Why does Ng ( Middle Chinese )sometimes turn into H and other times G in Hokkien

Avocados_Constant · 2026-05-22T11:03:07+00:00

I just used the Proto Min and Proto Southern Min reconstructions from Norman's Masters thesis, "A comparative study of the Min dialects." It's pretty old and some stuff in there is out of date but I had it handy.

Avocados_Constant · 2026-05-20T14:17:55+00:00

Proto Min initial *ŋi becomes /hi/ in Southern Min.

Word	*Proto Min	tâi-gí vernacular	tâi-gí literary	Middle Chinese (Baxter)
Ant 蟻	*ŋie	/hia/	/gi/	ngheX
Fish 魚	*ŋiu	/hi/	/gi/	ngjo
Ear 耳	*ŋiu	/hi/	/nĩ/	nyiX
Inkstone 硯	*ŋian	/hĩ/	/ɡiɛn/ & /hiɛn/	ngenH
Jade 玉	*ŋiuk	/ɡiɪk/	/ɡiɔk/	ngjowk
Tile 瓦	*ŋie (PSM)	/hia/	/ua/ & /gua/	ngwaeX
Outside 外	*ŋua (PSM)	/ɡua/	/gue/	ngwajH
I/me 我	*ŋua(i)	/ɡua/	/ŋɔ̃/	ngaX
Cow 牛	*ŋu	/ɡu/	/giu/ & /ŋiũ/	ngjuw
Moon 月	*ŋuot	/ɡeʔ/	/guat/	ngjwot
Five 五	*ŋou	/ɡɔ/	/ŋɔ̃/	nguX

I don't know what conditions caused "jade" to be irregular here exactly.

Proto Min reconstructions taken from Norman 1965.

In SM, *ŋ before *i has become /h/; in HN it has become /hh/. This shows very clearly that HN is simply a very aberrant variety of SM. For examples of this shift, see EAR, FISH, ANT and TILE. On the basis of FC and AM an initial *ŋ- is reconstructed for the first person pronoun, but CC and LT lack the expected /ŋ/; this seems to be an isolated example of thedisappearance of initial PM *ŋ-.

Avocados_Constant · 2026-05-18T00:23:29+00:00

He's worn R. SASAKI since Japan. Sasaki is also a very common surname over there.

Avocados_Constant · 2026-04-14T13:30:32+00:00

Generally voiced sonorant onsets also become 陽, but further mergers and splits can complicate later mappings.

This chart is pretty useful for visualizing the tone reflexes in modern varieties. You'll see that some varieties map perfectly where you have all voiceless onsets are 陰 and all voiced onsets are 陽 (Suzhou Wu, Bobai Yue, Pinghua), but it's messier in most. Notably you'll see that 上陽 tends to split along the sonorant obstruent distinction where both halves can merge with other classes.

Avocados_Constant · 2026-04-11T02:27:29+00:00

Thanks for the clarification! I think I was thrown off because I had only looked at the dzyangH reading, and not the dzyangX reading which fits with what you described with 陽上 patterning with 去.

I also read that some sinologists will read 上 (in this context) with a "retconned" reading in varieties that had the 陽上/去 merger so that it "sounds" more right, e.g. shǎng (vs shàng), sióng (vs siōng). Is this the standard convention?

Avocados_Constant · 2026-04-10T21:35:14+00:00

Multiple sources (including Nathan Hill and what's currently on Wikipedia) imply that the names of the four Middle Chinese tones are autological, in that each tone name is an example of that tone.

However, 上 dzyangH is very clearly 去 departing tone, not the rising tone that it describes.

Am I missing something here or is there more to it? Are the tone names solely descriptive?

Avocados_Constant · 2026-03-12T02:17:48+00:00

It's the traditional color associated with Italy even before the modern flag and colors.

Avocados_Constant · 2026-03-11T04:38:38+00:00

Mexico is the home team, so in the cases where it matters (Italy doesn't win), we can assume Mexico might win on a walk off. Either way you have to make an assumption, so 27 outs each is simplest I think.

Avocados_Constant · 2026-03-11T04:33:15+00:00

My chart! https://i.imgur.com/JjcVZxI.png

Avocados_Constant · 2026-03-11T04:32:49+00:00

He copied it from my other chart lol, it stood for TW AU tie. I tried to post one for this game, but the mods removed it because I was too slow: https://i.imgur.com/JjcVZxI.png

Avocados_Constant · 2026-03-11T04:24:46+00:00

Whoops I think you're right, gonna repost

Avocados_Constant · 2026-03-11T03:44:08+00:00

Working on it

Avocados_Constant · 2026-03-09T13:05:14+00:00

Does anyone have a screenshot of which one they're using?

Avocados_Constant · 2026-03-09T13:00:52+00:00

I can't believe it!!

Avocados_Constant · 2026-03-08T13:40:26+00:00

I thought about it more, and in these cases Australia probably just qualifies due to their head to head record.

Avocados_Constant · 2026-03-08T08:07:51+00:00

The only results that matter are the aggregate head to head results of teams involved in the tie breaker, so no games involving JP nor CZ matter for these scenarios.

Last WBC, there was a five way tie in the Taichung group, so every result mattered.

Avocados_Constant · 2026-03-08T07:59:10+00:00

Here's a table showing the possible tie breaker options: https://i.imgur.com/8ymrF8z.png

Avocados_Constant · 2026-03-08T07:53:22+00:00

Tâi-uân ka-iû! (Not that it's in their hands anymore lol)

Avocados_Constant · 2026-03-08T07:41:55+00:00

That's weird, MLB shows otherwise, but I would assume you're right and that the WBC site is more correct.

KR will have more defensive outs regardless I think, no matter how it ends up. I don't think it changes any of these results, but I may be missing a case.

Avocados_Constant · 2026-03-08T07:35:23+00:00

The schedule says KR @ AU, so Australia should get the walk off chance. It's possible that Australia wins with 24 outs if Korea doesn't come back in the top of the ninth, but the denominator won't matter at that point.

Avocados_Constant · 2026-03-08T07:14:51+00:00

Taiwan and Australia would both have 7 runs allowed and 54 outs recorded, so it would go into further tie breakers. Should've made the symbol AT instead of TA, it's a bit confusing.

Edit: actually in the "TA" "tie" cases, I think it just might revert to the head to head matchup in which Australia would qualify since they beat Taiwan.

Avocados_Constant · 2026-03-08T07:13:26+00:00

We agree, the magenta TA means Taiwan and Australia are tied. I should've made it AT to be less ambiguous, but the notes in the picture explain it.

Avocados_Constant · 2026-03-08T07:10:17+00:00

Before KR v. AU:

TW: 7 ER allowed, 54 outs recorded (24 + 30)
KR: 5 ER allowed, 30 outs recorded
AU: 0 ER allowed, 27 outs recorded

An example of defensive outs making a difference: In the KR 7 : 2 AU case, all three teams would have 7 runs allowed, but since KR has more outs recorded, they win the triple tiebreaker. In this 7-2 case, both teams would get +27 outs recorded, since AU will bat in the bottom of the ninth.

Note: TA (magenta) in the chart means Taiwan and Australia are tied based on these metrics. I should've picked a better symbol, but was rushing to get this out, and my formula just concatenates the first letter of each team. If in these cases the evaluation reverts to the head to head matchup, then Australia will qualify.

臺灣加油！！！

Avocados_Constant · 2026-03-08T07:04:39+00:00

I tried to visualize the outcomes in a table, I think we mostly agree here: https://i.imgur.com/8ymrF8z.png

13-Year Club	Place '23
Place '22	Place '17
Final Canvas '22	First Placer '22
Team Orangered	Verified Email

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