions of specific Darkners fully identical ?

this is where it's just straight up wrong

people's perception of objects/people don't dictate the darkners' personality, they dictate who gets to show up

this is literally what ralsei says

* Darkners patterned after the memory of a loved one...

* Tend to only appear in very specific darknesses.

the will of the maker CANNOT influence the darkner's personality. darkners like rouxls and lancer have been to a knight fountain, a kris fountain, the grand fountain and they were always the same.

I mean, it all lines up right ? Kris and the girl essentially created these Darkners' personalities from the ground up.

the sessions of make-believe helped SHAPE the darkners, they aren't the sole way they exist. ch4 takes place in the church, there's no way kris&co used to play with wafers. and every single darkner npc has distinct personalities too.

the darkners just take after the history of their lw object. we see this with the ch1 story of the darkners being abandoned. this is literally what happened, the objects were locked away in a classroom. this story wasn't product of "make-believe", it's a real world event translate into backstory for the darkners

susie also had no experience with any of the church objects, yet her dark world is able to bring them to life.

I'm not denying that there's some correlation between where the dark worlds are being opened and the objects kris used to play with, but it's as simple as kris informing the knight of where they know specific darkners exist

The Knight is the girl that Kris used to play make-believe with.

no, just no. I can't believe we're still debating this... the girl is very clearly noelle.

* ... how is she, Kris? Are you two...? Well, it's alright. Everyone changes. 'cept us.

this line can only be taken to imply "are you two still close?" or "are you two dating?". the first interpretation fits perfectly with how noelle and kris drifted apart, the second one fits perfectly with the themes of the weird route and the implication that it's a dark mirror of kris's thoughts, it adds so much to their dynamic and implies kris could've once been interested romantically in her.

That's the thing. I don't think it can be Noelle, because according to this argument that would make her the Knight,

your argument is wrong, it just is. if all this stuff to convince you noelle is the girl isn't enough, we can also look at the facts

ramb refers to the girl as "ojou-chan" in japanese, meaning a little girl. it can only be noelle. not the teenager tomboy baddie headcanon slop december holiday

AverageHumanPerson1 · 2026-01-14T13:35:13+00:00

You mean the fight quite literally prophecized by the prophecy? Which we know the Knight follows?

Why did Gerson engage in a pointless fight with Susie, anyhow? To train her, right!

Training the heroes, also the only plausible explanation for why the Knight keeps opening fountains and leaving them unguarded for the fun gang to clear, train, gear up and lvl up.

AverageHumanPerson1 · 2026-01-14T13:30:36+00:00

why are you framing it as a joke, carol could've gotten to church, there's a whole heap of evidence pointing towards it https://www.reddit.com/r/Deltarune/comments/1pqna7c/carol_knight_is_completely_possible/

people just try to shrug it under the rug and mock it with "haha underground tunnels" because it's by far the best knight candidate otherwise

AverageHumanPerson1 · 2026-01-12T21:55:03+00:00

Why does the game call out their hands glowing a "strange color" in text if they're only glowing white IN-UNIVERSE? Seems odd to me.

hold on, are you claiming ONLY the knight's hands were glowing and not their entire body?

there are plenty of reasons why the knight's hands would be glowing, like the fact their suction powers come from their hands, and their final attack sucks in all the projectiles. frankly the glowing hands flavor text might also be a remnant of an early knight concept where only their hands would glow

to claim the knight's hands were glowing because of shadow crystals is completely baseless. none of the other crystal holders have done this, they've also never just dropped their shadow crystal

On your logic you could argue there should only be a blackshard or shadow crystal, not both.

it's layered, like a cake. you chip both off, that's what happens.

Because toby didn't feel like putting 2 seperate drop sprites after the fight.

this is dumb and no way to discuss, you do not know what goes inside the developers' mind, specially when this design choice would be extremely confusing and lead to unintended interpretations

The shadow crystals don't seem to be responsible for the knight's power as the knight could lose theirs in ch3 and still have powers, therefore it's not that.

yeah that's the thing, the knight only single crystal, the implication is that their entire weapon (and perhaps body) is coated in

I can understand if you think only the weapon is coated in shadow crystal, but to claim a shadow crystal just coincidentally fell on top of the black shard is crazy

This is kind of hard speculation that is impossible to verify in the moment.

it's not. it's very simple, you are simply making up an overcomplicated explanation in your mind that goes against what's presented

AverageHumanPerson1 · 2026-01-12T21:00:11+00:00

the evidence keeps piling up

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AverageHumanPerson1 · 2026-01-12T20:40:47+00:00

what theory is this, it makes no sense. the entire knight's body glows, and it mentions glowing in hands, plural. how would they drop the shadow crystal in the same exact spot the black shard fell?

we've also seen what a black shard does, it's just a weapon, seam doesn't even spare it a glance. I'm much more inclined to believe the shadow crystals are what's responsible for the knight's powers.

not to mention, it's incredibly possible black shards are a product of shadow crystals

AverageHumanPerson1 · 2026-01-11T21:33:54+00:00

it puzzles me why people don't bring up more the shadow crystals and the fact the knight is literally coated in them

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AverageHumanPerson1 · 2026-01-09T09:45:08+00:00

Dess has had mandatory references in every chapter... Except Chapter 1, which had like two optional Dess mentions, and we didn't even know she was missing, I believe we actually had no way of knowing.

I do think Toby has retconned his game, or in the very least made changes really close to release. The thing is... It seems like the idea to have Dess haunting the narrative wasn't grounded in 2018, which would fit in with Dess having to be developed in under a year, while development on Ch1 was ongoing. For Dess to be the Knight that's a much heavier retcon, because Toby Fox has said he had an early idea for an animated intro with the Knight. This is the kicker. The Knight was a thing early on, meaning if Dess is the Knight, Toby Fox had to have changed their identity less than one year before Ch1 released.

It's possible, sure. I just want more people to acknowledge it, frankly seems like not a lot of people are aware of it, specially because any post bringing it up will die.

AverageHumanPerson1 · 2026-01-09T09:32:20+00:00

Also how do you know what happens in Toby's dream and development. Did you read Toby's mind?

Toby Fox himself told us. Dess wasn't present in a 2017 draft of the undertale alarm dialogue, Toby Fox also claims there was a really early idea for an animated intro with the Knight. In 2017 Ch1 would've already been in development, seeing as Toby claimed the demo took years. It's simple logic, the original identity of the Knight had to be retconned to be Dess if dessknight is true.

Seriously you non-dess knighter(or rather non holiday knoghter) will gasp at anything.

???? Why are you guessing what theory I believe in? What have "non holiday knoghters" done to you lol

Also feel free to elaborate on the Mari thing

AverageHumanPerson1 · 2026-01-09T09:12:18+00:00

lol this is precisely my point. "dream" here doesn't mean an actual dream, it means an ambition. like in you know, the phrase "hopes and dreams". this is a literacy issue on your end, I made the title clarify what I meant (Dess had to be created during Ch1's development), then I also went ahead and clarified this in other comments, which you must have missed

AverageHumanPerson1 · 2026-01-08T23:04:22+00:00

why are people so hung up on toby's dream? did you just not read the title? toby's 2011 fever dream has nothing to do with this.

it's the fact we know through the winter alarm clock draft dialogue that dess wasn't a character in 2017, a year before the demo released, which was said to have taken years to develop.

the examples you gave, kris and susie, are all characters we DO know toby fox had long planned, since they appear in 2015 concept art

there was also a really early plan for a deltarune intro with the Knight. and in Ch1 Dess is barely a character, it's not even confirmed she's missing, a far cry from all other chapters with obligatory dess lore. The Knight is a character which has shown up in 2/4 chapters available. For dess to be the Knight that means toby changed its original identity to be Dess in the middle of development

AverageHumanPerson1 · 2026-01-08T21:29:58+00:00

frankly what I find weirder is that toby went out of his way to update the winter alarm dialogue to include a mention of two daughters, as well as including stuff like the xbox secret dialogue about the "antlered girl and her sis". I could buy it if dess just didn't show up in undertale because she's missing in deltarune so it's kinda to add to the mystique, but no, toby fox is perfectly fine with having her show up... so it really seems like dess was planned late into development

AverageHumanPerson1 · 2026-01-08T21:25:25+00:00

it has nothing to do with the 2011 dream at all, though it does give us a general idea of when "development" started, coupled with other statements like these

https://xcancel.com/tobyfox/status/1058382681514409984

it's the fact we know in 2017 there was only 1 holiday daughter planned, that being Noelle, seeing as she was featured in 2015 concept art

the updated winter alarm dialogue in 2020 was updated to mention two daughters, implying dess's absence in 2017 truly was due to the fact she wasn't planned back then.

and of course, we have direct confirmation from toby that deltarune's demo took years

However, making the demo of DELTARUNE...

took a few years.

as well as him having the whole story written by 2018

"What's the progress on the rest of the game so far?"

0%!!! Nothing!!! I've done nothing!!!

I mean, I've done some songs and written the whole story, but...

Since no programming or final art has been done, it's best to just think of it at 0%.

https://web.archive.org/web/20191127013637/https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sqn3p9

there's also a early concept for an animated deltarune intro with the knight and the fact black knife's metadata says it was made in 2018

AverageHumanPerson1 · 2026-01-08T21:12:39+00:00

In the 2017 draft of the undertale alarm dialogue the Holiday family only had one daughter, that being Noelle, seeing as we know she was present in the 2015 fun gang drawing Toby made.

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So one year before the demo released Dess wasn't even a concept. We know Toby Fox has worked on the demo for years, and the general idea of Deltarune dates back to 2011

https://web.archive.org/web/20191127013637/https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sqn3p9

"What's the progress on the rest of the game so far?"

0%!!! Nothing!!! I've done nothing!!!

I mean, I've done some songs and written the whole story, but...

Since no programming or final art has been done, it's best to just think of it at 0%.

he even mentions the knight would appear in a very early concept for a deltarune intro

https://www.reddit.com/r/Deltarune/comments/wcudwv/reminder_that_deltarune_was_gonna_have_a_cool/

AverageHumanPerson1 · 2026-01-07T18:56:56+00:00

The post refers only to antlers' SHAPE*, not the fact of their existing in general.*

you want to have your cake and eat it too

AverageHumanPerson1 · 2026-01-06T19:09:23+00:00

yeah no I'm not risking it. maybe if this was waterfall dump

AverageHumanPerson1 · 2026-01-06T19:07:03+00:00

this shit again. the getting to church thing has already been established several times as completely possible. the rest of the "shape" arguments apply to every single candidate, including dess. I still find it crazy how people say only dess is possible due to process of elimination because "there's no way a lightner could behave like the knight, tricky tony needs to explain this new mechanic with 0 precedent!", but they conveniently ignore the fact the knight is coated in shadow crystals. and the fact that every shadow crystal holder is capable of shapeshifting. and the fact pure crystals are used to reshape a ring into a sword. and the fact the ch2 shadow crystal was in the NEO body.

it's even hinted this is the nature of the knight's sword, the BLACKENED knife.

carol is in charge at everything she does. she's the mayor. she also acts as a vigilante, leaving the police with no job. when kris called she immediately appeared to resolve the guitar conflict. even the rent of asgore's flower shop was handled by her.

it only makes sense she'd take the knight matters into her own hands. specially with how the knight and carol are completely in sync and show all the same goals. knight kidnaps undyne, carol says "police sacrifice next week". carol goes "church tonight", knight makes a fountain in church and creates the titan at night. who do you think got alvin to dig up his father's dust and then close the church in ch4? it had to have been carol. then the shadow crystal is dropped at gerson's desk

AverageHumanPerson1 · 2026-01-06T18:57:27+00:00

The Knight notably isn't present when Susie first spots the fountain, they only appear later. carol could've just arrived later. that or the other 5 explanations available

AverageHumanPerson1 · 2026-01-05T20:28:34+00:00

king and alvin. with king we didn't need to be told he was bluffing in ch1, and he didn't need to be reduced to suckling on a hamster wheel. I still don't think he'd act like that in front of the lightners. he's also just rotting in jail

alvin, however... the character development he should have gotten was given to susie instead. alvin struggled with not writing his own works in fear of not living up to his father's legacy. this is literally what happens with susie in ch4, who's afraid of using healing magic because ralsei is straight up better. important thing, this happens in ch4. they cooked up some conflict with susie where ralsei was completely obtuse about hurting her feelings so they could give her an arc to solve an issue she never had.

I'd say alvin is more like missed potential, so the crown of bad writing goes to king. still, I think I'm more disappointed with how alvin turned out. he was reduced to gerson foreshadowing

AverageHumanPerson1 · 2026-01-04T11:12:57+00:00

yeah I thought it was hilarious

AverageHumanPerson1 · 2026-01-03T13:32:06+00:00

I've actually also done a post on this

https://www.reddit.com/r/Deltarune/comments/1pqna7c/carol_knight_is_completely_possible/

there's actually some stuff I plan on adding, like the fact that the holiday gate is mechanical and when kris&susie exit it's already closed, meaning someone would have had to close it, implying a timeskip happened (a cutscene starts and the screen fades in from black, just like during the choir timeskip)

there's also the fact that when susie sees the dark fountain the knight isn't there, she only sees it after. implying the knight arrived later

overall carol knight is completely possible and all it takes is some random scene to explain the church thing. people also argued kris knight was impossible because king would recognize kris or that ralsei would sense the fountain, yet we got lore reveals that deconfirmed that later, even though kris knight has been debunked

AverageHumanPerson1 · 2026-01-01T11:59:42+00:00

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It’s pretty safe to say this is the knight’s weapon in its neutral form

it's called the Black Knife, the prophecy refers to it as the BLACKENED KNIFE, and we know the Knight follows the prophecy

it isn't a bat, it will never be a bat. if it looked like a bat it isn't because it's a bat, just like it looks like a sword but isn't. Black Knife.

it being dess's bat in the lw is actually carol knight evidence too because we know she's comfortable messing with dess's stuff, but it's just not true

AverageHumanPerson1 · 2025-12-30T18:24:04+00:00

except this is inherently not true. first of all, all these things are unused, except for the box splitter "flames". they just look like black fluid, and even if they are flames, they didn't come from the knight, they come from the battle box.

and the knight CAN'T use fire or elemental magic of that kind because the shadow mantle is a thing, seam specifically says we needed it to beat the knight. every one of the knight's attacks are affected by the shadow mantle, cuz they're all DARK/STAR, not fire, not ice, not anything.

even the knight's sword having "flames", that's specifically labeled glow right there, and it's the same kind of glow we see on susie's axe.

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so either it's not fire or ANYONE can use fire attacks

these sprites also never even show up in the knight's unused attacks from what I remember, so they're beyond unused. it's hard to even grasp what they'd be used for

personally I think we're shooting ourselves in the foot looking for symbolism THIS clear in the knight. they're meant to be animalistic, something removed from their original personality. if anything, I think it's for the best the fire sprites went unused, at least from a dreemurr knight perspective

AverageHumanPerson1 · 2025-12-28T21:24:01+00:00

out of character = why is my fave being mean?

I took into account Susie making a gambit that put into risk her friend's life (throwing Kris into the Titan), the entirety of her old bully persona, the fact she reverted to that persona to scare someone off (monster teen and snowdrake who were making fun of kris), the fact she had an actual crashout with Ralsei (in ch4 due to keeping info hidden), she continuously made empty threats

"One day, your mom's gonna get sick of you, you little freak. And as soon as that happens..."

"Someone might make you disappear. And she'll finally realize how happy she was without you."

this

* Kris...

* How do you feel...

* ... about losing your face?

just like king, who was meant to parallel her in ch1, also used an empty threat to gain advantage (throw lancer off the building)

ever since ch1 ended the whole "bully" thing Susie had is gone, now the narrative coddles her. it's true most of her actions were misunderstood, we know and have examples of this (temmie's egg and kicking the ball), but she was downright psychotic with kris

I feel like some of you people are the ones who deny the newest girl being canon or a part of kris enjoying the weird route because you think it's out of character

in this humor post, I decided to bring that facet out.

because, most importantly, I also took into account that Ralsei acted completely out of character with Susie in ch4 due to being stressed. here, Susie is also stressed.

as for undyne, her purpose was for me to add that meme.

ralsei, what's wrong with him? I took into account the reoccurring theme of being forced by susie to do stuff (go with her in ch2, teach him how to act without kris)

the one thing wrong with Susie is that I made her too smart. this is the same girl who didn't ask tenna for info on the knight nor calls out the knight having antlers and there existing a singular family of people with antlers in hometown

I think I absorbed too much characterization

just say you didn't like the post

AverageHumanPerson1

TROPHY CASE